John Savage wrote:
"jones" writes:
the account is higher each time I get it. Actually I don't get it. Then I
think, why do I bother wrecking my back even further!

Get a lock fitted to your outdoor taps ASAP. I think your neighbours
might be topping up their swimming pool from your garden tap!
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
Yep that could be happening. You know their neigbours do ya John?
The fact is now the water supply companies are fitting the bills with a
"supply " charge, much the same as Telstra do when phone calls go down
due to people using their computers for phone calls using VOIP.
The less you use the more they charge. I once had a H.E.C. electrical
(EX Tasmanian) inspector come through my house to see why we weren't
using as much hot water electricity, (dual meters there ). I had
enclosed the Hot water service and we now weren't loosing as much heat,
so it was using less power. They get very paranoid when we use less than
expected...

Jonno wrote:
Re Dams. Of course you cant make it rain more, but you can spread the
catchment areas. The spin doctors who tell you "dams don't increase
rainfall" are using dams that catch the available rainfall. Using the
stupid argument that dams don't increase rain is correct but wrong in
reality. We need them where the rain IS falling. That can be anywhere.
So you spread your catchment areas...In our case South Gippsland. I'm
particularly concerned about Victoria. They have decided to go hand in
hand in having a increased population and at the same time not providing
dams in catchments that ARE having rainfalls. Instead, they're putting
in a desalination plant. Putting up the cost of water....


.... and ... umm... you can predict how damming 'newer' catchments will
affect things like stream flow, velocity, the water table, salination
levels and availability of potable water for wildlife (oh - and
people!), can you?

In 200 years of drought and aridity, don't you think there have always
been reasons why 'new dams' haven't been employed in the places where
you think they should?

Just because rain falls in an area doesn't mean it's safe to dam and
collect it! What about the Bonanza Dilemma (first saw it on 'Bonanaza'
in about 1962): if you dam the headwaters of a stream and enjoy the
benefits of its water for your purposes, what about the poor bloke
immmediately downstream? What about the even poorer bloke half-way to
the sea? The distraught bloke in the tidal zone?

Not only that, but the ways in which streams form and runoff contributes
to creeks and rivers is not only determined by precipitation. Other
factors, such as soil porosity, the existence of bedrock or otherwise,
the integrity of the substrates etc etc etc all come into play. Some
areas where rain falls plentifully may not be suitable for damming, even
though there *appears* to be a plethora of water. Porous soils, for
example, often mean that the majority of the rainfall disappears almost
immediately into the ground. In the opposite case, the rain may run off
(often beneath the soil and vegetation cover, but above a non-porous
bedrock such as granite or basalt) to wind up in a completely different
catchment area. Damming the existent stream may cause untold damage to
an already delicate habitat (which includes you and your water needs!).

Hydrology is an incredibly complicated field of study. I've only done a
tiny bit of reading and that a long time ago. But I do know a few of the
reasons why tampering with streams, damming injudiciously and
interfering with naturals systems can cause untold and often irreparable
damage. Look at the Snowy River! Who'd have thought such a 'beneficial'
scheme would cause such mayhem?

My personal soapbox is a dreary little local stream in my area. Forty
years ago, powers that be thought to dam it off and prevent the seasonal
flooding that interfered with roads, grazing, transport and so on. Now,
all these years later, the stream is dead, having been dammed and
contained in an artificial concrete bed for so long. When the stream
does run, the water is emerald green and serves only to move a massive
payload of orphan shopping trolleys a few metres closer to the Big Drain
in the middle of town.

This stream, in my living memory, was a paradise of wildlife back when
it lived! We caught tadpoles and penny turtles from its banks, climbed
the sheoaks in its meadows and counted the numerous species of birds
that lived off the fish in its waters. AND the commercial concerns the
original damming was supposed to have helped are all gone! All of them!
When the big Newcastle Flood occurred just recently, the water had
nowhere to go because the natural waterways in and around town have been
so stuffed up. Instead of following the natural drainage patterns, the
excess water backed up in eutrophied, clogged drains and took the line
of least resistance. THAT'S what happens when you bugger up waterways
without fully understanding what you're doing.

My opinion (and you, of course, have a perfect right to your own) is
that water is so scarce in this country, we can no longer afford to make
disastrous mistakes like those made on the Snowy and the Darling. We
need study, conservation of *all* resources and cooperation between all
interested parties.

Oh, and PS. A desalination plant is a good idea! It makes use of water
that has been tainted by the surface salts that wouldn't be there if so
many trees hadn't been removed from your catchment!

--
Trish {|:-} Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Jonno wrote:
Re Dams. Of course you cant make it rain more, but you can spread the
catchment areas.

lol, sorry, but that is based on the assumption that you can build a dam
everywhere, which isn't the case.

Far better to become more efficent users of water and remove the
porcelan throne.

Jonno - you could be right too.

ps - no swimming pools in this area. :-)

Katherine


The fact is now the water supply companies are fitting the bills with a
"supply " charge, much the same as Telstra do when phone calls go down due
to people using their computers for phone calls using VOIP.
The less you use the more they charge.

They get very paranoid when we use less than
expected...

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:16:43 GMT, len garden
wrote:

g'day katherine,

if it is the bottom line? ie.,. the money factor that is rising with
each bill then that is the nature of the beast hey?

regardless of what happens they are simply going to charge more and
more and more. wait until it is federaly controlled and sold off to
private profit rakers.

we currently don't use any of their water but we still pay for it.

now if you are using more and more water then you best do an audit i'd
suggest, and as has been suggested read the meter when there is a
quiet time ie.,. at night after everyone has retired to bed turn
toilet taps off and direct everyone no to use water then before water
is needed the next morning read the meter again if it has moved then
you have a leak somewhere. the dripping tap is very obvious.

another way follow the new slogan "if it yellow let it mellow - if it
os brown flush it down"

too much drinking quality water gets wasted flushing waste water.
alternatively use some of you grey water to flush toilet solids use
water twice at least.



On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:28:21 +1100, "jones" wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

We are checking the meter numbers and they seem to be going up without us
doing anything. There are no dripping taps, so it may be in the pipes
somewhere.

We rang the Water Board and they said to get a private plumber to check it.

My question - has anyone else had this problem, and would the plumber have
to dig up all the concrete to get to the pipes? :-(

Is there an easier way for him to check for leaks?

Thanks for any suggestions.
Katherine

g'day katherine,

they can test along yout pipes for teh leak and once they find it yes
they may have to dig up concrete major work, in some constructions the
pipes are in the cement slab of teh home that is very major work and
none of it will be cheap, apart from the disruption of it all.

if it came to some or any of teh above i'd be looking to see if that
section could be bipassed even if you had visible pipes running along
the bottom of an outside wall.

have you noticed any wet patches that seem forever to dry out that
could indicate where the problem is. those hidden in the wall shower
units can leak inside the wall and cause timber damage as well, they
are a big job to replace usually means pulling out that section of
inside wall, if it is the shower then do yourself a favour and have it
replaced with one of those chrome or brass external units they are far
easier to maintane and lots cheaper to do as well, and they can't leak
inside the wall.

out of sight - out of mind - out of pocket, plumbers gold mine, the
joys of modern building practises.

the bifg downside of modern home builkding with all plumbing conceled
is when there is a problem it can be biggun. and be sure any new
copper pipe doesn't mmake contact with the cement reaction between the
2 can cause pipe failure.

for now at least each evening fill some bucket or dishes to get you
through the night and turn off the maind tap. get a number of quotes
and diagnosis there are plumbers then there are plumbers.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:42:44 +1100, "jones" wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

Thank you Len,

Some good advice there in your reply. A lot to think about.

Katherine



"len gardener" wrote in message
...
g'day katherine,

they can test along yout pipes for teh leak and once they find it yes
they may have to dig up concrete major work, in some constructions the
pipes are in the cement slab of teh home that is very major work and
none of it will be cheap, apart from the disruption of it all.

if it came to some or any of teh above i'd be looking to see if that
section could be bipassed even if you had visible pipes running along
the bottom of an outside wall.

have you noticed any wet patches that seem forever to dry out that
could indicate where the problem is. those hidden in the wall shower
units can leak inside the wall and cause timber damage as well, they
are a big job to replace usually means pulling out that section of
inside wall, if it is the shower then do yourself a favour and have it
replaced with one of those chrome or brass external units they are far
easier to maintane and lots cheaper to do as well, and they can't leak
inside the wall.

out of sight - out of mind - out of pocket, plumbers gold mine, the
joys of modern building practises.

the bifg downside of modern home builkding with all plumbing conceled
is when there is a problem it can be biggun. and be sure any new
copper pipe doesn't mmake contact with the cement reaction between the
2 can cause pipe failure.

for now at least each evening fill some bucket or dishes to get you
through the night and turn off the maind tap. get a number of quotes
and diagnosis there are plumbers then there are plumbers.

jones wrote:

Is there an easier way for him to check for leaks?

It really is about money. Plumbers do not come cheap and competent
plumbers can be rare.

Len's comments are spot on about looking for wet ground, etc. If you can
find the leak yourselves, you can save a lot of the plumbers time and
your money.

The alternative is replacement. If you think about it, if you have to
dig up extensive lines of piping, then you have done the hard work and
might as well replace it with new stuff.

According to the Bill, we only use $20 worth of water, the rest seems to be
sewerage charges etc, so maybe we don't have a leak - just their charges
have been going up and up.

Also on the graph at the bottom of the Bill, it shows we are using more than
this time last year (we were an extra body here last year).

Maybe......... could it be a faulty meter. I really don't want the whole
yard and driveway dug up. The kitchen, bathroom and laundry were done from
scratch 20 years ago.

There doesn't seem to be any wet areas around the place :-(

Will keep you informed of this saga. Thanks for all your help(s).

Katherine




The alternative is replacement. If you think about it, if you have to dig
up extensive lines of piping, then you have done the hard work and might
as well replace it with new stuff.

yes work out an alternate route for the pipe from the mains to the
house, i've done it before and if you can do some digging whatever
that will save you heaps, jobs like theses are like gold mines to
tradesmen.

a neighbour needed an ag drain fitted because of a water issue feeding
down the hill under ground from down pipes, plumbers wanted up to
around $2k or more at the time and the best bit they had no idea if
what thery where going to do would even work (they have no knowledge
is what he meant no common sense). and prices me neighbour couldn't
afford.

anyhow because this water was a minor issue in my place i was already
thinking about an ag drain down the fence on the neighbours side, so
when this came along hey presto even better, so i used me nut a bit
so to cut a long story short $600 later and few blisters on me
neighbours hands (he was younger than me without the back problems)
and a tad of advice from the digger bloke the ag drain worked a treat
amazed us realy stopped the problem.

look for someone with ethics

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:49:19 +1100, "jones" wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

"jones" writes:
Maybe......... could it be a faulty meter. I really don't want the whole
yard and driveway dug up. The kitchen, bathroom and laundry were done from
scratch 20 years ago.

I'd reckon the meter will tick over only if there is flow through it.
So while your property is using no water, then the meter will not advance.

I think my water board will check a meter for a fixed charge and if the
meter is found to be faulty they will refund their meter-check charge.

You could maybe check your own meter. Turn on a garden hose and ensure
all other taps, etc., are off. Allow the flow to stablise and measure
the flow (litres/min) from your hose by filling graduated buckets or
some such. Note the water meter reading. Water the garden for an hour,
checking every 15 mins that the flow rate is held constant. After an
hour record the increase in your meter's reading. Compare the reading
with your calculated increase.

You can often hear water escaping from pipes by listening to the pipe
at another location. I don't know whether this will work for under-
ground leaks, but I'd try it. If you can borrow a stethoscope from a
friendly doctor you can try listening to the pipes around your
property first with the mains tap turned off, then with it turned on
but all other taps off. The lounder the sound of whistling, the closer
you are to a place where water is escaping. I deduced that the owner
in another unit had a dripping tap because I could hear the pipes
'whistling' when I put my head close to my washbasin while brushing
my teeth. I left her a note about getting leaking taps fixed and the
whistling soon ceased. I bet she wondered how I knew she had a dripping
tap in her unit! We don't have individual water meters in my unit block
so when one resident wastes water, we all generously share the expense!
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)