Large scale permaculture
 

len gardener wrote:
whatever john?

for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to
raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?)
intelligent
human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed
in
our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to
implement.

but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place.

So you don't have a proposal, you just want to "raise the wareness"?
Why not instead work toward finding a solution that will work and then
proving that it will work? But no, you'd rather just "raise the
wareness" because that doesn't actually require any _effort_ on your
part.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Large scale permaculture
 

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:31:42 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote:

Note that something that works in Cuba, where the population density
in Havana is such that there is almost 5000 square feet of land for
every resident, is not necessarily going to work where the population
density is more than ten times as high.

Worth noting also that Cuba is closer to the equator and hence has
longer daylight hours pretty much all year and thus can grow more
vegetation than most densely populated cities in OECD countries. I can
imagine Australia and New Zealand coping, but don't hold out high hopes
for some American cities like New York.
--
Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia
"Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn"
- The Wee Book of Calvin

Large scale permaculture
 

In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

len gardener wrote:
whatever john?

for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to
raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?)
intelligent
human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed
in
our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to
implement.

but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place.

So you don't have a proposal, you just want to "raise the wareness"?
Why not instead work toward finding a solution that will work and then
proving that it will work? But no, you'd rather just "raise the
wareness" because that doesn't actually require any _effort_ on your
part.


--

The main thing to being a good conversationalist, is being a good
listener. No one is offering a 5 year plan but we know what the results
should look like. There are many roads up the mountain. What we are
doing now hasn't worked, isn't working, and won't work in the future.
Mining the top soil is a horribly bad idea.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Large scale permaculture
 

"len gardener" wrote in message
...
g'day david,

as humasn we need to get aways from the broadacre export farmer
mentality, the cost to habitat destruction is huge, and it also
impacts on our weather ie.,. reducing our chances of rain in the
droughts that are part of earths cycle. the b/a farmers here decimate
vast aeas of habitat on somewaht merginal ground, and after around 7
+- years they simply move on and leave the newly created desert behind
there is no requirement as there is with mining to rehabilitate the
area as they further encroach.

our farmers need to be in our communities where on small holdings
maybe up to 40 acres +- they produce in season staples for those
communities and supplied from farmer to consumer no middle man, the
farmer then gets to share the common wealth of his community, instead
of the way they now do it through a series of middle men who onsell
not so fresh food at prices people can barely afford and not
representative of what the farmers meager offering was.

like that adelaide hills thing that land should basically be returned
to habitat is has always been very marginal land (why do people think
the farmers walked away from it after they ahd milked it for waht they
could?), anyone living there should alocate enough land use for their
own personnal food needs, as any commercial venture sooner or later is
driven by the need for more and more turn over.

people can grow enough of the non staples their family needs in a very
small space, we had this type of system back in the late 40's and into
the 50's+, fresh in season food was affordable for all families, and
the food miles was very low so another positive factor, the farmer
casme around a couple or so times a week selling fresh produce, or we
went to the farm. eggs were right there as fresh as the day from the
farm, and fresh unadulterated milk was delivered intoi 1 gallon
stainless billy at our front door not sure may have been each second
day?? homes should be modest enough and land sufficient enough for
families to grow some of their own.

so to me the permaculture sustainable farmer is the one who is moving
closer to his consumers, not lauding themselves growing stuff on
denuded dry habitat land.

mollison uses those asian communities in asia where the farmer is a
neighbour and produces all the staples for that neighbourhood, makes a
lot of sense and no good putting it in the too hard basket because if
the oil crisis is as bad as what is indicated then our broadacre
farmers are going to have huge problems getting their produce to
market at an affordable profit making price.

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:15:17 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

Len I seem to have missed this post somehow and gone on to reply to you
further down the thread - maybe I have a propagation problem, I swear I
couldn't see this yesterday.

Anyway I find much good sense in what you say here. I recall fondly the
market gardens embedded in or close to the city and it does make sense in a
world where transport costs are set to rise hugely. But how to stop or even
reverse the trend of turning such areas into housing?

David

Large scale permaculture
 

"Billy" wrote in message
news:wildbilly-0C1D70.23375308042008@c-61-68-245- all tall buildings have
rooves?

there are balconies?

Very harsh environments for growing, with much effort you could get some
boutique crops but not enough to really matter. It would be very
inefficient.
Are you not listening? This is how Cubans get fed. If you don't want to
eat, continue on with your ignorance.

Please spare me the attitude. I will take it that you feel strongly about
this and so get a bit carried away sometimes but I would rather hear from you
in a civil way about your passion.

Are you seriously suggesting that the roofs and balconies of large urban
buildings are a suitable place to grow food? Have you ever tried to grow
anything in that situation? The wind and heat (and added heat island effects)
make your water consumption huge and anything tender gets burned.

I see in your quote that the author claims this happened in the Cuban
situation. I don't have the book. I don't know what the city buildings of
Cuba are like or how they managed this, I will take your word that it happened
at least on some scale.

I doubt that roof/balcony gardens in the big cities of my acquaintance
(Sydney, Melbourne) are ever going to produce more than a supplement to the
diets of the inhabitants and that would be at a great cost of materials.
These cities are looking at permanent water restrictions and great increases
in the cost of water. Squandering tap water in this way is pointless. Roof
water is insignificant in high rise due to the high ratio of people to roof
area.



most cities have large parklands?


Yes but the people need them. Sure strolling through a nice vege garden
is
relaxing but what of those who want to play sport etc?
They won't feel like playing sports if they are hungry.

You seem to be assuming there will be a great catastrophe and that drastic
measures will be required to survive. My original question was about whether
permaculture was a suitable replacement for broadacre farming, I am more
interested trying to find ways of not having a catastrophe.



melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by
occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments.


Melbourne is quite low density compared to the mega cities. The Aussie
1/4
acre block is very uncommon in many places. We have no experience of what
really high density housing is like.

and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market
farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the
city proper where all could access it by various public transport, now
the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to
get there.


And those market gardens have been swallowed up by housing developments
that
can hardly be torn down now. The population is 3 times what it was then.
The
institutions and organisation of 60 years ago will not serve for the next
60.

Same in California, good agricultural land used for housing tracts. Just
totally mindless.
and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city.

and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become
very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop
the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent
enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in their
shoes at any time.

in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit for
up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times?

i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it is
way too late maybe?

outside the square and the comfort zone.
With peace and brightest of blessings,


I support your philosophy that major change in how we deal with the world
is
essential. And backyard and inner city growing plots would certainly be a
step in the right direction. But this will never be more than a minor
part of
the calories required to feed a big city.

You are just blowing this out you burro. Read about the Cuban solution
before you make such stupid comments.

I did read it. Convince me that it translates to other situations.

How would it be applicable to a medium sized low density city like Melbourne?

How would it be applicable to a huge high density city like Tokyo?

Look at the people who are doing this on a small scale (ie one or a few
families). They need acres to do it. Evan if yields could be increased
many
times (doubtful, especially in Oz)
Oz has the oldest and most depleted soils on the planet but it still
seems with crop rotation and green manure, the situation could be turned
around.

You make it sound so easy. I would like to see numbers.

those acres just aren't available in or
near big cities, nor are the numbers of skilled people prepared to
lovingly
tend them.
Some American you are. The American answer is supposed to be, why not?

I am no sort of American. The references to Melbourne and the Aussie 1/4 acre
block and the poverty of Australian soils was not there to confuse. But let's
leave nationality out of it.


Local can be 100 miles, an hour and a half to two hour drive. If you can
eat a plant within hours of its' harvest, you're not doing too bad.


It's in that ring area about 1 1/2 hours from the city centre that so much
good land is getting turned into housing estates. I agree with you and Len
that there is a problem there. I don't see how to fix it though, do you?


It is this very problem of the efficiency of scale that made me ask the
question in the first place.
I guess the question is what do you consider EFFICIENT? You won't mind
if the rest of us eat while you explain.


This is the third shot you have taken, what's it for?

How did we go from agrarian economies to the present? By huge increases in
specialisation and efficiency. Sadly broadacre farming has serious unwanted
side effects and demands inputs that are going to be much more expensive or
not available in future. I mention efficiency because it must be a factor in
any system of sustainable growing that replaces the broadacre farming. In a
future of very limited resources where the per capita consumption of resources
will have to be reduced in countries like yours and mine how can we
countenance inefficiency?

David

Large scale permaculture
 

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

They'll go and spend 2 bucks buying a plastic packed bunch of miserable
coriander rather than spending a few minutes putting in a few seeds and
doing a bit of watering now and then. A whole seasons worht of coriander
could be had for the 2 bucks they spend, but they'd rather buy it than put
in a small effort.

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with
only two leaves bolt before...

They already DO have that problem. But given that consumers don't bloody
care how many food miles their food has done, just so long as they can eat
what they want, when they want, it is consumers who will get hit time and
time again till they get a bit smarter and start to shop smarter. I cannot
believe that any Australian would buy oranges produced in California, but
the shops are full of them and they sell.

There was the time I bought a few lemons -- and I KNEW that lemons were in
season at the time, and assumed they were local -- got home and saw the word
California on the stickers! Aiee!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Large scale permaculture
 

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:41:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:
snipped

Len I seem to have missed this post somehow and gone on to reply to you
further down the thread - maybe I have a propagation problem, I swear I
couldn't see this yesterday.

Anyway I find much good sense in what you say here. I recall fondly the
market gardens embedded in or close to the city and it does make sense in a
world where transport costs are set to rise hugely. But how to stop or even
reverse the trend of turning such areas into housing?

David

g'day david,

some here think that this is my idea totally? but that is so they can
protect their comfort zones at this time. i responded to your post,
and along with what mollesin and holmgren also say we need change and
as you poijnted out it needs to start at some point or the change will
be harder and harder to do.

it took around 40 or 50 years for us to be taken to where we are now
so it could easily take that long to turn around. so it is no good
anyone exposing the hind quarters with their head in a bucket of sand,
you know what happens while your behind is exposed hey?

this will take a drive from the whole community, but alas once we say
never then never it will be. there is a lot more food could be grown
at home than what there currently is so even there, there is no effort
going on.

but anyway unless something new comes along this will be my last
response as i see it i'm only a messenger, the problem is already
occuring.

we need farmers with insight who can see that even without the
permaculture label (which is about all you can realy say) they need to
be very much more sustainable, and the farmers won't budge until
pressure comes from the community.

every time i see tv shows of england i see this monolithic castles and
edifaces with vast areas of well kept lawn and pretty gardens, yet i'm
sure like here there are people in those communities that are short on
food, so waht if you have to walk along paths between productive vege'
gardens or fruit trees to get to the building.

food does not grow overnight it takes time for all crops to mature.

take care mate.

With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

Large scale permaculture
 

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...

I doubt that roof/balcony gardens in the big cities of my acquaintance
(Sydney, Melbourne) are ever going to produce more than a supplement to
the
diets of the inhabitants and that would be at a great cost of materials.
These cities are looking at permanent water restrictions and great
increases
in the cost of water. Squandering tap water in this way is pointless.
Roof
water is insignificant in high rise due to the high ratio of people to
roof
area.

you might be over-focussing on roof growing, here, david :-)

sydney & melbourne have a lot of land space in people's yards. while back
yard (and balcony!!) fruit & veg growing seems insignificant, it's not
really (particularly when you consider how common it was once and (i dearly
hope) will be again. have you seen any of the designs (e.g. clive blazey's)
for food gardens in the ordinary smallish yard? it's actually fairly
impressive. considering that farming itself (on farms) isn't going away any
time soon, i can't see that there'd be too many problems anyway, but
certainly cities like sydney & melbourne would be fully capable of most
(although not all) householders growing a surprising quantity of fruit & veg
_if they wanted to_.

added to that, another of c. blazey's "things" is substituting food plants
for ornamentals (food plants being handily ornamental as well, nice that). a
tiny yard (such as i had myself in sydney, various locations) with some
ornamentals can be refigured to a tiny yard full of food plants. i doubt
that such a yard could meet all the householders' needs, but you need to
consider how much they _could_ produce. as more people make such changes, we
will know more. it's endless really - small town near here has a strip where
the street trees are fruit trees (possibly planted by householders, i don't
know). people are thinking of new ways to make gardening more vertical, to
handle small spaces. etc. i have lived nearby to food-oriented gardens in
the burbs of canberra! hence that is why i believe they're more common than
we think, and are entirely practical too. anyone could do it.

You seem to be assuming there will be a great catastrophe and that drastic
measures will be required to survive. My original question was about
whether
permaculture was a suitable replacement for broadacre farming, I am more
interested trying to find ways of not having a catastrophe.

i think the poster's point is that cuba actually had that catastrophe, but
they turned it around. in a crisis, people are galvanised. until such a
crisis, well, they're not, & until then tend not to think about the problem,
even. this is actually a problem, because things like "loss of agricultural
land" or even "climate change" don't really affect anyone in (say) sydney at
this time. they cannot conceive what the problem might be. yet, we all know
that in an unforseen severe crisis, you could starve the population out
within a week (although it actually takes longer than a week to starve to
death, of course - say 3 or 4). there's no food storage there beyond 3 or 4
_days_, it would be (relatively) easy (for an Organisation of Baddies) to
block the roads so nobody could go in or out. really!

now, i doubt that will ever happen of course, but equally i doubt the
populace even realises how vulnerable they potentially are. the cuban
situation was apparently national, so therefore a bit more easily solved by
the populace as a whole. gardening is entirely empowering, for quite obvious
reasons. what a high-density mega-city could or would do i don't know, & i
must admit it's really not my problem, so i don't have any intention of
devoting more thought to that.

It's in that ring area about 1 1/2 hours from the city centre that so much
good land is getting turned into housing estates. I agree with you and
Len
that there is a problem there. I don't see how to fix it though, do you?

get the developers on the run! g seriously, in nsw it is looking like
developers' days of doing whatever the hell they like are going to be, of
necessity, numbered. not a bad thing, that.

How did we go from agrarian economies to the present? By huge increases
in
specialisation and efficiency.

no, because the industrial revolution happened!

"huge increases in specialisation and efficiency" really only occurred in
the way that (i assume) you are thinking of, post ww2. hello, herbicides!

Sadly broadacre farming has serious unwanted
side effects and demands inputs that are going to be much more expensive
or
not available in future.

it's also not AT ALL efficient in the way (i assume) you are thinking of.
for example, backyard veggie gardens are massively more water-efficient than
a broadacre veggie farm & more able to supply their own inputs. small farms
are more efficient than big ones. sheer magnitude does not equal something
being genuinely efficient - it brings a certain economy of scale, but in
every other way is less efficient - even growth and plant health is not so
good, because it's monocultural, so you don't get the returns per square
metre that you would on a small, mixed farm. so yes, the cost of inputs is
inefficient as well, and the undesirable outputs impinge seriously on any
genuine "efficiency". someone told me recently (no idea how true it is, but
it doesn't sound "wrong" to me based on my observations) that with broadacre
farming, you only expect to make 6% over your inputs (ie. make $106 dollars
for every $100 spent) which doesn't count the eventual cost of damaging
outputs. by any measure, that is wildly inefficient & is going to have to
change rapidly.

I mention efficiency because it must be a factor in
any system of sustainable growing that replaces the broadacre farming. In
a
future of very limited resources where the per capita consumption of
resources
will have to be reduced in countries like yours and mine how can we
countenance inefficiency?

we can't countenance it now, yet we do :-)

solutions would include: smaller, more mixed farms. farms focussing on
growing crops or livestock which work in the conditions that exist, not to
continue trying to alter conditions when it can't be done. the populace
growing more of its own food (whether that means in one's own yard, or
buying locally, as directly as possible). further reducing the import sector
(which actually is quite small at the moment in terms of food, thankfully -
to not allow this to increase whatsoever, and actively work on reducing it
to near-zero). active governmental preservation of agricultural land
(including putting their foot down re expanding cities even more). proper
support for farmers - rather than bailing them out of disaster after
disaster, to aid in remaking the farming sector a bit & utilising knowledge
which is there, so that people are getting good outcomes for all, rather
than struggling on as is, inefficiently & in some cases disastrously. to
educate the public (this isn't going to happen this week - as i said the
govt wants you to buy a cabbage, not to grow one. most governments need
their heads read on this matter - they are simply _wrong_.) there are lots
of things to be done, it's a question of will, not of possibility.

two other things i was told recently by different people, neither of which i
have checked, but include as discussion points perhaps - firstly, that john
macarthur's obsession with sheep put the mockers on other peoples' ideas for
farming more suitable livestock. secondly, that a chicken farmer needs
(iirc) 20,000 birds to be considered a primary producer. (20,000!!! i
consider 20 birds to be primary production! ;-) clearly, there's a bit of
re-thinking that needs to be done. re-thinking is good.
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...

all these things are interrelated. thank you for reading my rant! :-)
kylie



Current economic dogma says you must have growth around 3% per year for a
healthy economy. Nobody knows how to do it with much less without having
unacceptable unemployment. Thus the current model condemns us to be
constantly expanding: population, energy use, mineral use, land use, must
all
grow indefinitely. Except that obviously in the real world they cannot.

Political systems around the world that reward short term popularity and
punish long term planning don't help.

we know that the current model doesn't help - it's getting the beancounters
& other bottom-feeders to accept that is the problem. the first world govt
to actively remake the situation is going to be everyone's hero.

of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. &
crushed for the next 50 years ;-)
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:59:33 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:


of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. &
crushed for the next 50 years ;-)
kylie


Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our
Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in
Iraq.

truly?! my goodness.

Got Oil!

(er, won't all the oil be gone by then?)


Foo, we yanks, gonna grab it all. All for us and none for others.

**** me, hurry and put us out of our misery and save yerselves.

Charlie

well, not to rain on your parade, but self-hating americans are nearly as
tedious as the other kind! g! i know, it hurts to realise that nothing
about yourselves is unique or particularly interesting in either a good or a
bad sense, but you'll manage :-)

have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite
and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the
general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great
deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you
want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?)
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

Chookie wrote:

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with
only two leaves bolt before...

Lol, I know exactly what you mean.

Large scale permaculture
 

In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:59:33 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:


of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. &
crushed for the next 50 years ;-)
kylie


Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our
Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in
Iraq.

truly?! my goodness.

Got Oil!

(er, won't all the oil be gone by then?)


Foo, we yanks, gonna grab it all. All for us and none for others.

**** me, hurry and put us out of our misery and save yerselves.

Charlie

well, not to rain on your parade, but self-hating americans are nearly as
tedious as the other kind! g! i know, it hurts to realise that nothing
about yourselves is unique or particularly interesting in either a good or a
bad sense, but you'll manage :-)
I beg to differ with you 0tterbot. We Americans seem to live in a
strange state of schizophrenia. Most people who meet us find that we can
be charming and thoughtful, yet most people would say that our
government is self-serving at best, and at worst, criminal. We consume
25% of the worlds energy and presently have plans to continue fouling
the air that you breath by extracting fossil fuel from oil shale and tar
sands long after the Saudi wells run dry. Global warming just may be a
new marketing opportunity;-) Our government, with our tax dollars,
spends 40% of the worlds budget on weapons. That means that we are a
bunch of dangerous motherf***ers. We are also the world largest arms
suppliers, so any war is a good war for us:-) You, my friend, have no
control over the 800 lb. gorilla in the cage with you, we do, and don't
exercise it. I am always impressed that a six month old child from
anywhere sounds and acts the same. We are all born equal (no nation has
a monopoly on saints or sinners) but the tribe that we are born into
determines our personal power and pecking order. We, the Americans, are
in a position to exert pressure on that gorilla. Charlie, was selflessly
ignoring his tribe, and beseeching his brothers and sister of our
species to save humanity. Can you imagine his hubris?


have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite
and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the
general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great
deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you
want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?)
kylie
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Large scale permaculture
 

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:14:17 -0500, Charlie wrote:

Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our
Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in Iraq.
Got Oil!

They call themselves the Project for a New American Century for a reason.

Large scale permaculture
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message

have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite
and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that
the general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a
great deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my
head. you want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?)

There's something about Obama that I feel is a bit plastic. Dunno what it
is but I just haven't warmed to him.

Large scale permaculture
 

"Terryc" wrote in message
Chookie wrote:

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant
with only two leaves bolt before...

Lol, I know exactly what you mean.

Plant in your winter. You must both be in a much hotter climate than I am.
I had huge bushes and I planted in spring.

Large scale permaculture
 

"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-E4EAEC.23360110042008@news...

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with
only two leaves bolt before...


I only grow it during the winter, it's frost hardy.

David

Large scale permaculture
 

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:28:55 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:
have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite
and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that
the
general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great
deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you
want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?)
kylie


What? He's sucking up to the new big money since our economy is going
down the shitter? What a louse. :-)

no, i meant that sincerely!! i am very impressed. it's not many p-m.s who
can or would tell the chinese (in mandarin) that they have a few human
rights issues!


You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.
*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

well, don't ask me!

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
Charlie wrote in message

What? He's sucking up to the new big money since our economy is going
down the shitter? What a louse. :-)

no, i meant that sincerely!! i am very impressed. it's not many p-m.s who
can or would tell the chinese (in mandarin) that they have a few human
rights issues!

I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very impressive.
I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of languages that
he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses and start doing
something.

Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only
sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet.


You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.

The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see
through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet convinced
that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she certainly has
baggage.

*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g

:-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they aren't
universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an exception to that
grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look beyond his borders.

It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us
having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up with
current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone trying to
know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that being the most
powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady mix.

I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are
and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at what
other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to our
benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and because we
all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we travel a lot.

Large scale permaculture
 

Love Kevin,
Love his approach, but lets face it.
You cant change course overnight re change of government.
It seemed to me that the Libs were acting as if they knew what was
around the corner before they lost the plot.
With pipelines being blown up, English oil workers on strike, they have
all the excuses to have every ones budgets blow sky high.
Better be careful in investing, except locally.
French Truffles look like a good market to be in...
Weather had better shape up this season.
We will all be in trouble.
Seems like the government knows this, and so restricting what
supermarkets are doing to farmers prices. And about time too....
Re human right issues, we may have a few locally too, with our natives.
Thats the pommy influence of past generations.
Lets get it right this time.




FarmI wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
Charlie wrote in message

What? He's sucking up to the new big money since our economy is going
down the shitter? What a louse. :-)
no, i meant that sincerely!! i am very impressed. it's not many p-m.s who
can or would tell the chinese (in mandarin) that they have a few human
rights issues!

I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very impressive.
I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of languages that
he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses and start doing
something.

Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only
sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet.
You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.

The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see
through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet convinced
that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she certainly has
baggage.

*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g

:-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they aren't
universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an exception to that
grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look beyond his borders.

It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us
having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up with
current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone trying to
know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that being the most
powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady mix.

I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are
and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at what
other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to our
benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and because we
all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we travel a lot.

Large scale permaculture
 

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very
impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of
languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses
and start doing something.

Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only
sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet.

well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts, so what can one do? in the
meantime, i love the way they are going through like a dose of salts. we
NEEDED it!

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

but i can forgive a bad tie in someone who i sincerely believe is all set to
do the right things, not awful things like ahem did.

You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.

The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see
through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet
convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she
certainly has baggage.

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither of
them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g

:-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they
aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an
exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look
beyond his borders.

charlie is noice. :-)

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their way)
individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many ways. that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling. i think some
chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests when
it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken personally.

It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us
having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up
with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone
trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that
being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady
mix.

I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are
and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at
what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to
our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and
because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we
travel a lot.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very
impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of
languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses
and start doing something.

Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably
only sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet.

well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)

Sweet Fester Arbuckle, but they really have to do something PDQ when they do
sit again because it's now stretching out a bit too long.

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts,

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then at
least someone in the Government.

so what can one do? in the
meantime, i love the way they are going through like a dose of salts. we
NEEDED it!

No doubt about that. A major purging.

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

but i can forgive a bad tie in someone who i sincerely believe is all set
to do the right things, not awful things like ahem did.

You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.

The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see
through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet
convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she
certainly has baggage.

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither
of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb decisions
are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond their
borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily (choke)
send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is that although
he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very careful about his
commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn numbers, not that we could
send too many anyway given our other international commitments.


*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g

:-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they
aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an
exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look
beyond his borders.

charlie is noice. :-)

Shhhhh. Don't let him hear you say that or he'll get a swelled head!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many
ways.

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the line
about 'queue jumping'.

that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling.

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))

i think some
chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests
when it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken
personally.

It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us
having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up
with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone
trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that
being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady
mix.

I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are
and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at
what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works
to our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and
because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we
travel a lot.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got my
Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()

Large scale permaculture
 

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)

Sweet Fester Arbuckle, but they really have to do something PDQ when they
do sit again because it's now stretching out a bit too long.

hm, i tend to think that they are, somewhat. i don't know. everything
happens at a glacial pace anyway! i'm not sure how quickly things CAN
happen, never mind "should".

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts,

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then
at least someone in the Government.

but is there not a common sitting length over the year? & it's not 52 weeks,
we all know that!! they just don't sit that much - they're often just not
there, because (i assume) it's not practical to do so anyway. i don't know
the ins & outs of it, but i'd be frankly concerned if some new govt decided
to sit 40 weeks a year. while they're sitting, they're not thinking of what
they need to do & talking to people about it, they're debating (& whatnot)
stuff which has been decided while they _weren't_ sitting.

that's what i meant.

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

well she does, but she's not the prime minister so i'm not about to start
criticising her. :-)

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither
of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's the
truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER. however, since none of us can
do anything about it, it's a mystery to me that anyone need pay attention
until it happens. truly, they WILL let us know once there's been an
election, i'm sure :-) no amount of fussing about it now is going to change
anything, even though such a person will always do their overweening best to
make it the problem of the rest of the world, kwim? bush is a problem for
all 6 billion people on earth, & nobody wants that to happen again. but
since the next one will be another american, s/he is still going to be our
problem (just hopefully a much lesser problem). :-)

As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb
decisions are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond
their borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily
(choke) send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is that
although he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very careful
about his commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn numbers, not
that we could send too many anyway given our other international
commitments.

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how his
incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon
himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean,
tricky, and cunning. nobody ever said he was stupid - he's not. but that
doesn't mean he was not the sole instrument of his own downfall - he was.
the creepy little control freak. you get that when you're one-eyed.

charlie is noice. :-)

Shhhhh. Don't let him hear you say that or he'll get a swelled head!

he may not be able to fit his gardening hat on!!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many
ways.

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the line
about 'queue jumping'.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up. that doesn't make them unlikeable, unkind or
unworthy - it's just something you need to keep in mind. i don't know that
there's any place left for people who just aren't smart or who are
unprepared to think. they're being left behind. tbh i'm not sure what (if
anything) could or should be done about it.

in the olden days, most people were chattel, peasants or serfs. these days,
they have the same rights as the ruling class & expect that things are
equal, but things aren't equal & won't ever be, because people aren't equal.
an un-thought-out opinion is not equal to a well-thought-out opinion, is it?
but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect them.
thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-) it kind
of works, doesn't it?

that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling.

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves, &
stuff like that.
i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got my
Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()

ow!

but see, i'm a pretty smart person (mostly ;-) yet i find it inconceivable
that things like typhoid still exist!! it's hard for us to move outside our
own brain & own experience, isn't it?
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:25:19 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:


charlie is noice. :-)

Well now, that was a noice thing to say! ;-) Thank you......wait a
minute....unless this is some aussie slang thing that has a different
meaning than I took! ;-)

well, not really!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way)
individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many ways.
that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling. i think some
chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests
when
it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken personally.

Herd mentality is bad, bad I'm tellin' ya! It leads to stampede and
the *******s could sweep us all over the cliff, though this may not be
an entirely bad thing, given the condition of the planet and our
contribution to the.....situations. I am thinking that the herd is
starting to awake here...the "news" is reflecting this today, and the
bleating has started....."gov't must helppp, gov't must helpppp".

**** me, bush is again pushing to open the anwr to drilling. The only
solution to the oil situation is to retool our society and QUIT DRIVING
SO DAMN MUCH!

I fear it going to get ugly. It is for sure going to
become...different.

probably. but really, i think that's not a bad thing (overall!). the
disaster that forces one's hand to better things isn't really so bad. you
have to take the broad view. everyone has to suffer sometimes, it's
inevitable.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.
kylie


I think you have that right and should count your blessing....I've got
300 million members of the herd to worry about!

i'd be worried too if i were you g
kylie

Large scale permaculture
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts,

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then
at least someone in the Government.

but is there not a common sitting length over the year?

No. It used to be 21 or 22 weeks of the year (can't remember which) but
under Howard, they reduced it to 18 weeks because they could guillotine
discussion and ram legislation through. Large majorities make it easy for a
Government to get its own way.

& it's not 52 weeks,
we all know that!! they just don't sit that much - they're often just not
there, because (i assume) it's not practical to do so anyway. i don't know
the ins & outs of it, but i'd be frankly concerned if some new govt
decided to sit 40 weeks a year. while they're sitting, they're not
thinking of what they need to do & talking to people about it, they're
debating (& whatnot) stuff which has been decided while they _weren't_
sitting.

The trouble is that when the poor *******s aren't in the House, they're in
their electorates dealing with all sorts of drongos. Sure, they get the
genuine cases that need help, but they also seem to get an enormous amount
of the knuckle draggers just taking up time and resources because they
haven't a clue who to turn to for 'help' (or to whinge to). They spend
thier life being exhausted from what I've seen of them.

It's job that no-one should seek to do IMHO.

that's what i meant.

Fair nuff.

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

well she does, but she's not the prime minister so i'm not about to start
criticising her. :-)

And really, if he can do the job (still waiting to see) who cares what his
ties look like?

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither
of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure that he doesn't still have a lot of supporters. I'd
like to think not but.....

however, since none of us can
do anything about it, it's a mystery to me that anyone need pay attention
until it happens. truly, they WILL let us know once there's been an
election, i'm sure :-) no amount of fussing about it now is going to
change anything, even though such a person will always do their
overweening best to make it the problem of the rest of the world, kwim?
bush is a problem for all 6 billion people on earth, & nobody wants that
to happen again. but since the next one will be another american, s/he is
still going to be our problem (just hopefully a much lesser problem). :-)

Well hopefully whoever it is will have a better grasp on Foreign policy and
Trade than the current Administration appears to have.

As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb
decisions are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond
their borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily
(choke) send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is
that although he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very
careful about his commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn
numbers, not that we could send too many anyway given our other
international commitments.

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how
his incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon
himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean,
tricky, and cunning. nobody ever said he was stupid - he's not. but that
doesn't mean he was not the sole instrument of his own downfall - he was.
the creepy little control freak. you get that when you're one-eyed.

LOL. Gotta hand it to you Otter, you do have a way with words!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many
ways.

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the
line about 'queue jumping'.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Can't or don't want to. I can cope with those who can't, it's the one's who
don't want to who give me the irrits.

that doesn't make them unlikeable, unkind or
unworthy - it's just something you need to keep in mind. i don't know that
there's any place left for people who just aren't smart or who are
unprepared to think. they're being left behind. tbh i'm not sure what (if
anything) could or should be done about it.

in the olden days, most people were chattel, peasants or serfs. these
days, they have the same rights as the ruling class & expect that things
are equal, but things aren't equal & won't ever be, because people aren't
equal. an un-thought-out opinion is not equal to a well-thought-out
opinion, is it?

Sadly it is. The coverage of the un-thought-out idiocy opinions that aren't
really news, but noise, is all too frequent. These days, it's like the
Enlightenment never, ever happened.

but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect
them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-)
it kind of works, doesn't it?

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment it
into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it
up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about
illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people were
genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue
jumpers".

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.


that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling.

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves, &
stuff like that.

No, they didn't execute people, but I'm not convinced that they wouldn't
have tried it if they thought they could get away with it given the tricks
they used right across the board. I should lend you a book called
"Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the Public
Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I know
they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you
name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got
my Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()

ow!

but see, i'm a pretty smart person (mostly ;-) yet i find it inconceivable
that things like typhoid still exist!! it's hard for us to move outside
our own brain & own experience, isn't it?

:-)) Take up genealogy/family history and you start to read about illnesses
that are still out there in other parts of the world and in places we think
of as first world countries. TB being just one of those diseases. Just for
info, we chose not to be vaccinated for Japanese encephalitis and won't be
taking the malaria treatment. If I suddenly stop posting, some tropical
nasty got me (either that or my ISP is giving me probs as it has more than
once).

Large scale permaculture
 

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

To my mind, the entire electoral system there seems hell-bent on making sure
everyone is so sick to death of the whole thing that they don't vote.

Well hopefully whoever it is will have a better grasp on Foreign policy and
Trade than the current Administration appears to have.

Um, Hillary said that if Iran bombs the crap out of Israel, that the USA will
bomb the crap out of them. That's sophistication for you.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Large scale permaculture
 

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.
Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem. Bush is just the sock puppet
of the tidy rich in this country (World actually, what with
"globalization") who don't want to dirty their hands, so they buy
politicians (we call $$$ free speech) to pass their self serving laws
(bankruptcy laws were tightened 2 years ago, to make it harder to file,
coincidence?) and their press gives us infortainment which is short of
information but guaranteed to titillate (and act as if the past never
happened). And after irritating everyone (by sending jobs over seas,
diverting colossal amounts of money (which is sorely needed for social
programs: roads, schools, health care) to the military industrial
complex, sending pre-approved credit cards by mail to everyone,
exhorting us to buy houses, and diverting food crops into bio-fuels)
they point at the 12,000,000 illegal immigrants (who we can't do without
because they subsidize our dwindling life style) and say, "It's their
fault". No, Bush is just the hired help.
And now we get to choose from the lesser of three evils (eternal war, 5
more years of war with unwavering commitment to the ethnic cleansing of
Palestine, or health care that only an insurance agent could love (when
most doctors and citizens want single payer).
If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

(See first URL in signature to understand "Who Owns America". The second
URL is of our most supported ally and a template for America's futu-(


Hmmm. I'm not so sure that he doesn't still have a lot of supporters. I'd
like to think not but.....

(snip, chop, whack)

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how
his incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon
himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean,
tricky, and cunning.

(snippety, snippety, snip)


Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the
line about 'queue jumping'.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.
Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

(snip)

but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect
them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-)
it kind of works, doesn't it?

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment it
into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it
up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about
illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people were
genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue
jumpers".

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBB0s...eature=related

Large scale permaculture
 

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

a book called
"Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the Public
Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I know
they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you
name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

Editorial Reviews
Product Description
A frightening analysis of the tactics used by the Howard government to
silence independent experts and commentators as well as public servants
and organisations which criticise its policies.
http://www.amazon.com/Silencing-Diss...nt-controlling
/dp/1741751012/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209750564&sr=1-2
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBB0s...eature=related

Large scale permaculture
 

"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could
possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, &
that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so
i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the
Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world
wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem.

Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in
his position should be.

If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the
past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in
this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in
the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a
weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your chance
next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your choices.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch
of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try to
use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate those
within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of any
degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many times
does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the
current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the
patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts to
think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and
believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?

It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know that
he's being manipualted.

With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept
unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big
place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks
away (or should be).

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a few
times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is
impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly there
don't seem to be enough of such people around.

Large scale permaculture
 

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could
possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, &
that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so
i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the
Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world
wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem.

Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in
his position should be.
Is it just me? I'm feeling a whole lot of 'tude here. Are you reacting t
what I said or what you think I said? If this is to be a conversation,
then let's keep it in response to what is written.

Bush is guilty but he isn't the puppeteer who orchestrates the show. He
is a political hack representing his moneyed backers over the interests
of the electorate.

If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the
past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in
this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in
the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a
weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your chance
next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your choices.
You ain't the only one sister.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch
of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try to
use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate those
within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of any
degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many times
does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the
current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the
patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts to
think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and
believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?

It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know that
he's being manipualted.

With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept
unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big
place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks
away (or should be).
I don't know how Ruppert Murdock plays in Australia, but he is the most
egregious example of media incompetence in America, but still, only the
most egregious. Studies have shown that views of Fox News are worse
informed than people who don't watch anything. Viewers of Fox News are
still likely to think that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. The rest of the
media here is similar. The hysteria from the "corporate press" and the
"reputable" N.Y. Times, and Judith Miller, helped convince the country
that intervention was necessary. They were aided and abetted by
Gen.Colin Powell, who most of us thought was a good guy.

Nearly all of our the media depends on advertising (except for
free-speach radio like Pacifica and some college stations), advertising
that would disappear for an un-American media that didn't support the
government's declared intent of protecting the American people.

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.
I must have been asleep when this happened, thanks for bringing it to
our attention. We do the same thing to Haitians all the time:-(

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a few
times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is
impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly there
don't seem to be enough of such people around.

Loaf? Typo or Aussi argot?
She seems to tour a lot. My understanding was that she was live from
Australia and her guest David Lockebaum (sp?) could have been anywhere.
If You Love This Planet, hosted by Dr. Helen Caldicott
http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=26076
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBB0s...eature=related

Large scale permaculture
 

"Billy" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could
possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, &
that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it,
so
i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the
Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world
wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem.

Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in
his position should be.

Is it just me? I'm feeling a whole lot of 'tude here. Are you reacting t
what I said or what you think I said? If this is to be a conversation,
then let's keep it in response to what is written.

It's must be just you because I DID respond to what you wrote. You wrote
"Bush isn't the problem". There is absolutely no way to misinterprete that
sentence as he is either the problem or he's not the problem. I think he's
certainly a huge part of the problem as he's complicit and that is what I
wrote.

Bush is guilty but he isn't the puppeteer who orchestrates the show. He
is a political hack representing his moneyed backers over the interests
of the electorate.

And nothing I wrote in the sentence which you think has ""tude", disagrees
with what you've NOW written. You are now saying he's guilty, whereas
before you said he wasn't the problem. He is the problem just as there are
also many other problem individuals and corporations and vested interests
etc.

If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the
past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in
this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in
the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a
weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your
chance
next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your
choices.
You ain't the only one sister.

No. Despite all the hoopla, I've picked up from my reading that there are a
lot of people around who aren't convinced by any of the candidates.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a
bunch
of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots
of
people simply can't keep up.

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try
to
use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate
those
within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of
any
degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many
times
does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the
current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the
patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts
to
think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and
believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?

It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know
that
he's being manipualted.

With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept
unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big
place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks
away (or should be).
I don't know how Ruppert Murdock plays in Australia, but he is the most
egregious example of media incompetence in America, but still, only the
most egregious.

He pops over here now and again to see his mother and he owns a lot of media
here but there is still good competition for all of his media including good
free to air media, so he isn't seen as too much of a problem. We were all
delighted though when he took out American citerzenship as we could claim
that he no longer belonged to us.

Studies have shown that views of Fox News are worse
informed than people who don't watch anything. Viewers of Fox News are
still likely to think that Saddam Hussein had WMDs.

Yeah. Sad that.

The rest of the
media here is similar. The hysteria from the "corporate press" and the
"reputable" N.Y. Times, and Judith Miller, helped convince the country
that intervention was necessary. They were aided and abetted by
Gen.Colin Powell, who most of us thought was a good guy.

I've always wondered how much of an orchestrated campaign it was in the US
to whip up support for the invasion of Iraq whatever the cost. IIRC, the
statistics supporting the war were about two thirds against and one third
for in the rest of the world and the reverse in the US. I've always thought
it was a deliberate and well planned con job and I've also thought that
Colin Powell was conned too and that is why he slunk off into the night when
it al came unstuck. How embarrassing for him.

Nearly all of our the media depends on advertising (except for
free-speach radio like Pacifica and some college stations), advertising
that would disappear for an un-American media that didn't support the
government's declared intent of protecting the American people.

Indeed. And given that any one of us is far, far, far more likely to die as
a result of a car crash or even the flu, the hype over terrorism was rather
over the top given the circumstances as terrorism wasn't new and had been
building up since the Munich Olympics.

I've always thought that only 3,000 people dying in the WTC collapse was an
alsolute miracle. It's appalling for the families and it was a huge tragedy
but on the other hand, a quarter of a million people a day entered that
complex yet only 3,000 were lost. It could have been so much worse so the
survival of so many really is a triumph of American building skills,
emergency procedures, heroism etc.

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a
case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause
of
rational thinking or high human ideals.
I must have been asleep when this happened, thanks for bringing it to
our attention. We do the same thing to Haitians all the time:-(

It was a shameful incident and until that happened, I had never felt ashamed
to be an Australian.

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting
a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a
few
times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is
impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly
there
don't seem to be enough of such people around.

Loaf? Typo or Aussi argot?

Use her loaf = use her head.

She seems to tour a lot. My understanding was that she was live from
Australia and her guest David Lockebaum (sp?) could have been anywhere.
If You Love This Planet, hosted by Dr. Helen Caldicott
http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=26076

I think she lives here now and has a place in a forest somewhere in either
south eastern NSW of north eastern Victoria. I've seen her on a few panel
interviews etc and she is a very good analyst of the issues

I'll check out your cites, but can't do them from this ISP that I use to
read newsgroups.

Large scale permaculture
 

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

but is there not a common sitting length over the year?

No. It used to be 21 or 22 weeks of the year (can't remember which) but
under Howard, they reduced it to 18 weeks because they could guillotine
discussion and ram legislation through.

to me, the difference between 18 & 22 is not much :-)

The trouble is that when the poor *******s aren't in the House, they're in
their electorates dealing with all sorts of drongos. Sure, they get the
genuine cases that need help, but they also seem to get an enormous amount
of the knuckle draggers just taking up time and resources because they
haven't a clue who to turn to for 'help' (or to whinge to). They spend
thier life being exhausted from what I've seen of them.

yes, well. somebody has to do it :-)

i tend to feel sorry for them re workload, but then again, they get their
perks & that was their choice. ( & i'm glad SOMEBODY does it!)

And really, if he can do the job (still waiting to see) who cares what his
ties look like?

well, clearly, i do. g

but i knew about the tie problem before the election, so i can manage.

i loved paul keating (he's hilarious) and something else was that you always
knew that when he was on the news, he would NOT be wearing an aqua tie!!

truthfully though, i don't care as long as the right thing (or soemthing
similar) is done. i just HAD to have a whinge about that man's ties!!!!!!!!!
bomber beazley had a makeover in the 80s (ex- brown safari suits -
remember?) and look what it did for him! oh... hang on...

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

it is an unbelievable waste of resources & time that could be better spent
on something worthwhile. that in itself makes it immoral imo.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Can't or don't want to. I can cope with those who can't, it's the one's
who
don't want to who give me the irrits.

admittedly, i have more patience with those who simply can't - it's not
their fault.

but the thing is, if i get the shits with people who won't, then that just
doesn't help, it would only make me angry, it wouldn't achieve anything! you
get further working away gently on people (if it is something important - if
it's not, then just walking away unconcerned is also viable.) like i said,
it doesn't mean people don't have some value or things to contribute.

Sadly it is. The coverage of the un-thought-out idiocy opinions that
aren't
really news, but noise, is all too frequent. These days, it's like the
Enlightenment never, ever happened.

well, all forward steps involve some going backwards temporarily. you have
to take the longer view! and, as nomad said on "gladiators", the bridge to
enlightenment is full of obstacles. tee hee hee hahahaha. it's true, though.
(dh & i had a long conversation concerning whether it is right to touch
shallowly on philosophical or religious matters in a low-brain show like
"gladiators" & he thinks it is a good thing really. i disagreed. if you've
run out of things to discuss today, try that one!)

but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect
them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-)
it kind of works, doesn't it?

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment
it
into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it
up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about
illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people
were
genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue
jumpers".

firstly, some people don't want to be saved from themselves.
secondly, concerning that & iraq many people came to regret what they
thought at the time. everyone's learning curve is different. it's just the
way it is! if you don't make mistakes, you can't learn - that's just the
truth of things.

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.

that's true. i suppose i would say it was certainly a learning experience
for some!

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves,
&
stuff like that.

No, they didn't execute people, but I'm not convinced that they wouldn't
have tried it if they thought they could get away with it given the tricks
they used right across the board. I should lend you a book called
"Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the
Public
Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I
know
they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you
name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

i absolutely agree. i don't think most of us really took seriously just how
dreadful they had become (not to mention, anti-democratic) & now it's over
perhaps we have moved on too quickly.

however, at the end of the day, i don't & would never believe they compared
to china or places with similarly appalling human rights problems. the point
is mainly that we need to be better & be good role models (if we're so
thrilled by democracy, we need to live it daily, not just when it suits. in
the end they weren't doing that. in fact, i doubt they were in the
beginning, either ;-)

:-)) Take up genealogy/family history and you start to read about
illnesses
that are still out there in other parts of the world and in places we
think
of as first world countries. TB being just one of those diseases. Just
for
info, we chose not to be vaccinated for Japanese encephalitis and won't be
taking the malaria treatment. If I suddenly stop posting, some tropical
nasty got me (either that or my ISP is giving me probs as it has more than
once).

well, don't die horribly, then! :-)
kylie