Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old 06-05-2008, 01:26 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 713
Default rotation in the garden

have realised what my problem is re rotating the garden beds in an organised
manner:

1: lots of brassicas. i seem to grow half brassicas & half other stuff!!
(only slight exaggeration). this makes rotation difficult! in summer, lots
of solanacae (sp!) as well, of course, which have to be somewhere different
each season.

2: not everything comes out at the same time - the garden goes all year.
(how is one to rotate in this circumstance?!) i try to keep a record & then
consider what was in each section of each bed - the entire bed isn't taken
as a whole because they're quite long, with perhaps up to 10 different
things along the length - and only in the same family if it's worked out
that way. if it hasn't worked out that way, i can't do it.

in a nutshell, if i rotate as best i can but still grow lots of brassica, am
i setting myself up for a disease disaster? i simply cannot think how to
plan good rotations under this circumstance. with the brassica i take out
the entire roots, so each location gets a rest - is that enough?

the whole family is now in love with chinese cabbage & pak choy, so if i am
setting up a problem, it is only going to get worse.

thanks for any help or ideas!
kylie



  #2   Report Post  
Old 06-05-2008, 01:34 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 114
Default rotation in the garden

On Tue, 06 May 2008 00:26:00 +0000, 0tterbot wrote:

have realised what my problem is re rotating the garden beds in an organised
manner:


It is a worry here as well as we tend to grow mixed beds and sometimes
they evolve rather than follow the strict idea of wipe clean and replant.

The real problem is that multiple plantings of the same crop(famil) in
the same plot allows pests/dieseases to buld up in that spot. so
spelling the ground from that family lets them starve away.

all you can really do is rotate different plots in turn from that family
until the family fad fades {:-).



  #3   Report Post  
Old 06-05-2008, 12:15 PM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 805
Default rotation in the garden


"terryc" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 06 May 2008 00:26:00 +0000, 0tterbot wrote:

have realised what my problem is re rotating the garden beds in an
organised
manner:


It is a worry here as well as we tend to grow mixed beds and sometimes
they evolve rather than follow the strict idea of wipe clean and replant.

The real problem is that multiple plantings of the same crop(famil) in
the same plot allows pests/dieseases to buld up in that spot. so
spelling the ground from that family lets them starve away.

all you can really do is rotate different plots in turn from that family
until the family fad fades {:-).


I have pondered rotation myself. Having only been growing in this garden for
the last few seasons so I have only just started getting it straight mind.

I have 5 gardens, 3 long rectangular ones, a shorter squarish one and a
triangle shaped one. For my major crops I reckon I can do a 3 year rotation.

By major crops I mean tomatos, sweet corn and kumara over summer. In one
year I grew potatos but switched to kumara this year & reckon I may continue
with that. I plan to grow those 3 major summer crops again next summer.
Rotating will have tomatos back in the same bed on the fourth year of a
cycle.

year one tomatos
year two kumara
year 3 sweet corn
year 4 tomatos

lettuces, broccoli, beetroot, spring onions etc get grown in the 2 smaller
beds and at the end of rows of the big 3 crops as space allows.

This all changes over winter.
The triangle bed mostly gets rested over winter as it does not get winter
sun.
Of the 3 big crops, I have figured out that garlic is quite a good one to
follow tomatos. The tomato bed will be cropped heavily with garlic until
early summer. One winter I followed the tomatos with a mustard green manure.
I have undersowed a green manure of beans under the sweet corn. The kumara
bed has been stripped out and will have some broccoli, beetroot & lettuces.

I am happy with the big 3 crop rotation, though maybe sweet corn should
follow tomatos and then followed by kumara. Not sure yet of the nutrition
requirements. The text book rotation I came across recently is apparently a
nitrogen green manure (like beans), a leaf vegetable, a seed/fruit (like
tomatos or corn) crop and finally a tuber crop. I guess I would need 4 large
garden beds for that.

A mate who is an organic grower told me not to be anal about rotation, given
the size of my back yard vege garden. Mr Yates points out that in temperate
climates there is a natural rotation between hot season & cool season crops.
You can't follow egg plant with tomatos or follow tomatos with potatos. He
also suggests gardens packed with organic matter, humus, compost etc help
minimise build up of problems in garden beds (maybe the microbal activity in
the humus combats negative soil deseases etc). Feeding the garden with poop
or compost each year also minimises the need to sow nitrogen fixing or
nutrient scavaging green manures.

That said, I reckon green manures are quite an interesting topic & something
I am starting to get my head around. The beans are an experiment with
nitrogen fixers (I don't eat beans). The mustard was an experiment with keep
the bed covered over winter & stopping nutrients leaching. I guess if you
are going to fallow a garden for a season or 2 a green manure makes sense
for a number of reasons. The organic grower mates suggested with nitrogen
fixers also putting in something that will use the nitrogen, maybe a grass.
A 1/2 clover & grass mix on a garden bed will get the clover producing
nitrogen and also have a crop that utilises the nitrogen, thereby
encouraging the clover to produce more nitrogen. When the crop is killed and
mulched you get double the amount of nitrogen being returned to the soil
(what the clover produced & what the grass took up).

rob

  #4   Report Post  
Old 06-05-2008, 01:51 PM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 438
Default rotation in the garden


"0tterbot" wrote in message
...

I was at a lecture on this topic and the bloke described his 4 bed rotation
system. Somebody asked did he rotate the sequence clockwise or anticlockwise.
He replied seriously that he went clockwise but he had heard that others went
the reverse.

Organic enthusiasts can be soooo serious sometimes.

David


  #5   Report Post  
Old 06-05-2008, 08:31 PM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2008
Posts: 177
Default rotation in the garden

g'dau otterbot,

rotation isn't a part of our gardening to do it would almost mean
having twice as many gardens as space would permit. as much as we can
our agrdens get a month or 2 of fallowing between seasonal crops.

as we feed and top the medium continually and we try not to plant
exactly in the same spot as the last season but the next side postion
we have never had any unbdesirable effects ie.,. nematodes etc.,.

we've gardened this way for a decade now and we grow healthy plants
which give us healthy food all without any man made chemical or
fertiliser intervention.

On Tue, 06 May 2008 00:26:00 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/


  #6   Report Post  
Old 06-05-2008, 11:07 PM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,096
Default rotation in the garden

In article ,
len gardener wrote:

g'dau otterbot,

rotation isn't a part of our gardening to do it would almost mean
having twice as many gardens as space would permit. as much as we can
our agrdens get a month or 2 of fallowing between seasonal crops.

as we feed and top the medium continually and we try not to plant
exactly in the same spot as the last season but the next side postion
we have never had any unbdesirable effects ie.,. nematodes etc.,.

we've gardened this way for a decade now and we grow healthy plants
which give us healthy food all without any man made chemical or
fertiliser intervention.

On Tue, 06 May 2008 00:26:00 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/


Rotation does not have to be circular though the word suggest it.
Back and forth may give similar desired effects. In some ways I'd
suggest the word rest or Fallow may be useful. I'd recommend green
manure if you can add to your tilth.

Bill new to aus.gardens and ignorant. For instance can you grow food
stuff year round ? We can minimally as some hardy greens can over winter.

Someone crossed posted from wrecked gardens and I sort of resonated.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
  #7   Report Post  
Old 07-05-2008, 12:35 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 114
Default rotation in the garden

On Tue, 06 May 2008 18:07:00 -0400, Bill wrote:

Bill new to aus.gardens and ignorant. For instance can you grow food
stuff year round ? We can minimally as some hardy greens can over winter.


Well, in Sydney we can. Just choose appropriately. would also depend on
individual gardens. Some years we have had bad frost effects, but not
so far this year, despitethe bitterly cold weather.

  #8   Report Post  
Old 07-05-2008, 08:10 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,358
Default rotation in the garden

"Bill" wrote in message

Bill new to aus.gardens and ignorant. For instance can you grow food
stuff year round ? We can minimally as some hardy greens can over winter.


It depends on the poster Bill. Len lives in the subtropics but I live in a
cold climate. I can grow things like Silver Beet (chard) all year round but
I get frosts so that makes potatoes, tomatoes etc a summer only thing

Someone crossed posted from wrecked gardens and I sort of resonated.


Welcome!


  #9   Report Post  
Old 07-05-2008, 08:17 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,358
Default rotation in the garden

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
have realised what my problem is re rotating the garden beds in an
organised manner:


I try to do at least a two year rotation, but in my garden, my sloppiness
doesn't seem to have had any ill effects. I have read somewhere that if you
garden organically, it isn't vital to rotate, but who the hell knows if that
is true.

In our case we only have 3 areas whihc I would call 'beds' and then there is
all the side stuff and permanent beds and areas still being brought into
good heart before they become beds. The tomatoes start in the bed at the
bottom of the hill and then over subsequent years move to the next bed up
the hill and then start at the bottom of the hill in the lowest bed again.
Same with corn. The poor old spuds have got a permanent bed and so far no
problems. The reason why it's permanent is that we can never harvest them
all and then when they come up, it tends to be a busy time, we don't get tot
hem and by the time we do get to them to actually do soemthing with their
area, we don't have the heart to dig them up. Will have to do something
there soon though.


  #10   Report Post  
Old 07-05-2008, 11:21 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 301
Default rotation in the garden

In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

have realised what my problem is re rotating the garden beds in an organised
manner:

1: lots of brassicas. i seem to grow half brassicas & half other stuff!!
(only slight exaggeration). this makes rotation difficult! in summer, lots
of solanacae (sp!) as well, of course, which have to be somewhere different
each season.


You've omitted the legumes, the other big vegie garden family. If you follow
your brassicas with solanaceae and then with legumes, you have a rotation.

2: not everything comes out at the same time - the garden goes all year.
(how is one to rotate in this circumstance?!) i try to keep a record & then
consider what was in each section of each bed - the entire bed isn't taken
as a whole because they're quite long, with perhaps up to 10 different
things along the length - and only in the same family if it's worked out
that way. if it hasn't worked out that way, i can't do it.

in a nutshell, if i rotate as best i can but still grow lots of brassica, am
i setting myself up for a disease disaster? i simply cannot think how to
plan good rotations under this circumstance. with the brassica i take out
the entire roots, so each location gets a rest - is that enough?


I have a similar problem in that I'm not organised enough to do proper
rotations. OTOH I plant mixtures of crops, which tend to minimise pest
problems.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/


  #11   Report Post  
Old 07-05-2008, 07:05 PM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2008
Posts: 177
Default rotation in the garden

g'day bill,

copy book rotation is something that occurs over 4 to 6 growing
seasons and it requires the growing of crops in certain sequences
ie.,. heavy feeders, light feeders etc.,. all follow each other in
sequence, it is quiet involved, but for most of us we don't have space
for that many gardens and we need as much stuff as we can grow.

my fallows may only be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks odd occassions longer and
it will only be for sections of a garden bed. no time or space for
growing green mulches either.

On Tue, 06 May 2008 18:07:00 -0400, Bill
wrote:

In article ,
len gardener wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
  #12   Report Post  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:29 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 713
Default rotation in the garden

"George.com" wrote in message
...

"terryc" wrote in message
news


terry
The real problem is that multiple plantings of the same crop(famil) in
the same plot allows pests/dieseases to buld up in that spot. so
spelling the ground from that family lets them starve away.

all you can really do is rotate different plots in turn from that family
until the family fad fades {:-).


this is the problem - trying to do that!! i'm a bit disorganised & have
trouble planning in advance (i can plan at the time though... um...). hence
my question! i keep reading a 3 or preferably 4 year rotation is best - i
suppose i am wondering if i can get away with 2 in some patches.. or perhaps
only a short break for some of the brassica. it might just be my perpetual
reading of english gardening books - maybe they overstate the probability of
club root.(?).

george
I guess I would need 4 large
garden beds for that.


i have 6 & it's not working out in an organised manner ;-)


A mate who is an organic grower told me not to be anal about rotation,
given the size of my back yard vege garden. Mr Yates points out that in
temperate climates there is a natural rotation between hot season & cool
season crops.


well, this is good news on both counts. that applies with my potato/tomato
problem - there's always going to be breaks over winter & so far i can keep
them moving around. more concerned about the brassica, where i'm growing
many kinds & hence, there is always brassica in the beds, & not enough room
to limit them to specific beds.

You can't follow egg plant with tomatos or follow tomatos with potatos. He
also suggests gardens packed with organic matter, humus, compost etc help
minimise build up of problems in garden beds (maybe the microbal activity
in the humus combats negative soil deseases etc). Feeding the garden with
poop or compost each year also minimises the need to sow nitrogen fixing
or nutrient scavaging green manures.

That said, I reckon green manures are quite an interesting topic &
something I am starting to get my head around. The beans are an experiment
with nitrogen fixers (I don't eat beans). The mustard was an experiment
with keep the bed covered over winter & stopping nutrients leaching. I
guess if you are going to fallow a garden for a season or 2 a green manure
makes sense for a number of reasons. The organic grower mates suggested
with nitrogen fixers also putting in something that will use the nitrogen,
maybe a grass. A 1/2 clover & grass mix on a garden bed will get the
clover producing nitrogen and also have a crop that utilises the nitrogen,
thereby encouraging the clover to produce more nitrogen. When the crop is
killed and mulched you get double the amount of nitrogen being returned to
the soil (what the clover produced & what the grass took up).


love the idea of green manures. it's not happening in my existing garden as
the garden is always full! (although i put the pea & bean plants back on
when they're pulled out...)

i've sown field peas in some new beds, which WOULD be going well, but that
the *$^#$!!!! wallaby eats it. (as well as everything else - what's going to
be left to rotate? ;-) trying to add bulk & nitrogen. have put net & mesh
all about - undoubtedly i'll end up catching the wallaby by accident as he
continues to eat the pea plants g

i understand the mustard family are excellent because they grow very well,
are very bulky & have a reputation as a fumigant as well (?). also wallabies
don't seem to like mustard so much g (he never eats the mizuna).
ta!
kylie


  #13   Report Post  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:30 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 713
Default rotation in the garden

"len gardener" wrote in message
...
g'dau otterbot,

rotation isn't a part of our gardening to do it would almost mean
having twice as many gardens as space would permit. as much as we can
our agrdens get a month or 2 of fallowing between seasonal crops.

as we feed and top the medium continually and we try not to plant
exactly in the same spot as the last season but the next side postion
we have never had any unbdesirable effects ie.,. nematodes etc.,.

we've gardened this way for a decade now and we grow healthy plants
which give us healthy food all without any man made chemical or
fertiliser intervention.


this is encouraging :-)

that's pretty much what's happening, i'm just not experienced enough to
decide if i'm setting up a disaster, or if it's moving around enough as is.
ta!
kylie


  #14   Report Post  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:39 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 713
Default rotation in the garden

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Rotation does not have to be circular though the word suggest it.
Back and forth may give similar desired effects. In some ways I'd
suggest the word rest or Fallow may be useful. I'd recommend green
manure if you can add to your tilth.


back & forth is fine by me! it's what i've been trying to do.

genuine rotation with x always following y following z is good for plant
nutrition preferences, as i understand it. however, i'm really not trying to
do that (yet?); just not organised enough, & it hasn't started out that way
therefore harder to introduce now. maybe one day :-) just worrying that i'm
not giving enough time between brassicas, mainly.

Bill new to aus.gardens and ignorant. For instance can you grow food
stuff year round ? We can minimally as some hardy greens can over winter.


do you mean in australia? (if so...) depends on your climate. in the
tropical north, they grow "summer" veg in winter, when it's not too hot or
wet, & can't grow "winter" veg at all as a rule, but they have tropical
fruits & veg in summer, yum! the rest of us in more temperate climes tend to
follow the standard european seasonal crops, summer veg in summer, & winter
veg in winter.

it gets quite cold where i am, with frosts, but snow is exceedingly rare &
the ground doesn't freeze or anything like that, so i've got all the usual
winter things in (onions, broad beans, cabbage, broccoli, rocket, lettuce,
some carrots which i'm sure are failing, parsnip, leeks, etc etc - anything
which is frost-hardy is fine for winter & i'll give it a go!)

Someone crossed posted from wrecked gardens and I sort of resonated.


i was wondering what that humming noise is ;-)
kylie


  #15   Report Post  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:44 AM posted to aus.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 713
Default rotation in the garden

"FarmI" [email protected] be given wrote in message
...
"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
have realised what my problem is re rotating the garden beds in an
organised manner:


I try to do at least a two year rotation, but in my garden, my sloppiness
doesn't seem to have had any ill effects. I have read somewhere that if
you garden organically, it isn't vital to rotate, but who the hell knows
if that is true.


maybe not AS vital? i'm sure a good rotation would be better, but unsure how
to introduce it now (especially with the brassica preponderance).

it does sound logical that if i keep adding as much poo & mulch (& now
compost as it is really getting going in bulk now!!) that the effects of
being a bit slack & disorganised will be somewhat ameliorated :-)

In our case we only have 3 areas whihc I would call 'beds' and then there
is all the side stuff and permanent beds and areas still being brought
into good heart before they become beds. The tomatoes start in the bed at
the bottom of the hill and then over subsequent years move to the next bed
up the hill and then start at the bottom of the hill in the lowest bed
again. Same with corn. The poor old spuds have got a permanent bed and so
far no problems. The reason why it's permanent is that we can never
harvest them all and then when they come up, it tends to be a busy time,
we don't get tot hem and by the time we do get to them to actually do
soemthing with their area, we don't have the heart to dig them up. Will
have to do something there soon though.


i have that live-&-let-live attitude to the potatoes as well. which, because
i'm _trying_ to rotate them, seems to mean random potato plants everywhere.
errr!!!!
thanks for the encouragement.
kylie




Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is there a way to avoid rotation in a vegetable garden? [email protected] Lawns 2 29-05-2003 05:23 AM
crop rotation Jane VR Permaculture 2 05-05-2003 01:08 PM
Crop Rotation McGrew Brothers Farm sci.agriculture 3 26-04-2003 12:20 PM
crop rotation Jane VR Permaculture 2 03-04-2003 12:56 AM
Veg rotation Martin Sykes United Kingdom 8 26-03-2003 02:20 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2021 GardenBanter.co.uk.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Gardening"

 

Copyright © 2017