"John Savage" wrote in message
...
"0tterbot" writes:
"John Savage" wrote in message
om...
The Yanks often talk of "tanglefoot" traps for rats. Is that stuff
available here? It's a sticky pad critters get their feet stuck to,
something like industrial-strength fly-paper. (Stepping on it would
probably give the neighbour's cat a few anxious moments, too.)

finding a bunch of live rats stuck onto paper would also give any decent
human a few anxious moments as well. the yanks don't exactly have a
reputation for civilised behaviour toward living creatures and this would
be
one example.

if you want to kill vermin, i'd suggest just killing them, rather than
leaving them to die of thirst stuck onto sticky paper.

Your strawman has not a leg to stand on, but nice try.

it wasn't a strawman, it was just a statement.

I don't believe instructions accompanying the use of tanglefoot would
say to leave any trapped animal to die of thirst; and I don't believe
any user would -- no more than they would with other live-capture traps.
I'd expect users would check the trap daily and dispatch any captured
pests quickly and humanely.

Draw a comparison of this with a death drawn out over 2 to 4 days by
internal bleeding that the anti-coagulant type bait brings on if you
wish to balance your view.

but i don't have an unbalanced view - i just think snap traps are the best
way to go with rodents, in the absence of predators. and just lately my dog
has been stepping up to the plate re our mice (which makes a nice change :-)

how would one kill the rodents on a sticky trap? drowning? if there's only
one stuck onto the trap & you drowned it, wouldn't that just be a waste of
the trap? or does the stickiness remain, so after you unstick the dead rat &
dry off the trap, you can use it again?


There is nothing to be boastful of in the baiting methods used for
controlling rats, rabbits, foxes, pigs or dingoes, other then their
demonstrated effectiveness.

Do people who set live-capture cage traps really leave the rats in
the cage until they die of thirst?

those traps are designed for the user to release the rodents, er, elsewhere
(thus making it someone else's problem). at any rate that's what they say.

I can't imagine it.

can't you? why do you think rabbit & dingo traps were banned? it's not
because the setters of the traps would thoughtfully do the rounds twice a
day checking if they caught anything.
kylie

"0tterbot" writes:
I just think snap traps are the best
way to go with rodents, in the absence of predators. and just lately my dog
has been stepping up to the plate re our mice (which makes a nice change :-)

I find rat traps to be too impractical. They are difficult to place in
position when set to a hair trigger.

how would one kill the rodents on a sticky trap? drowning? if there's only
one stuck onto the trap & you drowned it, wouldn't that just be a waste of
the trap? or does the stickiness remain, so after you unstick the dead rat &
dry off the trap, you can use it again?

Tanglefoot is a sticky resin that you apply using a caulking gun to bits
of scrap timber, old paint-tin lids, tree trunks, or whatever. Apparently
it is not water-soluble.

can't you? why do you think rabbit & dingo traps were banned? it's not
because the setters of the traps would thoughtfully do the rounds twice a
day checking if they caught anything.

We were talking about rat traps set around the house. Now you are talking
about animal traps set kilometres or tens of km from the house. Big
difference.

The old rabbit trap was banned because the trap is cruel, not the trapper.
Its steel jaws crush the leg, causing the animal to needlessly suffer. My
understanding is that rubber-jawed traps are still allowed; maybe I'm
wrong. As for trapping wild dogs by the leg, some dogs will gnaw the leg
off to effect an escape, so leg trapping of dogs is not only cruel but can
be self-defeating if it leaves a maimed dog to survive on the only food it
can now catch -- slower-moving sheep or calves instead of roos or rabbits.

Besides, foot traps are so indiscriminant that they can catch and maim
untargetted animals, including the grazier's own dog. It was not uncommon
for pastoralists to set rabbit traps around lamb carcasses to catch eagles,
too, before the eagles' real worth was appreciated.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

"John Savage" wrote in message
...
"0tterbot" writes:
I just think snap traps are the best
way to go with rodents, in the absence of predators. and just lately my
dog
has been stepping up to the plate re our mice (which makes a nice change
:-)

I find rat traps to be too impractical. They are difficult to place in
position when set to a hair trigger.

true, and also rats are very smart. you may not be able to catch them all
before they've observed good reasons to stay away from traps.

Tanglefoot is a sticky resin that you apply using a caulking gun to bits
of scrap timber, old paint-tin lids, tree trunks, or whatever. Apparently
it is not water-soluble.

erg. right. interestingly, we all perhaps have a tendency to get a bit
either emotive or ruthless here. i find the idea of drowning them once
trapped on sticky stuff a little distressing, whereas i don't find my method
(outlined below in response to ymc's new mouse problem) at all problematic.
i also find the idea of forgetfulness about the trap a little bothersome.
then again "humane" traps are likely to create the same problem.

We were talking about rat traps set around the house. Now you are talking
about animal traps set kilometres or tens of km from the house. Big
difference.

true, but there IS that tendency in humans to be neglectful about following
through, in either case. we DO know this is a strong tendency in many
people.

The old rabbit trap was banned because the trap is cruel, not the trapper.
Its steel jaws crush the leg, causing the animal to needlessly suffer. My
understanding is that rubber-jawed traps are still allowed; maybe I'm
wrong. As for trapping wild dogs by the leg, some dogs will gnaw the leg
off to effect an escape, so leg trapping of dogs is not only cruel but can
be self-defeating if it leaves a maimed dog to survive on the only food it
can now catch -- slower-moving sheep or calves instead of roos or rabbits.

Besides, foot traps are so indiscriminant that they can catch and maim
untargetted animals, including the grazier's own dog. It was not uncommon
for pastoralists to set rabbit traps around lamb carcasses to catch
eagles,
too, before the eagles' real worth was appreciated.

i just think it's fair to say that leg-traps are just unacceptable all
around. the idea of catching mice/rats by the feet is probably just too
similar for my taste.. and i don't like the idea of not following through.

having said all that, we HAVE in the past resorted to poison for smart rats
that refused to be caught any other way. as well as the fact that it is most
unkind as you pointed out previously, it creates problems of it's own (bad
smells & maggots from dead rats in walls, etc.) ime, there's a variety of
instant karma that results from poisoning things.
kylie

Try this :
Shallow pans or bowls baited with corn meal, brown sugar, and plaster of
Paris. The mixture is most effective when it consists of 2/3 of corn
meal and a sixth each of brown sugar and plaster of Paris. First, mix
the corn meal and plaster of Paris to ensure that plaster of Paris is
spread evenly throughout the mixture. Soft brown sugar makes mixing easier.

Instant Karma will get you, but you will most likely get the rats.
As well you can sell these furry little blokes at the local market

PS leave plenty of water.

0tterbot wrote:
"John Savage" wrote in message
...
"0tterbot" writes:
I just think snap traps are the best
way to go with rodents, in the absence of predators. and just lately my
dog
has been stepping up to the plate re our mice (which makes a nice change
:-)
I find rat traps to be too impractical. They are difficult to place in
position when set to a hair trigger.

true, and also rats are very smart. you may not be able to catch them all
before they've observed good reasons to stay away from traps.

Tanglefoot is a sticky resin that you apply using a caulking gun to bits
of scrap timber, old paint-tin lids, tree trunks, or whatever. Apparently
it is not water-soluble.

erg. right. interestingly, we all perhaps have a tendency to get a bit
either emotive or ruthless here. i find the idea of drowning them once
trapped on sticky stuff a little distressing, whereas i don't find my method
(outlined below in response to ymc's new mouse problem) at all problematic.
i also find the idea of forgetfulness about the trap a little bothersome.
then again "humane" traps are likely to create the same problem.

We were talking about rat traps set around the house. Now you are talking
about animal traps set kilometres or tens of km from the house. Big
difference.

true, but there IS that tendency in humans to be neglectful about following
through, in either case. we DO know this is a strong tendency in many
people.

The old rabbit trap was banned because the trap is cruel, not the trapper.
Its steel jaws crush the leg, causing the animal to needlessly suffer. My
understanding is that rubber-jawed traps are still allowed; maybe I'm
wrong. As for trapping wild dogs by the leg, some dogs will gnaw the leg
off to effect an escape, so leg trapping of dogs is not only cruel but can
be self-defeating if it leaves a maimed dog to survive on the only food it
can now catch -- slower-moving sheep or calves instead of roos or rabbits.

Besides, foot traps are so indiscriminant that they can catch and maim
untargetted animals, including the grazier's own dog. It was not uncommon
for pastoralists to set rabbit traps around lamb carcasses to catch
eagles,
too, before the eagles' real worth was appreciated.

i just think it's fair to say that leg-traps are just unacceptable all
around. the idea of catching mice/rats by the feet is probably just too
similar for my taste.. and i don't like the idea of not following through.

having said all that, we HAVE in the past resorted to poison for smart rats
that refused to be caught any other way. as well as the fact that it is most
unkind as you pointed out previously, it creates problems of it's own (bad
smells & maggots from dead rats in walls, etc.) ime, there's a variety of
instant karma that results from poisoning things.
kylie

"0tterbot" writes:
having said all that, we HAVE in the past resorted to poison for smart rats
that refused to be caught any other way. as well as the fact that it is most
unkind as you pointed out previously, it creates problems of it's own (bad
smells & maggots from dead rats in walls, etc.) ime, there's a variety of
instant karma that results from poisoning things.

Blood thinner poisons seem to make the dying rodent cold; how else to
explain that it is not uncommon, after setting out poison, to find a
dead or dying mouse or rat lying on the lawn or a garden path in the
sunshine, in turn posing a danger to a kookaburra or cat. Probably
more do so than I realise, with most already having been snapped up
by a higher order predator.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

A glue trap isn't intended to be a catch and release trap. They are designed to hold the animal in place so it dies of thirst/starvation because it has no access to food or water. Pest control operators will routinely set them up, and come back within a week to dispose of the carcasses. There is nothing humane about them at all - what do you think happens when the animal gets caught on these things? It doesn't just lie there and wait to be killed, it tries to get off, often with horrific results. I am talking ripped off skin and broken limbs here since they struggle so hard but the adhesive is just too strong. So they will gnaw themselves out of it (eg. their legs) or even pull so hard as to leave patches of skin and perhaps a limb or two. The cruelty of these traps are well documented, if you would like me to provide you some links then I'd be more than happy to.

Interesting point about the instructions there, because for the most part they tell people to simply "discard trap with animal", presuming that one just throws a live animal stuck on the trap into the bin. You point out how other traps are banned for being incredibly cruel, when the glue trap works on exactly the same principle. The glue meshes to their skin, causing self mutilation due to the struggle of self-preservation, something that would not happen with a cage trap. They are like your other snare trap that captures the animal, holds it in place but doesn't kill it - though the means of the capture forces injury. That includes gnawing their own legs off to escape, and this is something that animals regularly do on glue traps.

Glue traps, in the end, cause as much needless suffering as a steel-jawed leghold trap for rabbits would due to the design of the trap alone. These traps should not be condoned in any way, in fact, they should be banned. The level of suffering these animals go through on these things when more humane alternatives could be used is simply unacceptable.

John Savage wrote:

Tom N writes:
We did have a rat or two in the garage at one point and it ate a whole
packet of snail bait (the one with the bitter additive to deter children
and pets). The rat ate half one the packet one night and I saw the half
empty packet and thought the culprit would be dead and wouldn't come
back, and the next night it came back and ate the rest!

I found it very frustrating to spread snail bait and next day find
not a single pellet anywhere, and no dying snails either. Finally
I sighted a rat, around midday, skipping around the garden bold as
brass collecting each pellet of snail bait. I replenished the bait
each day, hoping it would spell the end of the rat, but no such luck
and I had to resort to rat bait before I could lay out snail bait.

You could try coffee as it deters and kills slugs and snails apparently
(not tried it myself).
http://www.lensgarden.com.au/hintsNtips.htm

I reckon a lot of wild animals like foxes and rats and probably feral
cats live on pet food and scraps given to pets outside. I occasionally
see foxes around here and I am sure they patrol back yards for food
scraps.

You forgot Indian mynahs!

And those imported doves we get in Melbourne. They both tend not to be a
problem for fruit though (in my experience).

The garage rat used to bring in lamb chop bones and nectarines and I was
cleaning out secluded parts of the garage and the carport behind some
boxes and other stuff, and I found dozens and dozens of nectarine stones
and chop bones. The nectarines were from our tree but the chop bones
must have come from someone else's yard.

You ruled out the possibility that the rats had progressed to
slaughtering sheep?

Yes, until I see one with a saw to cut through the bones neatly.

Ed wrote:


"Tom N" wrote


The $^#% rat still made it inside last night. Nibbled or chomped on
3 apples. Since this is the first year for this tree, the rat has
nibbled on
most of the crop so far.

Yes, same here, is it the year of the rat or what? I've had fruit
trees for years and Never had rats going near them except for this
season.

Rats have been a steadily worsening problem for us over the last few years.

They are the only critter that has defeated the nets! They
got just about all the apples, because unlike the birds, possums &
bats, they have figured out that it's no problem to chew holes in the
net. Think I'll have to get a puddytat.

I've been thinking about an electric fence. It would be relatively easy to
set up the fence to keep rats from climbing the trunk, though they'd likely
search for other ways.

So perhaps a chook wire fence around the circumference of the tree (not
electrified, since it is in contact with the ground), then an insulated and
electrified section, with a net above that.

John Savage wrote:

"0tterbot" writes:
having said all that, we HAVE in the past resorted to poison for smart
rats that refused to be caught any other way. as well as the fact that
it is most unkind as you pointed out previously, it creates problems
of it's own (bad smells & maggots from dead rats in walls, etc.) ime,
there's a variety of instant karma that results from poisoning things.

Blood thinner poisons seem to make the dying rodent cold; how else to
explain that it is not uncommon, after setting out poison, to find a
dead or dying mouse or rat lying on the lawn or a garden path in the
sunshine, in turn posing a danger to a kookaburra or cat. Probably
more do so than I realise, with most already having been snapped up
by a higher order predator.

Not specifically about dead rats but apparently insecticides are a problem
for birds:
http://www.ozarkwild.org/pp.php

Some very fine nets that used to be sold for fruit trees are a problem for
wildfile of many kinds. Wildlife gets entangled in the net and then
struggles so much to escape that they either get strangled or entangle
themselves even more, doing a lot of damage to themselves.
http://www.wildlifefriendlyfencing.c..._solutions.htm
http://www.sydneybats.org.au/cms/ind...=17,22,0,0,1,0

The good news is that the knitted white nets you now buy are ok provided
they are stretched tight. In fact, the possums at our place climb over
them and sit on them like a hammock.

Barbed wire can be a problem for wildlife too.
http://www.wildlifefriendlyfencing.com/index.htm

I've only ever had one animal trapped and injured in our fruit tree nets.
It was a bird I believe a young wattlebird which strangled itself trying to
escape. Curiously the older wattlebirds never seem to go near the fruit
trees - it has always been the young ones (but they are a minor bother
compared to the introduced animals and birds).

We've had a few other animals that have got inside the net (not tangled in
the net) and couldn't get out without assistance - birds (mostly
introduced) and once a brush tail possum.

We have some of the grey plastic mouse traps, which are supposedly more
humane than the old-fashioned wire spring traps. A couple of times we've
caught mice in these traps, and the mouse has only be caught by the foot,
and has then struggled so much it's leg is twisted and broken in multiple
places.

"GavinB" wrote in message
...

John Savage;837279 Wrote:

I don't believe instructions accompanying the use of tanglefoot would
say to leave any trapped animal to die of thirst; and I don't believe
any user would -- no more than they would with other live-capture
traps.
I'd expect users would check the trap daily and dispatch any captured
pests quickly and humanely.


A glue trap isn't intended to be a catch and release trap. They are
designed to hold the animal in place so it dies of thirst/starvation
because it has no access to food or water. (snip)

john is a nice guy so he wouldn't - but yes, my point in the remarks i made
was that, well, it's just "easy" for people to leave them there & tidy up
weeks or months later.. and that is what some of them would do. ugh.

i even went off the sticky yellow glue traps (for white fly, that one uses
in the greenhouse or veggie patch) because i was catching little skinks. the
little skinks wanted to eat the trapped bugs but got caught themselves.
after our second afternoon of spending several hours unsticking all the
lizard's little tiny feet & whatnot with a blunt pin, & trying to wash off
all the sticky, i just decided i'd rather have white fly than stuck lizards.

i think i agree with you - that perhaps such things are best off banned
entirely. anything that is marketed to lazy people is probably a problem.
:-) i mean, i am very lazy myself, but i try not to indulge it overly.
kylie