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Old 24-01-2010, 04:31 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

Some good links in this page
Growing lettuces http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/horticulture/5248.html

Epsom Salts
http://gardening.about.com/od/organi...psom_Salts.htm
There are various opinions on this.

This climate guide may also explain the best things to grow and when.
http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s2781004.htm

On 24/01/2010 5:20 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Jonno wrote:


Most plant do terrible in very hot weather. (Unless youre cactus.)

Dunno, my tomatoes and potatos and strawberrys are doing fine.


Those plants like hot weather and have small leaves.
All large leaved varieties seem to go limp when the wind hits them EG
Rhubarb, Silverbeet Lettuce Pumpkins.
Wind screws them up badly. The wind and heat evaporates moisture and the
roots cant keep up...
My patch is muddy at the moment (Luck so far no water restrictions) Must
put the timer on for shorter periods...
All you in water restricted areas, due to government mismanagement (No
Dams Etc) suffer! (grin!)
Most lettuce plants like Mignonette are spring type plants.

You wanna try hot windy days when the temp is 45C. (grin that exactly what were getting)





I found it difficult to get lettuce plants in December January, until accountants started asking why they weren't
selling any at that time of year.
Why arent they eating salads ? I certainly do, more than in winter etc.

Yep but theyre hard to grow, so they shouldnt sell the plants then.
growing them at that time can mean failure.
S o youre finding outThe reason was most gardeners had problems growing them is stressfull heat.. (Melbourne)


If you plant them amongst other plants,

I am doing that.

They must get some direct light, as otherwise they grow a bit funny.
(though comic vegetables would be a change from the usual.)
you can do like me, have success if you water them twice a day,

I've just started doing that now, be interesting to see what difference it makes.


and keep checking them fro heat stress..

Nothing visible with the previous ones, they just dont do anything, dont grow.


No problems in NE Victoria.

Thats a similar climate to mine.


if you are aware that Aquasol is helpful,

The growing instructions say grow them fast. Magnesium Suphate or Epson
salts appear to help greatly in the plants, depending on your soil, but
I've found it beneficial in most cases.
Link
http://gardening.about.com/od/organi...psom_Salts.htm
There are various opinions on this.

This climate guide may also explain the best things to grow and when.

http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s2781004.htm

Havent been fertilizing them, mainly because the first two
batches of mignonettes and cos in spring did fine without any.
This is on fresh ground that has just had weeds growing on it.
I did apply the Brunnings vegitable starter fertilizer before
transplanting the seedlings with the mignonettes and cos
but not with the later 4 batches of mignonettes and cos, salad mix
and icebergs. I've just applied some now to see if thats the
problem. The strawberrys in that patch are doing fine tho.


but if they get limp, like most they cannot reproduce or even grow.

Yeah, thats why I transplanted another punnet of the Lettuce Combo,
tho the green flat leaved seedlings have produced new leaves. I didnt
ask the woman at the nursury which particular ones she was getting
the new leaves off, she wasnt there yesterday when I got the
second punnet of Lettuce Combo, I'll show up on Thursday and
see if she's in there again.


A bit like humans really. When your hot , youre not...

Most of the tomatoes are doing fine, particularly the
Cherry Sweet Bites, Father Toms and Mama's Delight.


These liek hot weather. The trick is to find heat resistant types,
allthough I like the Great Lakes lettuces, (not happy but still growing
OK) and let my wife grow the mignonette variety.
Theyre more of a soft leaf type, and I like the crisp types. The
mignonettes seem to like spring time best.
The problem appears to be that lettuce doesnt like stinking hot weather much.



This seems to answer most questions well!
http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/horticulture/5248.html
Rod Speed wrote

I dont know that much about growing veg, first time this
spring/summer. The first couple of batches of lettuce did fine, First batch was
mignonettes, planted from seedlings from bunnings, transplanted early sep, took a
bit of time to start but then did fine. Second batch was cos, planted mid
oct from seedlings from bunnings again.

They both went to seed after a very hot spell in mid Nov, got quite
a few leaves to eat until then. I've since planted some more icebers, 'salad mix', cos, and lollo
rossa, mostly from seedings from bunnings, but the salad mix from someone flogging
them at the sunday market.

None of them have done much except the icebergs.
They havent died, just havent done much growth wise.

The icebergs did grow noticeably, up to big bigger than a large
grapefruit size, but no hearts. Since the first two batches had gone to seed I did
start using leaves off the small icebergs. Now even the icebergs seen to have
stopped. We have had much hotter weather obviously, in fact a couple of
patches of a week or so over 40C, with some rather cooler times in between.

They get plenty of water, once a day from one of those
soaker hoses that sort of weep water rather than spray it.

Is it just that they dont like the very hot weather ?

The net seems to suggest that thats the problem.

Are there any varietys that do much better in the very hot weather ?

Go to top for Links to various....helpfull websites.



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Old 24-01-2010, 08:17 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:40:03 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?


Plastic stops the soil "breathing"

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Old 24-01-2010, 01:37 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

"0tterbot" wrote in message news:Hdu6n.2876

i haven't worked out yet whether seasol/poo stew is a huge help to lettuce
or not, but it does seem to be anecdotally.


I've always believed that Seasol has been of a lot of use in preventing
transplant shock. It may just be co-incidence, but if I've ever forgotten
to water seedligns in with seasol, they haven't got off to as good a start
as if I do. I guess that would count as anecdotal evidence.

On another subject: Up for an Axe murderer's lunch?


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Old 24-01-2010, 01:53 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:40:03 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?


Plastic stops the soil "breathing"


Plastic is also the material you use to solarise your soil. By that I meant
hat you use the plastic to heat up the ground to kill weeds. It would do
the same to lettuce.


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Old 24-01-2010, 07:17 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

FarmI wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote:


What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?


Plastic stops the soil "breathing"


Plastic is also the material you use to solarise your soil. By that I meant hat you use the plastic to heat up the
ground to kill weeds. It would do the same to lettuce.


Not if you cover it with something like straw, masonite etc.




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Old 25-01-2010, 02:11 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

"Rod Speed" writes:
None of them have done much except the icebergs.
They havent died, just havent done much growth wise.


You need good soil with heaps of rotted manure for leafy vegetables.
Unimproved soil will see them just sit and stagnate, at best, before
dying or going to seed. Nitrogen-rich soil is an absolute necessity.

In summer, hold off planting out seedlings until the weather forecast
is for a couple of cool, showery days. Plant in the cool near evening,
and provide each seedling with a couple of sprigs of fern (or twigs off
any shrub with small shady leaves), to protect the seedlings when the
sun comes out. If they at any stage lie flat on the ground, you have
lost them. Water well immediately, and 4 or 5 times daily after that
while they get established. If they at any time wilt, you have lost
out. Try and plant out so each carries its own cube of potting mix, to
avoid disturbing the roots. Obviously, it's the roots that are
responsible for the uptake of water.

In summer, the hearting lettuce easily get sunburnt where part turns
white or brown. The small, quick-growing leafy varieties are to be
recommended for home gardeners.

Watering once a day is way too infrequent; three times in hot weather
at least, with sprinklers during the hottest part of the day. If they
at any time wilt, you have lost out: they will never reach their best.

My father used to grow and sell the big hearting type, Great Lakes I
think they were. They take too long to mature for my liking.

I only ever grew Buttercrunch. They were SUPPOSED to be a cool weather
variety, but they seemed to love summer provided I kept the water up
to them. Can't say I've seen those in the seed merchants for a long
time. They don't heart, so I could pick a few outside leaves off as
desired.

No one has mentioned birds. Sparrows love lettuce, and will devour them
right to ground level. Fashion a piece of shade cloth right and it
should serve the two functions: sun block and bird protection. Indian
Mynahs are also on my list of suspects.

And need I draw attention to slugs and snails? (Just don't kill the
giant leopard slugs; these guys are carnivorous and eat the pesky
ones.)

They get plenty of water, once a day from one of those
soaker hoses that sort of weep water rather than spray it.


That's not "plenty". You'll be lucky if they even hang on to life at
that infrequent rate. Three times, or you're not serious. The
evaporation from lettuce leaves is extreme.

Is it just that they dont like the very hot weather ?


Sure is. And it causes them to bolt to seed.

Can you try growing them in pots, so that you can move them around
to be in shade during midday and afternoon?

For "always fresh" leaves you can buy a hydroponic lettuce from the
supermarket, then sit it in a bowl of water near a bright window and
pick off 3 or 4 leaves each day. Could even try planting it in wet
soil to see whether it won't grow a bit more while you're harvesting.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
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Old 25-01-2010, 02:57 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

John Savage wrote
Rod Speed writes


None of them have done much except the icebergs.
They havent died, just havent done much growth wise.


You need good soil with heaps of rotted manure for leafy vegetables.
Unimproved soil will see them just sit and stagnate, at best, before
dying or going to seed. Nitrogen-rich soil is an absolute necessity.


The first two batches of cos and mignonettes did fine, planted in spring.

In summer, hold off planting out seedlings until the weather forecast
is for a couple of cool, showery days. Plant in the cool near
evening, and provide each seedling with a couple of sprigs of fern
(or twigs off any shrub with small shady leaves), to protect the
seedlings when the sun comes out. If they at any stage lie flat on
the ground, you have lost them. Water well immediately, and 4 or 5
times daily after that while they get established. If they at any
time wilt, you have lost out. Try and plant out so each carries its
own cube of potting mix, to avoid disturbing the roots.


Yeah, I have always done that.

Obviously, it's the roots that are responsible for the uptake of water.


In summer, the hearting lettuce easily get sunburnt where
part turns white or brown. The small, quick-growing leafy
varieties are to be recommended for home gardeners.


Watering once a day is way too infrequent;


Yeah, I have changed to twice now.

three times in hot weather at least,


I'm currently finding that twice a day keeps the soil moist.

with sprinklers during the hottest part of the day. If they at
any time wilt, you have lost out: they will never reach their best.


My father used to grow and sell the big hearting type, Great Lakes
I think they were. They take too long to mature for my liking.


I only ever grew Buttercrunch. They were SUPPOSED to be a cool weather
variety, but they seemed to love summer provided I kept the water up
to them. Can't say I've seen those in the seed merchants for a long time.


You can get them from some of the online seed operations.

They don't heart, so I could pick a few outside leaves off as desired.


Yeah, thats what I want most of the lettuce for, I mostly use those
on open sandwitches, the dome of the fresh loaf of bread that I do
every 4 days and eat with salami, relish and some lettuce leaves on.

I prefer the iceberg style lettuce for cutting a wedge
of the heart when eating pizza and quiche etc.

No one has mentioned birds. Sparrows love lettuce,
and will devour them right to ground level.


Yeah, thats what happened with the only batch of iceberg seeds
that germinated, because I didnt keep the soil wet enough.

I've since gone for bird netting because the blackbirds were
getting half the strawberrys. I do get lots of sparrows.

Fashion a piece of shade cloth right and it should
serve the two functions: sun block and bird protection.


Just trying the shade cloth now on the Lettuce Combo's.

Indian Mynahs are also on my list of suspects.


The fella who flogged strawberrys at the sunday market
said that the blackbirds loved his strawberrys and thats
what the net says too. I certainly have some of those.

Havent noticed any Indian Mynahs.

And need I draw attention to slugs and snails?


I havent seen any slugs at all yet. Have seen just two
snails which I just picked up and chucked away.

(Just don't kill the giant leopard slugs; these
guys are carnivorous and eat the pesky ones.)


Havent seen any of those.

They get plenty of water, once a day from one of those
soaker hoses that sort of weep water rather than spray it.


That's not "plenty".


Yeah, realised that latter.

You'll be lucky if they even hang on to life at that infrequent rate.


None of them have died, just dont do anything.

The second batch of mignonettes have now gone to seed without providing
any edible leaves, no more than 200mm tall and not that much leaf.

The iceberbs have gone to seed now too. They never did that well.

Three times, or you're not serious.


Why more than two if the dirt stays visibly moist on the surface ?

I didnt mention previously that when I water them I do end up with standing
water on the surface, which soaks in pretty quick once I turn the tap off.

The evaporation from lettuce leaves is extreme.


Is it just that they dont like the very hot weather ?


Sure is. And it causes them to bolt to seed.


Yeah, half of them have gone to seed now.

Can you try growing them in pots, so that you can move
them around to be in shade during midday and afternoon?


Yes, and I will try that now.

For "always fresh" leaves you can buy a hydroponic lettuce from the
supermarket, then sit it in a bowl of water near a bright window and
pick off 3 or 4 leaves each day. Could even try planting it in wet
soil to see whether it won't grow a bit more while you're harvesting.


Didnt think of that, I'll try that. None of them in my supermarkets
have any roots tho, they are always cut off flush with the icebergs.

Havent been buying the non icebergs, have to have a closer look at those.


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Old 25-01-2010, 12:44 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
FarmI wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote:


What's wrong with just a sheet of plastic to stop the soil drying out ?


Plastic stops the soil "breathing"


Plastic is also the material you use to solarise your soil. By that I
meant hat you use the plastic to heat up the ground to kill weeds. It
would do the same to lettuce.


Not if you cover it with something like straw, masonite etc.


Try it and tell us about the results.


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Old 28-01-2010, 11:10 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

Rod Speed wrote
0tterbot wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Blair wrote


I tried to grow lettuce last summer here in Perth.
Never again - they required constant water


Yeah, managed to **** up the ones the nursery said did fine in the hot weather,


lettuce can be fascinatingly difficult!! (at any rate, i've been
fascinated with the difficulties i've had ;-)


Thats the only real problem I have had, they dont like our stinking hot weather much.


firstly, you may not have ****ed them up


Yeah, they have since come good, new leaves, and they didnt
get the shadecloth either, I didnt buy enough to shade both
these and the new punnet so I shaded the new punnet.

Hasnt been quite as hot tho, we havent actually gone over 40C for more than a week now.

Yeah, I did, I let them dry out far too much so they were visibly wilted and lying on the ground.


And then repeated that the next day too.


Just went back to get some more and he gave me the punnet for free.
Didnt even mention my ****up either.


- not all nurserypersons have any idea about growing stuff,


She said she had planted some herself and was already eating leaves
off them a week later, so thats what happened, not her prediction.


Still havent got anything like that myself, even with the latest punnet.

The new punnet looks fine, but no real progress yet, but that not
even a week from the transplanting shock yet, so its a bit early yet,
although she did presumably transplant hers. Might go and ask her today.

I didnt think to ask her where she was growing them, shaded etc, and she wasnt there today.


John Savage wrote elsewhere

In summer, hold off planting out seedlings until the weather forecast is for a couple of cool, showery days.


Thats just not feasible here, we often only get one or two of
those a summer, sometimes not even one of those a summer.

Plant in the cool near evening,


Yeah, I do that in summer.

and provide each seedling with a couple of sprigs of fern (or twigs off any shrub with small shady leaves), to protect
the seedlings when the sun comes out.


I've planted the latest punnet under shade cloth but its not big enough to give
permanent shade, so its mostly just shade during the main part of the day.

If they at any stage lie flat on the ground, you have lost them.


Turns out they all survived fine. Some doing better than others.


& babies in punnets from bunnings (or similar) can simply be a bad
bet - firstly, transplanting causes some element of stress to them
(therefore they bolt sooner)


Never had that problem.

and secondly they've not had the chance to grow in their conditions
(as punnets are always coddled but gardens can't be so much) so they
therefore bolt sooner.


summer is hard for lettuce, it doesn't like heat too much.


Yeah, that certainly appears to be the problem and its
****ing hot here, 10 days over 40C isnt that unusual.

try them in semi-shaded pots/foam boxes


Yeah, about to try that.

or some other sort of semi-shaded location, or under shade cloth in
the garden. shade will help enormously.


Yeah, just got some shade cloth this morning, havent tried it yet.

I might try some inside too, under the cooler.

if you plant seed direct (whether in the garden or a pot) you will
have much more success too,


I didnt, I appeared to let them dry out too much.

Only one batch germinated and needless to say the bloody birds got
the lot in one meal.
Got bird nets now, so that wont happen again.

But the net says that they wont germinate over 30C. Not clear what
that means, whether its any time of the day over 30C or if the minimum temp is
over 30C.
There is no chance of seeds germinating if its any time over 30C, we
hardly ever get a day when it isnt and dont often get that even
inside.
We dont often get overnight minimums over 30C tho.

I did get some to germinate fine in seed trays that I kept in plastic
to keep them wet, but thats just my seedlings as opposed to Bunnings etc.

I should be able to keep them wet enough in the ground
with plastic etc, but its not clear about that temperature yet.

it avoids the problems mentioned above. sow thickly & then thin them
out (the second session of thinnings when the thinnings are baby-sized but big enough to eat).


they like a LOT of water relative to many other plants, as their
structure is mostly water. failure to water leads to bolting!


And they dont have much in the way of roots either.

I was previously giving them a good soak each day, mostly in the
evenings, so there was standing water on the ground. But thats
nowhere near enough now in the hot weather, so I have changed
over to twice a day now, and will see how that goes.

I'll probably get another punnet of them and keep them well watered,
more for academic interest than anything else. The stuff we buy in
the supermarket
right thru the summer must be coming from somewhere


cooler areas, and often grown in shadehouses (or similar). but
they're not really a summer crop. other greens like mizuna are a
better bet.


Can you use that on sandwitches ?

you can also track down seed of lettuce cultivars which are intended
to cope better with summer, but no guarantees there.


Yeah, found one site that lists those, but they still say
that even the H ones should be planted from April.

and if they can do it, I should be able to too. I just want
leaves, dont care if I cant get icebergs to grow.


leafies are better, as even when (rather than if ;-)) they bolt,
you've still eaten from them. whereas icebergs & other hearting
lettuces give less, & are more of a risk re bolting well before
maturity.


Yeah, mate of mine had some very decent ones but he's so slack that
he doesnt even know what variety they were. He did give me some,
and gave me some tomatoes at the same time, so it most likely would
have been late summer, but I didnt think to record when it was.

He let them all go to seed and collected the seed, and tried to
plant the seeds this spring, but appears to have not kept them
we enough and didnt get any germination at all. Must ask him
if he has any seeds left, think he planted the lot. I could certainly
go to some trouble to germinate them like in the fridge etc if there
are some left.
Might try some lettuce in pots inside, I obviously have an
evaporative cooler on the roof and just bask under that in that sort
of hot weather.


inside is not the worst idea, but they will still need some sun.
perhaps a spot that's sunny in the mornings.


Yeah, thats what I meant, should have said that. I have 7 patio doors
on the north side of the house for passive solar and the one East facing
door certainly does get sun in the morning so there would be fine.

Concrete and quarry tiles floor, so I can do that anywhere I like.

i had my best crop ever by growing an heirloom mix, sown direct,
under shadecloth, but they still bolted before i wanted them to. but,
sowing them is simple & you get loads this way & can re-sow every 2
weeks or a month for a supply of nice baby greens. even if they still
bolt too young, you've had soemthing from them.


So what about that 30C germination question ?

in winter, lettuce is a pain in the arse as well. but, there are
many winter cultivars (they're often the red lettuces).


i haven't worked out yet whether seasol/poo stew is a huge help to
lettuce or not, but it does seem to be anecdotally.


Havent tried that yet. Just used pelletised veg starter fertiliser
and when they grew fine, didnt bother with anything else.

I plan to collect the seed off those, mignonettes and cos.

kylie



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Old 30-01-2010, 09:25 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Lettuce growing.

"Rod Speed" writes:
John Savage wrote:
three times in hot weather at least,


I'm currently finding that twice a day keeps the soil moist.


EXposed to scorching heat, the roots can't draw sufficient water to over-
come losses. So the only way you can reduce the plant's stress is to
keep the leaves moist by periodic sprinkling from noon till 2, or
something like that, in addition to morning and evening watering.

I prefer the iceberg style lettuce for cutting a wedge
of the heart when eating pizza and quiche etc.


There is no lettuce sweeter or better tasting, than the iceberg.

I've since gone for bird netting because the blackbirds were
getting half the strawberrys. I do get lots of sparrows.


I've never lived where where there were blackbirds. It would be 12 or
so years since I've last seen a sparrow here in Sydney, probably a
combination of Indian Mynahs shouldering in and taking over their
nesting spots and the proliferation of urban currawongs predating
on nestling sparrows.

For "always fresh" leaves you can buy a hydroponic lettuce from the
supermarket, then sit it in a bowl of water near a bright window and
pick off 3 or 4 leaves each day. Could even try planting it in wet
soil to see whether it won't grow a bit more while you're harvesting.


Didnt think of that, I'll try that. None of them in my supermarkets
have any roots tho, they are always cut off flush with the icebergs.


Probably your best bet. I see them in the gourmet or organic section.
No firm heart, partly wrapped in cellophane to keep the roots moist
I think.

Alternative greens include nasturtium and water-cress (both a bit
peppery), mustard and cress (but attractive to aphids), celery (eat the
tender leaves of young plants), various sprouts you can grow in a
bottle. Maybe the native warrigal greens, but I haven't tried. Pig weed
is edible. None of these can compare with lettuce, though.

Havent been buying the non icebergs, have to have a closer look at
those.


None are as sweet as a good iceberg. When you buy young lettuce
without a heart, you can eat the lot; whereas with the hearted ones
I seem to end up discarding half the plant by throwing away the bitter
'outside' leaves.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
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