#1   Report Post  
Old 05-08-2003, 01:12 AM
David Hare-Scott
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds

Starting in 3 weeks I am revegetating parts of a country property that
is just pasture. This will require many hundreds, ultimately thousands,
of trees, shrubs and ground covers to be planted. Except for one area
for fruit, veges and some exotic ornamentals these will all be natives
selected for being suited to the district. There will be 10 to 15 main
species that will be planted in bulk and it is these that I am concerned
with here. I will attempt to get material that was drawn from the
district or nearby if I can.

What is the best way to go about this - should I use tube stock or
seeds? This is assuming that I can get the species that I want in
either form. Obviously if a species I want is only available in one
form then that's it.

If I start my own seeds and plant out the seedlings it is likely to be
cheaper as tubes are about $1.50 each in bulk and seeds are about $10 to
$25 per 25gms which is several hundred to many thousand seeds depending
on species. If I can get sufficient viable seedlings starting from seed
this approach looks like saving a couple of thousand dollars which could
be put to good use!

Using tube stock will give me a head start in time but how much time?
In other words how old are good tube seedlings that are not rootbound?
Time is an issue to some extent as I need to get up some wind breaks and
nurse species ASAP

Also tubes mean I don't have to worry about germination rates. However,
if I buy 3000 seeds the germination rate doesn't have to be great to get
a few hundred plants. I suppose it would be smart to steer away from
those species that are particularly tricky to germinate and get those as
tubes.

I will have the space and work-time to raise the seedlings and early
spring ( in a sheltered spot) would seem a good time to start them. I
guess the question is: starting in September where will I be in 12
months if I
(1) start seeds and plant them out when big enough
(2) plant tubestock

Any thoughts on this issue, especially if you have experience in this
area, would be much appreciated. Also I have been looking for a book
that covers raising natives from seed in some depth but not found
anything yet, a reference here would be good.

David


  #2   Report Post  
Old 05-08-2003, 01:42 AM
dave
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in
u:

Starting in 3 weeks I am revegetating parts of a country property that
is just pasture. This will require many hundreds, ultimately thousands,
of trees, shrubs and ground covers to be planted. Except for one area
for fruit, veges and some exotic ornamentals these will all be natives
selected for being suited to the district. There will be 10 to 15 main
species that will be planted in bulk and it is these that I am concerned
with here. I will attempt to get material that was drawn from the
district or nearby if I can.

What is the best way to go about this - should I use tube stock or
seeds? This is assuming that I can get the species that I want in
either form. Obviously if a species I want is only available in one
form then that's it.

If I start my own seeds and plant out the seedlings it is likely to be
cheaper as tubes are about $1.50 each in bulk and seeds are about $10 to
$25 per 25gms which is several hundred to many thousand seeds depending
on species. If I can get sufficient viable seedlings starting from seed
this approach looks like saving a couple of thousand dollars which could
be put to good use!

Using tube stock will give me a head start in time but how much time?
In other words how old are good tube seedlings that are not rootbound?
Time is an issue to some extent as I need to get up some wind breaks and
nurse species ASAP

Also tubes mean I don't have to worry about germination rates. However,
if I buy 3000 seeds the germination rate doesn't have to be great to get
a few hundred plants. I suppose it would be smart to steer away from
those species that are particularly tricky to germinate and get those as
tubes.

I will have the space and work-time to raise the seedlings and early
spring ( in a sheltered spot) would seem a good time to start them. I
guess the question is: starting in September where will I be in 12
months if I
(1) start seeds and plant them out when big enough
(2) plant tubestock

Any thoughts on this issue, especially if you have experience in this
area, would be much appreciated. Also I have been looking for a book
that covers raising natives from seed in some depth but not found
anything yet, a reference here would be good.

David


hi,

My thoughts on the issues. I would use a mixture of tubestock and seeds.
Tubestocks will naturally grow quicker than seeds as you do not have to
wait for germination etc. I would place quick growing native tubestock
around as for the windbreak you need, and at the same time raise seeds.
Ideally though I would probably stick just to tubestock but if money is an
issue, tubestock fast growing trees, and ground covers as they will provide
windbreaks and shelter, then you will be able to plant out smaller
seedlings as they will be protected.

I have a book about growing australian native plants from seed by Marray
Ralph, it covers treatment needed and in some species the expected
germination.
  #3   Report Post  
Old 05-08-2003, 10:42 AM
Terry Collins
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds

David Hare-Scott wrote:

....snip.....

I will attempt to get material that was drawn from the
district or nearby if I can.


I am not sure I really understand your question here in relation to the
above sentence. If you want to ensure you are getting local providence,
then either you do your own seed collecting and raise your own tube
stock, or you pay someone else to do it. It might be more feasible for
you to collect the seed from local stuff and send it off to be returned
as seed stock from a professional seed stock propagator. It really
sounds to me that you are not looking at local providence, but species
that occur locally (from any providence).


...snip....

If I start my own seeds and plant out the seedlings it is likely to be
cheaper as tubes are about $1.50 each in bulk and seeds are about $10 to
$25 per 25gms which is several hundred to many thousand seeds depending
on species. If I can get sufficient viable seedlings starting from seed
this approach looks like saving a couple of thousand dollars which could
be put to good use!


Umm, how much do you value your time? Do you regularly raise seed stock?
If not, then I would suggest it will cost you more to raise your own
seed stock.


Using tube stock will give me a head start in time but how much time?
In other words how old are good tube seedlings that are not rootbound?
Time is an issue to some extent as I need to get up some wind breaks and
nurse species ASAP


Why not consider doing it in stages over time, unless you really are
doing it in a big way and hiring big machinery. This would fit in with
raising your own and make it more fun. You see a local species that you
like, collect seed, raise your seedlings, plant out and repeat. Any
surplus seed you collect, you can also broadcast in situ, and see if it
comes up by itself.

This has the advantage that you don't suddenly invest in a large amount
of one species that all die because this year is dry, or has big winds.
This is the advantage of local providence - you know it has been
selected for your area.

My background is more DIY from collecting local seeds and raising a few
plants for bush regeneration sites and the last year has seen a
significant number of plants in our mass plantings from the last five
years die off from drought. So can you also ensure that they are going
to get adeaquate watering to allow them to survive. (thinking of all
those road side plantings that never go anywhere).


--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, GIS, Printing,
Publishing

"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
  #4   Report Post  
Old 06-08-2003, 04:22 AM
Bill McBride
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds

I have over the years planted about 600 tube stock native and non-natives on
my property. I ripped the ground prior to planting stuck them in and left
them to there own devices (watering them was not really an option). Most of
the natives have survived but with incredibly variable growth rates. Two of
the same species planted 5 meters apart and one is now a tree the other
still a shrub (for want of better description). Others sat in the ground
doing nothing for years and then sprang into growth. So don't expect to
plant 100 arcasia ?? and have a nice even hedge of them in 5 years time.
FWIW planting a few hundred tubes by yourself is a big job if you value you
time highly.

The seed collecting/buying I have done has not resulted in many plants, I
have one Silver Princess Gum that survived but that is about the end of the
bought seeds list. Though mostly from neglect at critical times (work gets
in the way of life often)

--
Cheers

Bill


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
David Hare-Scott wrote:

...snip.....

I will attempt to get material that was drawn from the
district or nearby if I can.


I am not sure I really understand your question here in relation to the
above sentence. If you want to ensure you are getting local providence,
then either you do your own seed collecting and raise your own tube
stock, or you pay someone else to do it. It might be more feasible for
you to collect the seed from local stuff and send it off to be returned
as seed stock from a professional seed stock propagator. It really
sounds to me that you are not looking at local providence, but species
that occur locally (from any providence).


..snip....

If I start my own seeds and plant out the seedlings it is likely to be
cheaper as tubes are about $1.50 each in bulk and seeds are about $10 to
$25 per 25gms which is several hundred to many thousand seeds depending
on species. If I can get sufficient viable seedlings starting from seed
this approach looks like saving a couple of thousand dollars which could
be put to good use!


Umm, how much do you value your time? Do you regularly raise seed stock?
If not, then I would suggest it will cost you more to raise your own
seed stock.


Using tube stock will give me a head start in time but how much time?
In other words how old are good tube seedlings that are not rootbound?
Time is an issue to some extent as I need to get up some wind breaks and
nurse species ASAP


Why not consider doing it in stages over time, unless you really are
doing it in a big way and hiring big machinery. This would fit in with
raising your own and make it more fun. You see a local species that you
like, collect seed, raise your seedlings, plant out and repeat. Any
surplus seed you collect, you can also broadcast in situ, and see if it
comes up by itself.

This has the advantage that you don't suddenly invest in a large amount
of one species that all die because this year is dry, or has big winds.
This is the advantage of local providence - you know it has been
selected for your area.

My background is more DIY from collecting local seeds and raising a few
plants for bush regeneration sites and the last year has seen a
significant number of plants in our mass plantings from the last five
years die off from drought. So can you also ensure that they are going
to get adeaquate watering to allow them to survive. (thinking of all
those road side plantings that never go anywhere).


--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, GIS, Printing,
Publishing

"People without trees are like fish without clean water"



  #5   Report Post  
Old 06-08-2003, 04:43 AM
David Hare-Scott
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds


"dave" sparks_davidAThotmailDOTcom wrote in message
u...
My thoughts on the issues. I would use a mixture of tubestock and

seeds.

I am heading that direction.


Tubestocks will naturally grow quicker than seeds as you do not have

to
wait for germination etc. I would place quick growing native tubestock
around as for the windbreak you need, and at the same time raise

seeds.
Ideally though I would probably stick just to tubestock but if money

is an
issue, tubestock fast growing trees, and ground covers as they will

provide
windbreaks and shelter, then you will be able to plant out smaller
seedlings as they will be protected.


Yup

I have a book about growing australian native plants from seed by

Marray
Ralph, it covers treatment needed and in some species the expected
germination.


Looks good

Thanks

David




  #6   Report Post  
Old 06-08-2003, 05:02 AM
David Hare-Scott
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
David Hare-Scott wrote:

...snip.....

I will attempt to get material that was drawn from the
district or nearby if I can.


I am not sure I really understand your question here in relation to

the
above sentence. If you want to ensure you are getting local

providence,
then either you do your own seed collecting and raise your own tube
stock, or you pay someone else to do it.


It looks that way, none of the suppliers of tubes or seed that I can
access who give the area of origin seem to collect in my area. I think
I will just have to settle for material from an area of similar
characteristics.


It might be more feasible for
you to collect the seed from local stuff and send it off to be

returned
as seed stock from a professional seed stock propagator. It really
sounds to me that you are not looking at local providence, but species
that occur locally (from any providence).


Whatever was "native" to the area is very hard to determine as there has
been 150 years of clearing, farming and introduction of species. I am
not so much trying to return it to how it was at some point in the dim
past but to select species and varieties/cultivars of those that will
succeed in the long term with the least amount of effort.

..snip....

If I start my own seeds and plant out the seedlings it is likely to

be
cheaper as tubes are about $1.50 each in bulk and seeds are about

$10 to
$25 per 25gms which is several hundred to many thousand seeds

depending
on species. If I can get sufficient viable seedlings starting from

seed
this approach looks like saving a couple of thousand dollars which

could
be put to good use!


Umm, how much do you value your time? Do you regularly raise seed

stock?
If not, then I would suggest it will cost you more to raise your own
seed stock.


In my "day" job I value my time very highly but for this I am prepared
to invest time to save cash, as a way of learning and also for something
constructive to do while waiting for various authorities to give
permission for other aspects of this project.


Using tube stock will give me a head start in time but how much

time?
In other words how old are good tube seedlings that are not

rootbound?
Time is an issue to some extent as I need to get up some wind breaks

and
nurse species ASAP


Why not consider doing it in stages over time, unless you really are
doing it in a big way and hiring big machinery. This would fit in with
raising your own and make it more fun.


Yes

You see a local species that you
like, collect seed, raise your seedlings, plant out and repeat. Any
surplus seed you collect, you can also broadcast in situ, and see if

it
comes up by itself.


I will try this as a supplement to other strategies.

This has the advantage that you don't suddenly invest in a large

amount
of one species that all die because this year is dry, or has big

winds.
This is the advantage of local providence - you know it has been
selected for your area.

My background is more DIY from collecting local seeds and raising a

few
plants for bush regeneration sites and the last year has seen a
significant number of plants in our mass plantings from the last five
years die off from drought. So can you also ensure that they are going
to get adeaquate watering to allow them to survive. (thinking of all
those road side plantings that never go anywhere).


I will be watering the seedlings (ute + tank + pump + river frontage) as
required for the first year or two, I am prepared to lose a few
specimens along the way just to ensure that the rows are not too neat
:-) but I want to avoid the wasted effort, money and space following
from a mass extinction caused by completely wrong choice of material.

Thanks for your ideas.

David


  #7   Report Post  
Old 06-08-2003, 05:02 AM
David Hare-Scott
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds


"Bill McBride" wrote in message
...
I have over the years planted about 600 tube stock native and

non-natives on
my property. I ripped the ground prior to planting stuck them in and

left
them to there own devices (watering them was not really an option).


I am in a position to water, which I will do to improve the
establishment rate.

Most of
the natives have survived but with incredibly variable growth rates.

Two of
the same species planted 5 meters apart and one is now a tree the

other
still a shrub (for want of better description). Others sat in the

ground
doing nothing for years and then sprang into growth. So don't expect

to
plant 100 arcasia ?? and have a nice even hedge of them in 5 years

time.

Neat hedges are not important, something to block the southerly wind is
though!

FWIW planting a few hundred tubes by yourself is a big job if you

value you
time highly.


Yes it will be an effort.

The seed collecting/buying I have done has not resulted in many

plants, I
have one Silver Princess Gum that survived but that is about the end

of the
bought seeds list. Though mostly from neglect at critical times (work

gets
in the way of life often)


As Ned Kelly said "... such is life...."

David


  #8   Report Post  
Old 06-08-2003, 07:14 AM
Chookie
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tube stock Vs Seeds

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Starting in 3 weeks I am revegetating parts of a country property that
is just pasture. This will require many hundreds, ultimately thousands,
of trees, shrubs and ground covers to be planted.


What do Landcare/Greening Australia/local conservation groups/your Dept of Ag
say? Will any of them help you?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"...children should continue to be breastfed... for up to two years of age
or beyond." -- Innocenti Declaration, Florence, 1 August 1990
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