Following the earlier discussion, it seems agreed that pumping the sand
full of yummy chook poo and nice fresh lawn clippings (with home-made
compost for dessert would be a good idea. (Raelene, thanks for URL you
posted previously for free manure and stuff - my computer got stolen almost
immediately afterwards and so I have lost it. Would you mind posting it
again please?)

Somebody in this group suggested adding clay so I looked into this a bit
more and, as luck would have it, the parents of a friend of a friend are
commercial farmers who are doing exactly this at the moment - adding clay
to their sand. These people are close to Albany so their sand is already
closer to soil than my stuff.

The rate of application of good clay to the sand that they are using is
200tonnes/hectare == 200000kg/10000m^2 == 20kg/m^2. Bearing in mind that
they are *not* adding any substantial amount of organic matter but that
they do already have some amount of clay as well as a reasonably good sub-
soil structure this amount seems to be about right for me also.

POOR ME
As it happens, I am one of those struggling but not-quite-starving adult
students that we all either know or hear about. The consequence and
relevence of this is that I can't, at the moment, afford the amounts of
chook poo and clay that is required.
/POOR ME

My question is, given that I can afford sufficient reticulation and that I
can get copious amounts of lawn clippings for free, would it be worth my
effort to place a reasonably thick layer of clippings over the sand, keep
it damp so that it rots (without or without the help of whatever worms can
live in pure sand), dig it in (using a rotary hoe) and repeat?

I expect it will be at least 3 months before I can get the chook poo in the
quantities required which means I should be able to dig in at least 3
layers of reasonably rotted grass clippings. I am thinking that a covering
of fresh clippings to about 300mm (12 inches) will be enough to encourage
fairly quick decomposition but not so deep as to encourage acidity and bad
smells?

If this seems like a good idea to those who know, my plan is, at the end of
the 3 or 4 months, to place a good thick layer of chook poo on the
sand/grass mixture and dig that in straight away - obviously keeping the
whole thing reasonably moist all the time.

After the chook poo, add the clay, dig in well and then continue with
layers of grass clippings and more chook poo. At this time I should be able
to get some good hot composting going as well at the rate of 1m^3 every 9
or 10 weeks. This, of course, will be used as a mulch at the end of the
process.

The figures I think I'm looking at are about 2 tonnes of clay (for a 100m^2
garden area), about 40m^3 of chook poo and about the same of grass
clippings.

I understand that the garden will be a bit higher at the end of this
process than it is now but that's not a problem since it is well below the
desired level already.

Sorry to keep coming back with almost the same questions but it's important
that I do this right as well as cheap.

TIA

Ivan.

ps I also understand this is going to be time consuming in terms of letting
nature take its course. I'm hoping to be able to plant out the garden
October/November of this year.

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
SNIP
My question is, given that I can afford sufficient reticulation and that I
can get copious amounts of lawn clippings for free, would it be worth my
effort to place a reasonably thick layer of clippings over the sand, keep
it damp so that it rots (without or without the help of whatever worms can
live in pure sand), dig it in (using a rotary hoe) and repeat?

Mixing it all together will only do good to the sand. The clippings are
organic matter, and will provide some nutrients to the lifeless sand.

I expect it will be at least 3 months before I can get the chook poo in
the
quantities required which means I should be able to dig in at least 3
layers of reasonably rotted grass clippings. I am thinking that a covering
of fresh clippings to about 300mm (12 inches) will be enough to encourage
fairly quick decomposition but not so deep as to encourage acidity and bad
smells?

Still mix it all together. You will get some smell from the clippings, but
turning it all over every few days will help it rot, and avoid smell.
Don't overdo it with the chook poo. I wouldn't go any stronger than 1 part
chook poo, 2 parts sand/grass mix. Even that's too strong, maybe 1/5th chook
poo would be better.

If this seems like a good idea to those who know, my plan is, at the end
of
the 3 or 4 months, to place a good thick layer of chook poo on the
sand/grass mixture and dig that in straight away - obviously keeping the
whole thing reasonably moist all the time.

Don't put it too thick, as mentioned above.

After the chook poo, add the clay, dig in well and then continue with
layers of grass clippings and more chook poo. At this time I should be
able
to get some good hot composting going as well at the rate of 1m^3 every 9
or 10 weeks. This, of course, will be used as a mulch at the end of the
process.

The grass sand and chook poo will be your hot compost, or you can get some
from elsewhere to add?
If it's the first don't bet on having really hot great compost. Other stuff
would be needed, such as sawdust and other organic material like leaves,
mulched leaves, etc. If it's the second mentioned, then Adding compost would
be good.

The figures I think I'm looking at are about 2 tonnes of clay (for a
100m^2
garden area), about 40m^3 of chook poo and about the same of grass
clippings.

That's a hell of a lot of chook poo. Roughly, that is 40 bobcat buckets of
poo and 40 of grass clippings. To give you an idea, again roughly 4-5 bobcat
buckets of soil fills a small dyna tipper truck (2 or 3 tonne truck).
Over a 100square metre area that will raise the ground level by approx 70cm.
It is too much chook poo by far. The amount of clay you would want to add to
that 100square metre area would be enough to raise the gl by about 20cm, and
then dig it in. Maybe add the same amount of grass clippings by size, not
weight, then probably 5cm high layer of chook poo at the most. No, actually
half that.
With all the clay, you will want to add some clay breaker or gypsum to it.

I understand that the garden will be a bit higher at the end of this
process than it is now but that's not a problem since it is well below the
desired level already.

Ok, so I read that bit now :-). I would possibly look at getting some clean
fill for the area first as it could be cheaper, then look at improving that.
The way you are going to do it may be costly, and the pH may need correcting
big time at the end of it all.
Really the chook poo can't be used as bulk for the clay and soil, it will
just add nutrients. The grass clippings will help, slightly, but that clay
still has to be broken down with gypsum.

Sorry to keep coming back with almost the same questions but it's
important
that I do this right as well as cheap.

That's fine, and good luck with it. My advice is my opinion from experience
of working with clay, chook poo and grass clippings on a daily basis
(almost) :-)
Seriously though, work with the clay and sand first. Plants will grow in
that if it's broken down well. Then the clippings will add organic matter,
then at the very end lightly dug in chook poo, then finally plant a couple
of weeks later.
TIA

Ivan.

ps I also understand this is going to be time consuming in terms of
letting
nature take its course. I'm hoping to be able to plant out the garden
October/November of this year.

Thanks for the reply Andrew ... I have made some more comments in the
quoted text.


"Andrew G" wrote in
:


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
SNIP


yet another snip


Mixing it all together will only do good to the sand. The clippings
are organic matter, and will provide some nutrients to the lifeless
sand.

I am thinking that a
covering of fresh clippings to about 300mm (12 inches) will be enough
to encourage fairly quick decomposition but not so deep as to
encourage acidity and bad smells?

Still mix it all together. You will get some smell from the
clippings, but turning it all over every few days will help it rot,
and avoid smell. Don't overdo it with the chook poo. I wouldn't go any
stronger than 1 part chook poo, 2 parts sand/grass mix. Even that's
too strong, maybe 1/5th chook poo would be better.


I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly when I wrote 300mm

The depth of grass clippings that's appropriate (I think) is closer to 30mm
rather than *300mm*. I didn't consider that AFAIK a rotary hoe is only good
to about 300mm anyway and so a covering of grass to that depth would
completely miss the point of mixing the grass and the sand together.


snippage


The grass sand and chook poo will be your hot compost, or you can get
some from elsewhere to add?
If it's the first don't bet on having really hot great compost. Other
stuff would be needed, such as sawdust and other organic material like
leaves, mulched leaves, etc. If it's the second mentioned, then Adding
compost would be good.



Yes, using the figures I gave originally you are quite correct.
Unfortunately, that quantity of grass and chook poo just won't be available
in the time frame required to hot compost all over the garden bed. So, the
process will be as I described before - thin layers of grass repeatedly
hoed under until the money is available for the chook poo and clay.

The compost will be home-made using grass, chook poo, straw, thin sunflower
stems, prunings from the neighbours plants *grins* and whatever else I can
get my grubby little mitts onto.




The figures I think I'm looking at are about 2 tonnes of clay (for a
100m^2
garden area), about 40m^3 of chook poo and about the same of grass
clippings.

That's a hell of a lot of chook poo. Roughly, that is 40 bobcat
buckets of poo and 40 of grass clippings. To give you an idea, again
roughly 4-5 bobcat buckets of soil fills a small dyna tipper truck (2
or 3 tonne truck). Over a 100square metre area that will raise the
ground level by approx 70cm.


Well, the way I see it: 100m^2 X raised height = 40m^3
Therefore, raised height = 40m^3 / 100m^2 which gives 0.4m or 400mm.

To simplify the maths, let's assume that I will use a total of 100m^3 of
material (grass and poo in some proportion). That will give a maximum
raised height of 1m.

My understanding of the decomposition process is that the raw materials
will eventually be reduced to 1/4 of original volume (based on using
compost bins and a "proper" C:N ratio at the start). I can see no reason
why this wouldn't apply in the garden as well - just far more slowly
because the C:N ratio will not necessarily be what is required for the
compost beasties to do their thing.

However, let's assume that the volume reduces by only 1/2. That would mean
I have raised the bed by 500mm. During this process there is certain to be
an amount of compaction caused by watering and finally by the binding
process of the clay that I intend to add at some stage. I'll assume this to
be 1/4 of the now reduced volume. 500/4 = 125. Therefore, the garden bed
will be raised by approximately 375mm - 400mm. This is about perfect for
me.


It is too much chook poo by far. The
amount of clay you would want to add to that 100square metre area
would be enough to raise the gl by about 20cm, and then dig it in.
Maybe add the same amount of grass clippings by size, not weight, then
probably 5cm high layer of chook poo at the most. No, actually half
that. With all the clay, you will want to add some clay breaker or
gypsum to it.


I don't know if it makes any difference to your comment, Andrew, "It is too
much chook poo by far." that I will be using "aged" chook poo from the egg
farm nearby ? (The farmer said to me "it's all dried out and ready to be
dug straight in"). My understanding of dried chook poo is that it has an
N:P:K analysis of approximately 0.4:0.3:0.3.

Were you referring to the nutrient levels that I would be adding of the
effect on the ground level ?

The clay effect I have no idea of and I am quite happy to take your word
regarding the effect on the ground level.


I understand that the garden will be a bit higher at the end of this
process than it is now but that's not a problem since it is well
below the desired level already.

Ok, so I read that bit now :-). I would possibly look at getting some
clean fill for the area first as it could be cheaper, then look at
improving that. The way you are going to do it may be costly, and the
pH may need correcting big time at the end of it all.
Really the chook poo can't be used as bulk for the clay and soil, it
will just add nutrients. The grass clippings will help, slightly, but
that clay still has to be broken down with gypsum.


Ah! Well, clean fill around here tends to mean even more sand - I have only
to dig 500mm and I have enough good yellow sand to start my own mine! I
acknowledge what you say about the expense but if I have to improve sand
anyway then I might as well use grass clippings for bulk and nitrogen
(hopefully) and chook poo for P and K. I expect that the chook poo and clay
will greatly assist the water retention properties of the sand also which,
apart from the nutrient aspect, is the point of the whole exercise.

Break down the clay ? I'm obviously so ignorant as to be dangerous! For
some reason I was under the impression that bought clay was delivered dried
and powdered and all I had to do was scatter it, dig it in and water it
well.



Sorry to keep coming back with almost the same questions but it's
important
that I do this right as well as cheap.

That's fine, and good luck with it. My advice is my opinion from
experience of working with clay, chook poo and grass clippings on a
daily basis (almost) :-)
Seriously though, work with the clay and sand first. Plants will grow
in that if it's broken down well. Then the clippings will add organic
matter, then at the very end lightly dug in chook poo, then finally
plant a couple of weeks later.


I would love to do the clay first but I really don't have the money for
that. Grass clippings are free including delivery to my door


I hope I haven't come across as actively disagreeing with your comments and
suggestions (apart from the maths . I really don't have much of an idea
about improving a large (for me) area and I am just trying to understand
the reasoning and discuss alternatives that are more financially workable
for me.

Thanks again for your comments - as you can see above you have given me
plenty to think about.

Ivan.

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
Thanks for the reply Andrew ... I have made some more comments in the
quoted text.


"Andrew G" wrote in
:


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
SNIP


yet another snip


Mixing it all together will only do good to the sand. The clippings
are organic matter, and will provide some nutrients to the lifeless
sand.

I am thinking that a
covering of fresh clippings to about 300mm (12 inches) will be enough
to encourage fairly quick decomposition but not so deep as to
encourage acidity and bad smells?

Still mix it all together. You will get some smell from the
clippings, but turning it all over every few days will help it rot,
and avoid smell. Don't overdo it with the chook poo. I wouldn't go any
stronger than 1 part chook poo, 2 parts sand/grass mix. Even that's
too strong, maybe 1/5th chook poo would be better.


I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly when I wrote 300mm

The depth of grass clippings that's appropriate (I think) is closer to
30mm
rather than *300mm*. I didn't consider that AFAIK a rotary hoe is only
good
to about 300mm anyway and so a covering of grass to that depth would
completely miss the point of mixing the grass and the sand together.


snippage


The grass sand and chook poo will be your hot compost, or you can get
some from elsewhere to add?
If it's the first don't bet on having really hot great compost. Other
stuff would be needed, such as sawdust and other organic material like
leaves, mulched leaves, etc. If it's the second mentioned, then Adding
compost would be good.



Yes, using the figures I gave originally you are quite correct.
Unfortunately, that quantity of grass and chook poo just won't be
available
in the time frame required to hot compost all over the garden bed. So, the
process will be as I described before - thin layers of grass repeatedly
hoed under until the money is available for the chook poo and clay.

The thin layers should do the job well.

The compost will be home-made using grass, chook poo, straw, thin
sunflower
stems, prunings from the neighbours plants *grins* and whatever else I can
get my grubby little mitts onto.


Great stuff, pity you couldn't make enough of that mix to raise the garden
to the height you want and mix with the sand.



The figures I think I'm looking at are about 2 tonnes of clay (for a
100m^2
garden area), about 40m^3 of chook poo and about the same of grass
clippings.

That's a hell of a lot of chook poo. Roughly, that is 40 bobcat
buckets of poo and 40 of grass clippings. To give you an idea, again
roughly 4-5 bobcat buckets of soil fills a small dyna tipper truck (2
or 3 tonne truck). Over a 100square metre area that will raise the
ground level by approx 70cm.


Well, the way I see it: 100m^2 X raised height = 40m^3
Therefore, raised height = 40m^3 / 100m^2 which gives 0.4m or 400mm.

To simplify the maths, let's assume that I will use a total of 100m^3 of
material (grass and poo in some proportion). That will give a maximum
raised height of 1m.

Yeah I agree, I just made the wrong assumption. I always think of 20cm high
or so for raised gardens :-)

My understanding of the decomposition process is that the raw materials
will eventually be reduced to 1/4 of original volume (based on using
compost bins and a "proper" C:N ratio at the start). I can see no reason
why this wouldn't apply in the garden as well - just far more slowly
because the C:N ratio will not necessarily be what is required for the
compost beasties to do their thing.

However, let's assume that the volume reduces by only 1/2. That would mean
I have raised the bed by 500mm. During this process there is certain to be
an amount of compaction caused by watering and finally by the binding
process of the clay that I intend to add at some stage. I'll assume this
to
be 1/4 of the now reduced volume. 500/4 = 125. Therefore, the garden bed
will be raised by approximately 375mm - 400mm. This is about perfect for
me.

Good point, and something I never thought of.


It is too much chook poo by far. The
amount of clay you would want to add to that 100square metre area
would be enough to raise the gl by about 20cm, and then dig it in.
Maybe add the same amount of grass clippings by size, not weight, then
probably 5cm high layer of chook poo at the most. No, actually half
that. With all the clay, you will want to add some clay breaker or
gypsum to it.


I don't know if it makes any difference to your comment, Andrew, "It is
too
much chook poo by far." that I will be using "aged" chook poo from the egg
farm nearby ? (The farmer said to me "it's all dried out and ready to be
dug straight in"). My understanding of dried chook poo is that it has an
N:P:K analysis of approximately 0.4:0.3:0.3.

The aged chook poo will break down less, and be less "burning" to plants,
so that will be good.
Still, take into account that it may have an effect on the roots of plants
in high doses.

Were you referring to the nutrient levels that I would be adding of the
effect on the ground level ?

Kinda both really. Still as you explain it above it becomes clearer.

The clay effect I have no idea of and I am quite happy to take your word
regarding the effect on the ground level.

Look down to where you say how the clay will come deleivered.


I understand that the garden will be a bit higher at the end of this
process than it is now but that's not a problem since it is well
below the desired level already.

Ok, so I read that bit now :-). I would possibly look at getting some
clean fill for the area first as it could be cheaper, then look at
improving that. The way you are going to do it may be costly, and the
pH may need correcting big time at the end of it all.
Really the chook poo can't be used as bulk for the clay and soil, it
will just add nutrients. The grass clippings will help, slightly, but
that clay still has to be broken down with gypsum.


Ah! Well, clean fill around here tends to mean even more sand - I have
only
to dig 500mm and I have enough good yellow sand to start my own mine! I
acknowledge what you say about the expense but if I have to improve sand
anyway then I might as well use grass clippings for bulk and nitrogen
(hopefully) and chook poo for P and K. I expect that the chook poo and
clay
will greatly assist the water retention properties of the sand also which,
apart from the nutrient aspect, is the point of the whole exercise.

Yeah the clay definitely will, and the chook poo to a small extent.

Break down the clay ? I'm obviously so ignorant as to be dangerous! For
some reason I was under the impression that bought clay was delivered
dried
and powdered and all I had to do was scatter it, dig it in and water it
well.

I have no idea. As I work at a golf course basically sitting on clay/rock,
then any excavations we do involves messy sticky clodding clay, where you
can end up standing 2 inches taller after walking through it. We recently
rebuilt a green and this large clodding clay clumps was used to shap it and
the surrounding area.
I have never seen the particles, but it sounds good, and if thats the case
disregard anything I said about clay :-)



Sorry to keep coming back with almost the same questions but it's
important
that I do this right as well as cheap.

That's fine, and good luck with it. My advice is my opinion from
experience of working with clay, chook poo and grass clippings on a
daily basis (almost) :-)
Seriously though, work with the clay and sand first. Plants will grow
in that if it's broken down well. Then the clippings will add organic
matter, then at the very end lightly dug in chook poo, then finally
plant a couple of weeks later.


I would love to do the clay first but I really don't have the money for
that. Grass clippings are free including delivery to my door


I hope I haven't come across as actively disagreeing with your comments
and
suggestions (apart from the maths . I really don't have much of an idea
about improving a large (for me) area and I am just trying to understand
the reasoning and discuss alternatives that are more financially workable
for me.
No problems, it all good
Thanks again for your comments - as you can see above you have given me
plenty to think about.

Ivan.

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
Following the earlier discussion, it seems agreed that pumping the sand
full of yummy chook poo and nice fresh lawn clippings (with home-made
compost for dessert would be a good idea. (Raelene, thanks for URL you
posted previously for free manure and stuff - my computer got stolen
almost
immediately afterwards and so I have lost it. Would you mind posting it
again please?)

**snip snip**

Ok. I said.............

Ivan: go to ------------ http://www.mulchnet.com/

If you get some, I want half. ;-)

There ya go.

Raelene
xxx

"Raels" wrote in
u:

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
my
computer got stolen
almost
immediately afterwards and so I have lost it. Would you mind posting
it again please?)

**snip snip**

Ok. I said.............

Ivan: go to ------------ http://www.mulchnet.com/

If you get some, I want half. ;-)

There ya go.

Raelene
xxx


Thanks very much Raelene - I'll let you know when/if I get some from them


You know, it's not the loss of the computer itself that really annoyed me
(although I would have been stuffed if I didn't have a couple of really
nice friends) it's the loss of all these little bits and pieces of
information that I had stored away. I wonder if the low-life scum who steal
things ever stop to think about the human impact - it would have been
better for me if they had just stolen money!

Ivan.
In a ranting mood because he's slowly realising just what it was that went
along with the computer

G'day Ivan,
I didn't catch the earlier post on this thread, so I
hope I'm not repeating other advice.
One really good way to put organic matter into a very sandy soil is to grow
a quick 'green manure' crop. Use a cheap cerial crop like wheat or rice, sow
it heavily and let it go for its life, then either mow it down as a mulch or
hoe through. This is also useful when resting beds. If you have a small area
just buy a kilo of brown unpolished rice ($1.50?) at the supermarket or a
kilo of wheat from your local produce store (.50c ?). If you have a large
area buy a 50k bag. Just broadcast it around by hand, and if you dont get a
good strike first up, then resow over the seedlings. They also drown out
most weeds. The majority of the organic matter is formed by the root systems
just where you want it, under the ground, and the more vigorus the better
and deeper they go. Obviosly water helps, but if your short of it, then sow
during or after a good rain. You will lose some to the birds etc, so just
repeat sowing as required, as the young shoots will provide increasing
protection to further sowings. If you use the organic matter mentioned
earlier, you can still sow over the top to aid breakdown, although the chook
poo will probably be very 'hot' and reduce seed strike, but so what?, just
keep sowing. One advantage is that you can have more control over the
timeing of your intended crop as you decide when to mulch or hoe, without
worrying if the manures are sufficiently broken down, just slash it down and
give it a few days to dry off. It also allows you to do different sections
at a time if you want to stager your plantings. The sands will improve the
more you use them, and try to leave as much root material in the ground as
you can when you harvest or slash, ie, when harvesting non-root crops, just
cut at ground level, dont pull them up.


China
Wingham
NSW

p.s. Yes the computer thing is a pain, I love humanity, it's just the people
I can't stand!


Spam robots this way please -

"China" wrote in
:

G'day Ivan,

snip green manure idea

Thanks China, I did consider growing wheat - I tend to get plenty left over
from the wild bird feeder (fussy bloody parrots but came to the
conclusion that green manuring is best left until after I get some other
organic matter into the ground. I can obtain and spread up to approximately
10m^3 of grass clippings per week - I just can't see a green manure crop of
any type providing this amount of organic material.

Another reason that I am tending towards grass clippings is that these are
provided by a professional lawn mower. My assumption is that people who can
afford a professional lawn mower and care enough about their lawn to do so
probably also fertilise and water their lawn regularly. In theory,
therefore, I am going to get not just the organic matter but the trace
elements and "extra" primary elements that other peoples fertiliser
provides. Maybe this isn't "strictly organic" but it's close enough for me
- growing my own green stuff will only recycle whatever is already in
the sand.

As far as green manure is concerned though I just recently read about the
value of sunflowers. I know from experience that sunflowers grow just as
quickly as wheat (if not more so). The book I was reading said that
sunflowers provide a much greater bulk than most other green manure crops
if they are "harvested" at about 1m high. They need to be harvested early
so that the stems are moist enough, thin enough and have a high enough
nitrogen content to compost/decompose fairly quickly. The bad thing, for
me, about sunflowers is that I would really need a mulching machine to take
full advantage and I don't have one yet.

I was reading just yesterday about azotobacter which, as you probably know,
are nitrogen fixing bacteria that are not symbiotic. The relevence of this
is that the azotobacter basically need just organic matter and oxygen and
then "fix" atmospheric nitrogen. Obviously the more of these little
critters the better and by using the grass clippings and chook poo I
believe I will get more organic matter into the ground more quickly than by
using a green manure. The rotary hoe used every 4 weeks or so should keep
the oxygen level pretty decent. I also expect and hope that by providing
the ground with this material (ready to decompose and partially decomposed)
I will encourage the worms more quickly. Because the chook poo is
relatively dry I don't expect any problems from it being too "hot".

If I understood correctly what I was reading (which is always a doubtful
proposition the acidity provided by the decomposing grass will speed the
process of transforming some of the non-bio-available nutrients into bio-
available. On the down side, of course, the azotobacter, worms, most fungii
and especially my vegetables don't like acid soil and so lime will be
required probably in the form of dolomite (since the magnesium is needed by
the azotobacter and the calcium will address the problem of acidity).

What amazes me is just how complex the soil environment is and the more I
read the more I am amazed. Sometimes I think it really would be *much*
easier if I just installed full irrigation and stuck with using
"artificial" fertilisers but I just can't bring myself to do it!

To finish, and complete the circle, back to green manures: if I had more
time I think your idea is better than mine. The problem is that I really
need my garden "water-wise" and planted no later than November this year.
Given even more time I would love to plant lucerne and let it grow for the
full two years before slashing it down - apparently the roots of the
lucerne will go as deep as 3 metres over a two year period - now that's
what I call adding organic matter! Since I plan to have a total of 6 beds
it is not impossible that once the whole garden is properly formed and
layed out I can actually do this by having four beds for vegetables and two
beds for green manuring. *SIGHS* - what a pity nature takes so long when I
have so little time

Thanks again for the reply and great idea

Ivan.