I have not read this book, but I have practiced organic gardening on a
suburban block with favourable results and
I believe organic gardening is viable if approached in the correct manner.

There may be some exceptions for using pesticides, especially on fruit trees
with introduced pests that have no natural predators
(I.e. That dam cherry slug that attacks my plums, pears and cherry tree)
But otherwise, with careful planning and paying attention to 'past season'
errors you should find pesticides are not really necessary.

Mr Hopkins is accurate in saying a that large amounts of organic matter are
required in the soil. i.e. compost, as Australian soil is generally of poor
quality.
We should not even double dig our soil , but build compost/raised beds where
possible.
Chemical fertilizers will not 'fix' the soil. Compost over time, with
continued use, will improve soil quality.
(if you crop rotate and minimise digging)

But building compost I NOT hard to do and organic matter is not difficult to
obtain.(everyone throws it out)
Also you won't need 'heaps' of space.

First you need to
1. Invest in a tree mulcher ($150 up) and possibly by a trailer (2nd hand
in the trading post)
2. Locate a cheap and local 'manure' pit. I live in Victoria, outer eastern
suburbs. There is a local horse track not too far from my house.
I can collect a trailer load of horse manure for $5.00.
3. Make a compost heap. I won't go into the semantics of how to make a good
compost. A good resource is
'The Rodale Book of Composting'
Deborah I Martina and Crace Gershuny,
Editors. Rodale Press, Emmaus, Pennsylvania.

You can make 'moveable' compost beds. Try and make your compost 'hot' as it
kills weed seeds.
When the compost is finished make it a raised bed and plant and start
another compost heap.

I collect organic matter for about a month, picking up neighbours trees they
have cut, my lawn clippings, weeds etc etc. (anything organic even
newspaper)
I then go and collect the manure and start up a seriously hot compost.

SO that fixes up your 'soil' issue and now all you have to do is deal with
the pests.
P.S and if you have to buy soil, while it is slightly more expensive, choose
mushroom mulch. It is worth the extra expense.
You will have near compost quality soil and it will retain moisture more
easily.

To deal with pests in an organic manner takes some planning.
And you will get pests all the same. Its the 'how much' damage they do that
is the issue VS How much does the pesticide cost/what am I eating it for etc
factor.

So now you need a little bit of knowledge on pest behaviour. Pests find
their food by either smell or sight. So you want to confuse them.
There a many books on 'companion' planting, good pests/bad pests. Repelling
pest plants etc etc that can assist with 'keeping' pests at bay.
There is so much knowledge in fact that it can get confusing,
and you may start thinking, 'Hey I will just SPRAY'.

But I have found with a limited amount of knowledge that a few tricks work
well.
Don't plant the same vegetables all in a row. Its like a sitting target. The
pests see/smell it SO EASILY. Especially the cabbages, cauliflowers, etc
(the Brassica family)
Garlic works well in most places as a repellent.
Set up 'sacrifice Brassica's. The cabbage I plant these at the edge of the
bed and they always gets decimated by pests.
However, the other Brassica's are usually free to mostly free of
snails/slugs.

Introduce a pond and frogs into your backyard to catch the bugs.

We eat anywhere between 20 to 80% of our own food during meals. Probably
averaging 60%
This is our 2nd summer crop.

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

As to the taste test between organic VS non-organic VS home grown.

I eat mostly organic vegetables (seasonal when possible except avocados my
addiction)
Sometimes, I will admit you don't notice a difference in the foods. And some
can seen even 'better' as non-organic.
Below are examples that do compare noticeably for me.

Tomatoes
non-organic = Pretty dam tasteless. No flavour and a strange flour like
texture
organic = Still pretty tasteless. Normal tomato texture.
home grown = Fantastic.

Peaches
non-organic = From what I recall seemed ok
organic = Alright, some had a slightly bitter aftertaste. Smaller in
size than non-organic
home grown = As big as the non-organic, very sweet, no bitter aftertaste

Potatoes

non-organic = Taste floury and weird
organic = Taste wonderful
home-grown = Taste as good as organic, easier to clean.

Lettuce
No difference between any, but is expensive. Home grown lose leaf's very
easy to grow.


Capsicum
non-organic = Big and watery. Not much taste but twice the size of organic
organic = Smaller in size, less watery. Slightly more flavour
home grown = Never been very successful.

In all for 'value' non-organic. But how much water has been used to justify
that SIZE is my question.
However, in saying the home grown tomato's are fantastic I did have some
exceptions.
These were the seeds that self sprouted from the organic vegetable scraps I
fed to my chickens.
They were perfect in shape, stayed on the kitchen bench 'ripening up for
days longer than other 'variety's and tasted a lot less 'fantastic' than say
the Tommy toes.
The moral of this is. Even organics grow tomatoes for 'shelf life' and
'appearance's over flavour. Definably grow your own.


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
*** note the cross post ***


Hi all

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

It seems to me that Mr Hopkins makes a very strong case in favour of
using the fertilisers that are not permissible under the "rules" of
organic gardening. Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers as
for commercial.

Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.

I wonder if anyone else has read this book and can comment on the
validity of the arguments put forward by Mr Hopkins.

Also, are there any peer-reviewed studies regarding the "taste" of
organic vs. non-organic produce (presumably these would be double blind
trials) and the bio-availability of nutrients in organic vs. non-organic
produce. Obviously, I would prefer at least abstracts to be available via
the internet.

Ivan.

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

Xref: 127.0.0.1 aus.gardens:23369 rec.gardens.edible:80747

The Watcher wrote:

....snip.....

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

Also, it comes loaded with worming gunk, so you have to let it stand for
a while to break it down, unless you want to kill your worms (soil ones
that is). {:-).

$3.00/pound ? whatever happened to kilograms that replaced the 'pound'
(weight) in circa 1970 ?
Has Brutus Costello or Honest Johnny been tampering with the systems again ?

cheers, helene

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

I wuldn't either -- I've paid the premium for truss tomatoes and, while
they
taste better than the cheap ones, they have nothing on home-grown for
flavour.
OTOH I can fully believe that a home-grown iceberg lettuce doesn't taste
much
better than a shop one. A home-grown cos lettuce outshines a shop one,
though
-- even when grown under far-from-ideal conditions, ie with me as
gardener!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the
astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider
one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc