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"Terry Collins" wrote in message
... John Savage wrote: Making a good reason for having a gravity-fed tap in the tank in addition to the popular electric pressure pump. In the event of a bushfire, loss of electricity could make the water inaccessible unless you have a tap already fitted to the tank. What would you do with it? I don't fancy playing bucket tag with an approaching fire. An electric pump is no good because more than likely you will loose electricity in a bushfire (you also loose street water pressure as well). My understanding is that a diesel would be better, based on the volatility of the fuel (but if that becomes moot, then you would not want to be around anyway). The $64,000 question to me is "how much water do you need to make have any effect?" I have 2,000 + 800 litre tanks, which according to one pump (yamaha YP205HP) would suck this all up in 5minutes at 420 litres/min. Maybe longer becasue any that falls on the roof would be recycled anyway. Given that all I would want to do (suburban street) is to wet down my roof and gutters to prevent leaf, etc material in/on them from catching a light and being blown into my roof cavity (colorbond roofing is NOT air tight), this might be okay. Just curious if anyone can provide some hard figure? How long would you start the roof pumps before the fire is expected?/visible? How long/how much water does it take to soak surrounding vegetation? etc. Terry, Indeed, it is the $64,000 question. Firstly, I wouldnt be expecting anything other than a firefighting pump to provide you with the required volume\pressure combination to be any use in wetting down a house & surrounding garden\landscaping\whatever. To that end, having your tank on a high stand wouldnt be much use either. A 3,000 gallon tank on a 35 foot stand delivers a ballpark of 14 foot-pound of pressure, wheras an electric pressure pump is usually between 25 and 40psi. For the volume you will get at that pressure, the average pressue pump you might buy for a rainwater water tank isnt going to help much when fire is threatening. If you have a look at a firefighter pump, they have two discharge points. They usually have a low pressure high volume outlet(about 1.5"), usually directly above the suction inlet, and in the same direction. Above this outlet, you will find a much smaller tree arrangement of outlets right up on top of the pump itself(usually 2 1" outlets plus a priming bung). These deliver significantly higher pressure, but somewhat lower volume as well. More than adequate for damping down the area, though. I wouldnt have any qualms about attending a fire with a petrol firefighter; they are operating on the back of most bush fire brigade rigs these days(including our landcruiser), so I know from experience they are pretty safe in that regard. My only requirement is a metal fuel tank; some of the Brigs & Stratton motors have plastic. I can envisage a burning limb or bush falling onto the pump, and the metal tank would give you a little more time to put it out.... I havent seen very many diesel firefighters around to date. All of the people in our local bush fire brigade have 5hp petrol models of assorted brands. Most small diesel engines are quite expensive, and unless you are really in the really bad fire areas, the (marginal) extra safety of the diesel doesnt seem to justify the cost. A 6hp Honda with an onga firefighting pump attached cost me $595 3 years ago. Fire hose, ball valves, an adjustible nozzle and 1.5" suction line with camlock connectors cost me probably another $200 all up. As far as outlets on the tank are concerned, a, 1.5" ball valve outlet & camlock nipple in addition to whatever outlet feeds to the house supply gives you quick access to the water, and you can use the firefighter to fill mobile tanks if necessarry. At the engine lower revs you need for the firefighting outlets, you will get 5 or more hours out of a tank of fuel. A 3000 gallon tank would take about an hour or more to empty if you were running on the the firefighter outlet the whole time(NOT the big high volume\low pressure outlet). In this time, you would make a LOT of the surroundings bloody wet! If you add some of the foaming\wetting agent they use, you will get a huge amount of things wet. I can tell you that if I was living in a high fire risk suburban area with lots of bushland, I would think a couple of big poly tanks, a firefighter, and some long hose would be my idea of cheap insurance! If you have a pool, the firefighter would be able to suck from that with the addition of a foot-valve. Cheers, Rod.......Out Back |
In article , ellipsis
wrote: In article , Chookie wrote: Near us, we have a business that runs a fountain constantly. I think that's ridiculous. I don¹t disagree with your argument, but are you sure they are not recirculating the same water? I have a fountain of sorts in my backyard, but it is just the same water going around and around. I do have to top it up every five or six weeks, but there are quite a few birds that come in to drink and bathe each day and I think they are more responsible for the drop in water level than evaporation. They may well be recirculating, but even so, I think it's silly to be running the thing at midnight on a Saturday. A few weeks ago someone hit it with some detergent. The foam was about 2m high and had crept out onto the road! -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet |
In article , John
Savage wrote: There are some like a corner piece of Leggo, like two tall thin rectangular blocks joined together at right angles to form a free-standing block (yes, free standing) that you can position in a corner of your yard or somewhere that you want to make a sheltered nook to place a seat, etc. It acts like a wall as well as functioning as a water reservoir. I expect you could trail climbers over it. .--------------------. | | '---------------. | plan view | | | | | | | | | | '----' I think this was the one on ŒThe Inventors¹ a couple of months ago. If so, I am pretty sure they are now available from Bunnings. .... |
In article , John
Savage wrote: None of these is going to droughtproof a town house, but these are a step in the right direction. Saving water in times of drought is only half the reason for encouraging rainwater tanks in city areas; saving street flooding during everyday thunderstorms is the other half. The Although by doing so I risk instigating the ŒSpanish Inquisiton¹ sketch, there is also a third reason--that rainwater tastes a hell of a lot better than most scheme water. .... --- ³Everyone needs a rainwater tank! The chief reason is ...² |
Terry Collins writes:
John Savage wrote: Making a good reason for having a gravity-fed tap in the tank in addition to the popular electric pressure pump. In the event of a bushfire, loss of electricity could make the water inaccessible unless you have a tap already fitted to the tank. What would you do with it? Exactly what fire authorities currently recommend. But in the worst imaginable situation, you'd need to soak your clothing. I don't fancy playing bucket tag with an approaching fire. If you were to play silly buggers you'd be asking to be roasted. The $64,000 question to me is "how much water do you need to make have any effect?" Half a cupful should be plenty, provided you get to that glowing cinder before it ignites any timber of your house. How long/how much water does it take to soak surrounding vegetation? None, because being the sensible homeowner, you have already cleared all flammable surrounding vegetation that could pose a danger. There is nothing left to to be "soaked". Yes, even your precious mulch has all been raked off and transported well away. -- John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup) |
Chookie writes:
Near us, we have a business that runs a fountain constantly. I think that's ridiculous. They may well be recirculating, but even so, I think it's silly to be running the thing at midnight on a Saturday. Just to play devil's advocate, but perhaps they use the sound of the running water to mask pub neighbourhood yahooing, or high-revving traffic hooligans, or other noise, while residents are trying to sleep. Does the business have a caretaker, or rent overnight accommodation, or something? Operating a fountain is preferable in the long run to taking a handful of prescription sleeping tablets. -- John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup) |
Christopher Smith writes:
Although by doing so I risk instigating the ŒSpanish Inquisiton¹ sketch, there is also a third reason--that rainwater tastes a hell of a lot better than most scheme water. I won't disagree with you as far as taste goes. But the Sydney Water Board does not recommend that city residents drink the rainwater they collect. It recommends the water be used for the laundry, toilet, and/or garden. I think pollution would be the concern. Many homes would be near busy streets, some under plane flightpaths (kero fumes, and reports of black spots on clothing set to dry outside), some downwind of industrial fume stacks, etc. Discarding the first few minutes of water from a dirty roof might not be sufficient precaution. In my opinion, one additional reason would be that the city would be less vulnerable to threats by any group to disrupt the city water system in some way. As it stands at present, few residents would have even a day's reserve of drinking water on hand in their home. -- John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup) |
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:50:59 GMT, John Savage
wrote: I won't disagree with you as far as taste goes. But the Sydney Water Board does not recommend that city residents drink the rainwater they collect. It recommends the water be used for the laundry, toilet, and/or Even outside the city there are dangers. A friend's water tank was infested with thread worm, they presume from bird shit, Regards Bruce |
In article ,
John Savage wrote: Christopher Smith writes: Although by doing so I risk instigating the ŒSpanish Inquisiton¹ sketch, there is also a third reason--that rainwater tastes a hell of a lot better than most scheme water. I won't disagree with you as far as taste goes. But the Sydney Water Board does not recommend that city residents drink the rainwater they collect. It recommends the water be used for the laundry, toilet, and/or garden. I think pollution would be the concern. Interestingly, Michael Mobbs (the sustainable house guy) lives in inner-city Sydney and apparently has never had a problem with pollution in the rainwater. They have thier water tested frequently. -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet |
BCL writes:
Even outside the city there are dangers. A friend's water tank was infested with thread worm, they presume from bird shit, Umm, lovely. :-( I once climbed up to clean out the gutters from a house that had a sparrow problem. Not only had the one inch of rotting straw and manure caused the gutter to rust through, but I found it to be crawling with maggots! (Before this, I thought their tank water tasted real good.) Another time, on my uncle's farm the water began to smell worse and worse. They thought that something must have fallen down the well over at the windmill. But one day as I was riding past the tank on the hillside I edged the horse over to its side and looked in -- there was a dead crow floating on the surface! So I got a stick and attempted to fish it out but it fell to pieces and sank to the bottom. After that we only used that tank's water for bathing! Such is life on the land.... -- John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup) |
len gardener writes:
our house is on a slab so the loo is in its own raise room so to speak, you need a minmum of app 1 meter clearance between top of bins and the bottom of the joist i think it is. there are other systems Thanks for the notes on your waterless loo, Len. I'm wondering how much it differs from that of the conventional flushing one, as far as the user is concerned? The more it differs, the more reluctant I think people would be to install one. Do you have a bucket of something alongside the loo, for each user to dump a handful of (sawdust?) into the loo? When Great-Aunt Bess, complete with hat pin and white gloves, forsakes her Toorak mansion for a few days' visit to the countryside what sight is going to assail her genteel vision (expecting a pool of comforting blue lavender-scented water) when she cautiously lifts the lid of Len's wierd commode thing?? Your mention of bins suggests that a couple of times each year a heavy bin of slop has to be carefully hauled out by a couple of strong men and stored somewhere out of the way for a number of months? Is the compost a bit on the bugle when you spread it around the yard, i.e., the neighbours call off their planned weekend birthday party. :-) -- John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup) |
John Savage wrote:
len gardener writes: Your mention of bins suggests that a couple of times each year a heavy bin of slop has to be carefully hauled out by a couple of strong men and stored somewhere out of the way for a number of months? Is the compost a bit on the bugle when you spread it around the yard, i.e., the neighbours call off their planned weekend birthday party. :-) When I looked into this, I was under the impression that it created a kind of humus. Not smelly. I'm not sure how it's achieved though, except perhaps no water, other than urine which would get soaked up by newspaper or some other type of papery (toilet paper, even) material. ...aprill |
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:14:15 GMT, John Savage
wrote: snipped Thanks for the notes on your waterless loo, Len. I'm wondering how much it differs from that of the conventional flushing one, as far as the user is concerned? The more it differs, the more reluctant I think people would be to install one. my pleasure john, well at first site the pedestal looks the same as any water hungry loo, even the lid looks the same though ours is a timber more up class lid than the common plastic types around. the big difference is between the ears of those people that have had decades of social engineering/conditioning as they changed from the thunder boxes of the 40's & 50's even into the 60's, to the magic of push button water fall. Do you have a bucket of something alongside the loo, for each user to dump a handful of (sawdust?) into the loo? we have a bucket of mushroom compost not needed at each sitting though about once or twice a week is more than enough as we run a dry system ie.,. we use a night wee bucket so to speak. When Great-Aunt Bess, complete with hat pin and white gloves, forsakes her Toorak mansion for a few days' visit to the countryside what sight is going to assail her genteel vision (expecting a pool of comforting blue lavender-scented water) when she cautiously lifts the lid of Len's wierd commode thing?? well unless she has owl vision or has hung one on the night before and is prone to praying to the compost god below then she may see a glimpse just a glimpse of white toilet paper in the dark depths below, oh! nope not a drop blue lavender water in sight. Your mention of bins suggests that a couple of times each year a heavy bin of slop has to be carefully hauled out by a couple of strong men and stored somewhere out of the way for a number of months? um a little on the weighty side yes mmm slop well ours is dry, and before i put the out of use lid on the full bin a cover it with mushy compost, but no smell unless you stir it up so to speak, we have the basement area of our loo set up so we slide one bin aside then put the empty in service bin in place ready to be filled, usually composting takes around 6 to 7 months usually the same amount of time it takes to fill a bin. doesn't ahve to be stored out of the way it's only a black bin ressembling a 44 gallon drum and no flies hanging around it. Is the compost a bit on the bugle when you spread it around the yard, i.e., the neighbours call off their planned weekend birthday party. :-) nope once fully composted it looks like humas and has no odour so the neighbours can still have their backyard barbie. we usually create a trench down the middle of a garden and spread it in there, you only a good wheelbarrow load full. ilike to get the worms into it so try to do that as we fill too, they do wonders. there is an enzyme you can buy and spray in after each use, that helps the composting but we get good sun on our drum so that keeps the heat up. anyhowhavagudweegend len -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
In article ,
John Savage wrote: I once climbed up to clean out the gutters from a house that had a sparrow problem. Not only had the one inch of rotting straw and manure caused the gutter to rust through, but I found it to be crawling with maggots! (Before this, I thought their tank water tasted real good.) Ah, that flavoursome maggot wee!! giggling, thinking of what your expression must have been when you spotted 'em -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet |
len gardener writes:
well at first site the pedestal looks the same as any water hungry loo, even the lid looks the same though ours is a timber more up class lid than the common plastic types around. the big difference is between the ears of those people that have had decades of social engineering/conditioning as they changed from the thunder boxes of the 40's & 50's even into the 60's, to the magic of push button water fall. Perhaps install a cistern with a button anyway, but have it play a tape recording of a healthy waterfall's "Wooooshhh" to reassure any uncertain visitors who have come under the evil social engineers' spell!! Do you have a bucket of something alongside the loo, for each user to dump a handful of (sawdust?) into the loo? we have a bucket of mushroom compost not needed at each sitting though about once or twice a week is more than enough as we run a dry system Mushroom compost would be an almost sterile medium. Do you add it for its absorbancy or to introduce a few microorganisms? An equal weight of garden soil would have a lot more microbes. ie.,. we use a night wee bucket so to speak. Ah! I'd not picked up on the implication when you'd earlier said you run it as a dry system. That explains a lot ... not to mention your healthy lemon trees! There are difficulties there for urban dwellers, though I guess if things were planned right one could install a urinal or some sort of water-conservative loo for that function. Otherwise, your plans are going to be well and truly upset should you ever decide to have 20 relatives around for Christmas Day--you might need to be 'changing bins' halfway through the afternoon. When Great-Aunt Bess, complete with hat pin and white gloves, forsakes her Toorak mansion for a few days' visit to the countryside what sight is going to assail her genteel vision (expecting a pool of comforting blue lavender-scented water) when she cautiously lifts the lid of Len's wierd commode thing?? well unless she has owl vision or has hung one on the night before and is prone to praying to the compost god below then she may see a glimpse just a glimpse of white toilet paper in the dark depths below, oh! nope not a drop blue lavender water in sight. So, no handy S-bend to trap a mobile phone or wedding ring when someone drops it in? Is 'rolling up your sleeve' going to allow someone desperate enough to retrieve their dropped phone?? nope once fully composted it looks like humas and has no odour so the neighbours can still have their backyard barbie. we usually create a trench down the middle of a garden and spread it in there, you only a good wheelbarrow load full. ilike to get the worms into it so try to do that as we fill too, they do wonders. You drop a few worms down the loo from time to time? And they survive, even grow and multiply? Interesting. Handy if you're a keen fisherman!! I suppose you could even throw in a paper bag full of the day's kitchen peelings and food scraps? there is an enzyme you can buy and spray in after each use, that helps the composting but we get good sun on our drum so that keeps the heat up. Thanks for all that info, Len. I hope others have learnt from it, too. It seems so absurd to me, when visiting rural friends, to be skimping and saving every drop of water when bathing, doing laundry, brushing teeth, etc., plus rationing laundry water all around the garden, only to then have everyone throwing water by the bucketful down the loo! Since so many homes have two loos these days, perhaps an upstairs water-waster and a downstairs water-saver might be a reasonable compromise. The septic could serve as a reserve (for when the nature- loo is awaiting someone to change bins) and as a convenience for guests. Did you see the septic system on ABC's New Inventors? It comprises 3 plastic bins filled by a thick liner. It all folds up to such a small package that it is actually mailed out to purchasers! It's on the market and fully does away with the big round concrete septic tank. Again, thanks. -- John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup) |
snipped
visitors who have come under the evil social engineers' spell!! yes john i had thought of that just to comfort those wastefull city folk hell bent on hearing drinking water go to waster lol. snipped soil would have a lot more microbes. mushroom compost is a good medium for worms we could use wood shavings. sawdust can set hard and earth would make for more weight. but yes earth would have lots of beneficial stuff in it. snipped halfway through the afternoon. take 'em a bit longer than that to fill one but generally the blokes get told hey you got the equipment go water a gum tree or something ladies are allowed to use the loo as they normally would push button and blue lavender water excepted of course. snipped oh! nope not a drop blue lavender water in sight. snipped enough to retrieve their dropped phone?? nup no S bends good hey goes straight down express lift stopping at no floors on the way, if they want it back they have to go fetch huh anyway's most mobile phones don't decompose although i have read of one that returns to dirt and the cover grows into a sunflower or is this april and i don't know it??? lol snipped I suppose you could even throw in a paper bag full of the day's kitchen peelings and food scraps? yep would be a good way of getting supplies of ready worms for the ardent fishermen around, a good selling point to get his my poo dun smell wife to agree to getting a unit hey?? lol snipped market and fully does away with the big round concrete septic tank. Again, thanks. exactly john people in rural parctise frugal and our city cousins waste away hey water's comes cheap doesn't it why conserve it when everytime they push the button or turn on the hose for the car or lawn there it is more regular than some people are hey? shite might hit the fan when nothing emits from the geisers though hey?? lol yep hopefully it may get the odd mind working whether in toorak or grebe hey chuckle, the social engineering has been a total success hey? len -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
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