At 02:47 AM 5/2/03 -0700, sam crowell wrote:
BIG SNIP

For a number of years, I was real big on cell flats, but more and more I am
going back to my old method of using flats. I haven't done any actual
quantitative studies, but it seems like more seedlings survive in the
flats, and the quality of the trees is better. I still use cells for
special cases like acorns where I prune off the seedling radicle to remove
the tap root and improve the root system. This results in a lot of seeds
dying, but the survivors are much higher quality. After a couple months, I
take the survivors out of the cells, examine the roots, prune again if
necessary and repot into 2 3/4 inch pots. They take off really fast with
this process.

Brent, this sounds REALLY interesting to me. Could you detail this out? I
have a few acorns that I would be willing to practice on, but I need to have
more detail as to what to do. I was going to just ask this in a private
note, but decided to follow the maxim that if one is willing ask the
question, there are problem more who would also be interested.

Sam

The problem with container oaks is that they want to grow that five foot
tap root in the container. This very often results in a very long spiral or
congested mass right under the root crown. Smaller roots usually do not
grow out of this mess. Sometimes it is interesting, but most of the time it
is unsightly and very difficult to remove or correct. There are other
species that do this. I have the same problem with cedars, Cedrus sp.

Tap roots are a juvenile structure. If you remove them or if it is damaged,
it doesn't reform (after the plant is over about a year old). This got me
to thinking I could interrupt this growth right at the seedling stage. The
tap root begins with a very elongated radicle (the white rootlike structure
that first emerges from the acorn and other seeds). This was always a
problem anyhow because it made the acorns difficult to plant, requiring a
deep dibble hole in coarse soil mix (try it sometime).

So, I began removing most the radicle after it was an inch or two long,
planted them, and then inspected them over a series of weeks and months. I
just did most of them for this year about three weeks ago. Things are slow
this year because of the incessant spring rain and cloudy, cool weather, so
changes are just becoming evident. I leave about 1/2 inch of radicle. I
try to make a clean cut with sharp shears. The end of the radicle calluses
a bit and then two or more roots form at the cut. Sometimes I get a nice
little radial pattern of roots, but more often I get two or three large
roots that look just like the original radicle.

I plant them in cells to make transplanting easy. The new roots and
radicles can become terribly tangled in a flat, and even winter
transplanting is difficult and recovery slow. It also give me a second
opportunity to inspect the roots and give them another cut to make them
ramify before going into their 2 3/4 inch pots. This also gives you an
opportunity to arrange the roots in the pot. Oaks seedlings tend to form
just a few leaves and spend all their money growing roots, so initial root
pruning like this, even in summer, is practical with a bit of protective
aftercare.

This process completely cures that woody mass directly under the trunk and
gives you an excellent start on a good nebari.

This process is not recommended for Reiner, who doesn't believe you can
grow bonsai from seedlings.

Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

whats the plan for a well established oak in a 15 gal container that was
trunk chopped in january and is comming out strong? tell me there is
hope. Also thanks for the info, i have a few oaks in flats that need
the snip.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 12:54 AM 5/3/03 -0400, lou E wrote:
whats the plan for a well established oak in a 15 gal container that was
trunk chopped in january and is comming out strong? tell me there is
hope. Also thanks for the info, i have a few oaks in flats that need
the snip.

Lou

The plan should be to keep it alive. It is amazing how many people put
styling and action ahead of survival when it is utterly pointless if the
plant dies.

Keep it in morning sun and afternoon shade for now, since I believe you are
in S. CA where it is probably already hot and the sunlight intense. I
wouldn't give it full sun this season. New growth resulting dormant buds is
often very soft and will fry during the first intense heat wave.

Otherwise just let it grow to recover. Root prune and repot next winter. If
it has excessive shoot growth by then you can prune some wanted growth, but
be sure to leave plenty of terminal buds. These are needed for a quick root
recovery.



Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

brent you wrote

The problem with container oaks is that they want to grow that five foot
tap root in the container. This very often results in a very long spiral or
congested mass right under the root crown. Smaller roots usually do not
grow out of this mess. Sometimes it is interesting, but most of the time it
is unsightly and very difficult to remove or correct.

my question is what is the strategy (next year) to deal with long spiral
tap root that im sure is int he 15 gal pot.?

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 12:36 AM 5/12/03 -0400, lou E wrote:
brent you wrote

The problem with container oaks is that they want to grow that five foot
tap root in the container. This very often results in a very long spiral or
congested mass right under the root crown. Smaller roots usually do not
grow out of this mess. Sometimes it is interesting, but most of the time it
is unsightly and very difficult to remove or correct.

my question is what is the strategy (next year) to deal with long spiral
tap root that im sure is int he 15 gal pot.?

Lou

Any corrective strategy must start with the corrolary that the plant must
first be healthy. If you haven't yet inspected the root system in a 15 gal
pot, my guess is that this is a terribly root bound plant or that it is in
a really crappy soil and in the stages of root decline and failure. I think
you should begin with a thorough repotting this winter, removing all the
soil with a strong blast of water from a hose. Investigate the situation.

If it rootbound, but essentially healthy, you can begin corrective work.
Start by removing most, if not all, the roots in the interior section under
the root crown. Preserve the higher, outer roots that will eventually
become the primary roots. If you can untangle these roots fine, but it is
best to do the lower removal first, repot, let the plant regain its
strength for two years then move to the second stage at the next
repotting. At this point, you can do the opposite, preserve the lower roots
except for untangling them and shortening them to keep them from
spiralling. Now, you can begin the actual task of correcting the surface
rooting. Straighten them as best you can. Develop a plan for correcting the
surface roots.

You can remove one major root at each repotting. I prefer to take the worst
offenders out first. If it is to die, let it do it sooner rather than
later. Often you can simply shorten a large root that is unbranched close
to the trun and force it to ramify. This is preferable to starting over
(assuming it isn't overly large to begin with). Make sure these cut roots
are covered with enough soil so they won't dry out between waterings.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 10:44 AM 5/12/03 +0200, Theo wrote:
Hi Brent I read that you deal with oaks so please what do you think ?
I have 4 trees of cork oaks in the park and last september I could get
about 10 whole acorns before squirrels come but still green, ( mostly
they chop and throw them away .. so useless .. .. )
I put them inside sand for the winter
In spring I dug them out most of them were brown dead with molds
anly 3 were still white and germinating but the tap root
was starting to get black so I moved them in a deep container
with mould made with oak leaf and watered..
one month later I sow the 3 were opening end getting green and this
morning a small sprout was coming out from one of them..I am planning
to take some soil from the older oaks ..but I think it might bring
problems also
so I added some mychorize from my penthaphilla and covered with the
upper part of a plastic bottle to avoid some malicious bird .. one
never knows.....

I read Oaks are plenty of pests molds , mildew and other stuff
what could I do to prevent this baby and help him survive healthy the
good season's pests and get strenght ?
Thanks for feed back


Theo

Cork oaks, Quercus suber, are very tough trees and have actually
naturalized in parts of N. CA. I would resist putting any native soil in
with your mix. Although I doubt you have any fungal diseases that would
affect them, there is little point in taking that risk. It has not been my
experience that these oaks need any sort of mychorrizal innoculations to
thrive. They grow like weeks for me. In the future, keep the seeds in a
plastic bag in the refrigerator over the winter (after soaking). They will
stay cleaner and you should have almost no losses.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

HI Brent
Thanks for the information the problem to get acorns is to get faster than
squirrels or put a nest around a branch with acorns to protect them
Actually it is growing an a small deep pot and yesterday I noticed theh tap
root was trying to get out of the drainage hole so I curved it back inside .. if
it survives within 2 years will repot
I will not put soil from the parents trees
friendly
Theo

Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:

At 10:44 AM 5/12/03 +0200, Theo wrote:
Hi Brent I read that you deal with oaks so please what do you think ?
I have 4 trees of cork oaks in the park and last september I could get
about 10 whole acorns before squirrels come but still green, ( mostly
they chop and throw them away .. so useless .. .. )
I put them inside sand for the winter
In spring I dug them out most of them were brown dead with molds
anly 3 were still white and germinating but the tap root
was starting to get black so I moved them in a deep container
with mould made with oak leaf and watered..
one month later I sow the 3 were opening end getting green and this
morning a small sprout was coming out from one of them..I am planning
to take some soil from the older oaks ..but I think it might bring
problems also
so I added some mychorize from my penthaphilla and covered with the
upper part of a plastic bottle to avoid some malicious bird .. one
never knows.....

I read Oaks are plenty of pests molds , mildew and other stuff
what could I do to prevent this baby and help him survive healthy the
good season's pests and get strenght ?
Thanks for feed back

Theo

Cork oaks, Quercus suber, are very tough trees and have actually
naturalized in parts of N. CA. I would resist putting any native soil in
with your mix. Although I doubt you have any fungal diseases that would
affect them, there is little point in taking that risk. It has not been my
experience that these oaks need any sort of mychorrizal innoculations to
thrive. They grow like weeks for me. In the future, keep the seeds in a
plastic bag in the refrigerator over the winter (after soaking). They will
stay cleaner and you should have almost no losses.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
How can You put trust in me if I do not trust in Me?
Theo
http://www.byjoke.com/