In a message dated 2/26/2003 6:12:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

I have an idea on how IBC can improve the skills of
bonsai beginners. I'm suggesting that people like Jim
or Brent should record sessions of when they are doing
anything with bonsai. We can then upload the video on
to the IBC site and there members can download it. The
sessions could be root pruning, propagation, or
anything that beginners need to know. We can ask for
donation from members to buy the camera if we need
one.

Luc:

This is not a bad idea, but the ONLY way to master technique is to jump in and do it.

Buy materials, tools, wire, and submerse yourself in the art. Devote several weekends to doing nothing but working with materials, challenging yourself to create better and better art. The materials need not be of the highest caliber, and I would suggest
purchasing inexpensive pieces ($10-$25) for the intensive workshops.

My bonsai weekend is an immersion into the art. I accept only one student for what begins on a Friday and ends on a Sunday at noon. We work on as many trees as possible, and the key words are bonsai art.

Videos and books are wonderful vehicles for study, but the true learning comes from diving into the art. Be fearless, knowing that great art is born out of creative explosion. The trick is to learn how to light this fuse!

Cordially,

Michael Persiano

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Michael:

Are you saying that this immersion would be to the extent that, say, if I
were to wire a tree and came up with a crossed wire, I would then have to
keep wiring it until I got it right?

Isn't this the way the Japanese masters would teach?

Wouldn't that be intimidating for a newbie?

My suspicion is that a carefully planned series of still photos with
detailed commentary would be most valuable for these beginners.

For example, I saw Art Skolnick teach wiring by using a tree he had made up
of dowels and by wiring peoples fingers (to demonstrate the effect of the
direction of the wiring on branch rotation). This way a most impressive
demonstration for its clarity and would not have been enhanced by video
rather than still photos.

Regards,

Bart
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Persiano"

I have an idea on how IBC can improve the skills of
bonsai beginners. I'm suggesting that people like Jim
or Brent should record sessions of when they are doing
anything with bonsai. We can then upload the video on
to the IBC site and there members can download it. The
sessions could be root pruning, propagation, or
anything that beginners need to know. We can ask for
donation from members to buy the camera if we need
one.

Luc:

This is not a bad idea, but the ONLY way to master technique is to jump in
and do it.

Buy materials, tools, wire, and submerse yourself in the art. Devote
several weekends to doing nothing but working with materials, challenging
yourself to create better and better art. The materials need not be of the
highest caliber, and I would suggest purchasing inexpensive pieces ($10-$25)
for the intensive workshops.

My bonsai weekend is an immersion into the art. I accept only one student
for what begins on a Friday and ends on a Sunday at noon. We work on as
many trees as possible, and the key words are bonsai art.

Videos and books are wonderful vehicles for study, but the true learning
comes from diving into the art. Be fearless, knowing that great art is born
out of creative explosion. The trick is to learn how to light this fuse!

Cordially,

Michael Persiano

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Thomas"
Michael:
Are you saying that this immersion would be to the extent that, say, if I
were to wire a tree and came up with a crossed wire, I would then have to
keep wiring it until I got it right?
Isn't this the way the Japanese masters would teach?
Wouldn't that be intimidating for a newbie?
snip
Regards,
Bart
---------------

What? Is it intimidating for a anyone to practice good technique and
receive correction from a teacher? This has nothing to do with newbies or
experts. The difference between DOING technique rather than watching
technique is that, with the former, one actually learns to do, and with the
latter, one may or may not learn anything (but, gee, it sure is easier and
not intimidating). Understanding something intellectually (which is all
anyone can get from watching) is of little nor no value when you've not put
in the physical work - regularly, properly, on an continual basis.

We can argue all day long about what is "proper" and what is good for
newbies and what is good for experienced bonsai artists, but the only
relevant issue is "what is effective." If it is intimidating to an
individual to have to do actual work to improve skill, then that's their
problem. The fact is what is intimidating to some is usually what is best.
It's intimidating because there is some standard, some level of expectation
from a teacher - which is nothing but good. Settling for less than best
simply because it is less arduous or less intimidating is ridiculous.

You get out of something what you put into it. Tell me, what do you put
into watching a video or watching someone else wire? Sure, if watching is
followed up by lots of actual work, there is value in watching. If not,
then watching is absolutely worthless. But it sure is less intimidating.
;-p

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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In a message dated 2/27/2003 9:26:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

Michael:

Are you saying that this immersion would be to the extent that, say, if I
were to wire a tree and came up with a crossed wire, I would then have to
keep wiring it until I got it right?

Isn't this the way the Japanese masters would teach?

Bart:

In this instance, the student will learn the wrong and right way. Yes, keep wiring until you get it right. Did I say work in the dark? No. );-)

Wouldn't that be intimidating for a newbie?

The art of bonsai is intimidating at its highest level, in my opinion. Why? Most artists push themselves to continually refine their work. I am never satisfied with what I do.

My suspicion is that a carefully planned series of still photos with
detailed commentary would be most valuable for these beginners.

Yes, but it does not replace immersion in the art. One learns by doing it.

For example, I saw Art Skolnick teach wiring by using a tree he had made up
of dowels and by wiring peoples fingers (to demonstrate the effect of the
direction of the wiring on branch rotation). This way a most impressive
demonstration for its clarity and would not have been
enhanced by video
rather than still photos.s

I do not understand what you are saying here. Please clarify.

Again, books and videos have their place: the act of doing or not doing is a basic Zen principle and, in my opinion, a key pivotal point for those venturing into the depths of this art.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob/index.html

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Some of you may have forgotten what it's like to be new in this hobby. Let
me try to refresh your memory.

When you first start out you don't have any real bonsai. By real I mean
trees trained over the years to be in a small pot. Most likely you have the
dreaded mallsai. So you read everything you can get your hands on, watch
videos, peruse the internet, join IBC and even join a local bonsai club.
You've got lots of energy and ideas and can't wait to get started. But you
can't. Why? Because it's still winter. So you wait.

Spring rolls around and you buy some promising nursery stock. Maybe you go
out collecting, looking for that special tree. If you find one you tag it
because, according to the books, it takes three years to properly dig a tree
up. So you move on to the nursery stock.

Some of your nursery stock needs to develop roots so you plant them in
oversized training boxes and wait a few years. Some of your stock needs to
develop trunks so you plant them in oversized training boxes and wait a few
years. Some have great trunks but the branches are too high so you plant
them in oversized training boxes, trunk chop and wait a few years.

If you're lucky you have some stock that has great roots, trunk and branch
placement so you plant them in training boxes, prune some branches, wire
some other branches or the trunk and wait a few years.

All of the above takes several weekends in the spring. Summer roles around
and you've got all these training boxes with trees at various stages of
development. You water them, talk to them and are generally very proud of
"pre-bonsai" (although your wife and kids think you're nuts). Friends come
by and you show off your stock. They don't understand why your bonsai don't
look like the ones in the pictures. You just shrug it off because they just
don't understand the "art" of bonsai.

Anyway, you sit in your yard and watch your trees grow, which is much more
exciting than it was watching your grass grow.

Fall rolls around and you start getting your trees ready for winter rest.
You bring some in the house, put some in cold frames, bury some in the
ground and leave them all to sleep. Now what? You start reading everything
you can get your hands on, watch videos, peruse the internet, read IBC and
even visit your local bonsai club.


After 2-3 years of this you can start looking at real bonsai pots. Maybe in
5-10 years you may have something worth showing your friends. If you're
still around in 25 years you may actually be able to take one of your trees
to a show. Yippee!!!

Any of this sound familiar?

John

From: Michael Persiano

This is not a bad idea, but the ONLY way to master
technique is to jump in and do it. Buy materials,
tools, wire, and submerse yourself in the art.

__________________________________________________ _______________
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In a message dated 2/27/2003 10:53:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

After 2-3 years of this you can start looking at real bonsai pots. Maybe in
5-10 years you may have something worth showing your friends. If you're
still around in 25 years you may actually be able to take
one of your trees
to a show. Yippee!!!

Any of this sound familiar?

John:

A 10-year old tree can look magnificent. Certainly, it will look even nicer in 25, 50, and 75 years.

We all go through it--if we're serious. );-)

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob/index.html

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Subject: [IBC] Mastering Technique (Was [IBC] proposal)


Some of you may have forgotten what it's like to be new in this hobby.
Let
me try to refresh your memory.
Big Snip
-------------------------

It was a good piece of writing, John, and could be the truth of bonsai
beginners, but since there are personalities of more than one kind, I
would give an alternative - a combination that might encourage the
confident types who can't sit and wait.

I have seen yamadori, collected trees, that could be potted ( in a
somewhat larger mica pot -not the final pot, but certainly suggestive of
bonsa- and styled to be convincing bonsai all within a day - bunjin size or
a literati. In fact, we see that in demonstrations. The same can happen
with nursery stock.

The loss may be somewhat more and the ideal of bonsai being a patient
and very slow art form is not upheld by these acts, but if the beginner is
able and satisfied that it gives something to look at - and pleasure to do
as well as hands- on better understanding of the process of caring for
plants. There is something visual to critique daily - and one sees their
visual judgments grow and wain daily while these attempts are compared with
what there is in books and shows. There is a heavier load of learning than
sitting, watching them grow. A young vine maple taken from the mass in a
forest was one of my first shrugs at the idea of sitting/waiting and that
experience settled me into bonsai more than anything - and since it lived
(not hard for them to do) the cost-heavier nursery plant was next. I have
yet to sit and wait. If they are growing I am not waiting - as a boring
conscious thing - because the challenges are so rapid, and a more critical
care may be needed. I hold that there are certain tests to be met and this
is a way.
Sure there are also those sitting trees in cedar tubs doing the slower
"ideal" way, but they will be better in the future following these other
experiences.

Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Persiano"
To:

For example, I saw Art Skolnick teach wiring by using a tree he had
made up
of dowels and by wiring peoples fingers (to demonstrate the effect of
the
direction of the wiring on branch rotation). This way a most impressive
demonstration for its clarity and would not have been
enhanced by video
rather than still photos.s

I do not understand what you are saying here. Please clarify.

Okay, I'll give it a try....

The finger technique involves winding the wire around a student's finger
(I'm trying to avoid getting confusing with clockwise, etc.). Now if the
student tries to rotate the finger in the smae direction the wire was wound,
he/she will find that the wire gets tighter, limiting the amount of finger
or branch rotation (assuming that the end from which we are winding is
anchored); if we rotate the finger (or branch) the other way, the wire loses
its grip. By feeling this on their own finger, the student is more likely to
remember.

This is third or fourth nature to someone such as yourself, to the extent
that many teachers never think to point this out in classes, but it is THE
difference in the wiring doing its job and not.

As for the dowel tree, think of wiring a hatrack. It's just a simplified
tree for illustrations sake.

I couldn't agree more with you and Andy about the value of doing. Once I
understood this, I understood the value of the statement that "Wire is
cheap." Instead of being miserly with that tiny coil that we paid $5 for, we
should practice wiring until we get it right.

One of the reasons I chose wiring to illustrate a case in which a series of
still photos could be as effective a teacher as a video is because this begs
the students to try it themselves.

I think we're in the same church on this matter

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John,
Your summary of the beginner in bonsai is right on.
We tend to forget the long road out of beginner-hood.
Thanks.
Jerry Meislik
Whitefish Montana USA
Zone 3-4
http://www.bonsaihunk.8m.com/ Some of you may have forgotten what it's like
to be new in this hobby. Let
me try to refresh your memory.

When you first start out you don't have any real bonsai. By real I mean
trees trained over the years to be in a small pot. Most likely you have the
dreaded mallsai. So you read everything you can get your hands on, watch
videos, peruse the internet, join IBC and even join a local bonsai club.
You've got lots of energy and ideas and can't wait to get started. But you
can't. Why? Because it's still winter. So you wait.

Spring rolls around and you buy some promising nursery stock. Maybe you go
out collecting, looking for that special tree. If you find one you tag it
because, according to the books, it takes three years to properly dig a tree
up. So you move on to the nursery stock.

Some of your nursery stock needs to develop roots so you plant them in
oversized training boxes and wait a few years. Some of your stock needs to
develop trunks so you plant them in oversized training boxes and wait a few
years. Some have great trunks but the branches are too high so you plant
them in oversized training boxes, trunk chop and wait a few years.

If you're lucky you have some stock that has great roots, trunk and branch
placement so you plant them in training boxes, prune some branches, wire
some other branches or the trunk and wait a few years.

All of the above takes several weekends in the spring. Summer roles around
and you've got all these training boxes with trees at various stages of
development. You water them, talk to them and are generally very proud of
"pre-bonsai" (although your wife and kids think you're nuts). Friends come
by and you show off your stock. They don't understand why your bonsai don't
look like the ones in the pictures. You just shrug it off because they just
don't understand the "art" of bonsai.

Anyway, you sit in your yard and watch your trees grow, which is much more
exciting than it was watching your grass grow.

Fall rolls around and you start getting your trees ready for winter rest.
You bring some in the house, put some in cold frames, bury some in the
ground and leave them all to sleep. Now what? You start reading everything
you can get your hands on, watch videos, peruse the internet, read IBC and
even visit your local bonsai club.


After 2-3 years of this you can start looking at real bonsai pots. Maybe in
5-10 years you may have something worth showing your friends. If you're
still around in 25 years you may actually be able to take one of your trees
to a show. Yippee!!!

Any of this sound familiar?

John

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Well said, John.

There are two solutions to this problem that come to mind.

Buy inexpensive garden center stock (junipers, etc) to beat up on while you
practice and learn what will kill the species you really want to develop.

Learn by using tropicals. The best thing I did in my earlier years was to
get a couple of Green Island Ficus. These respond so fast to pruning that
they are magnificent teachers, and you will get plenty of practice rewiring
them as they grow. They also do very well in low light conditions.

Regards.

Bart
----- Original Message -----
From: "John NJ"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:53 AM
Subject: [IBC] Mastering Technique (Was [IBC] proposal)


Some of you may have forgotten what it's like to be new in this hobby.
Let
me try to refresh your memory.

When you first start out you don't have any real bonsai. By real I mean
trees trained over the years to be in a small pot. Most likely you have
the
dreaded mallsai. So you read everything you can get your hands on, watch
videos, peruse the internet, join IBC and even join a local bonsai club.
You've got lots of energy and ideas and can't wait to get started. But
you
can't. Why? Because it's still winter. So you wait.

Spring rolls around and you buy some promising nursery stock. Maybe you
go
out collecting, looking for that special tree. If you find one you tag it
because, according to the books, it takes three years to properly dig a
tree
up. So you move on to the nursery stock.

Some of your nursery stock needs to develop roots so you plant them in
oversized training boxes and wait a few years. Some of your stock needs
to
develop trunks so you plant them in oversized training boxes and wait a
few
years. Some have great trunks but the branches are too high so you plant
them in oversized training boxes, trunk chop and wait a few years.

If you're lucky you have some stock that has great roots, trunk and branch
placement so you plant them in training boxes, prune some branches, wire
some other branches or the trunk and wait a few years.

All of the above takes several weekends in the spring. Summer roles
around
and you've got all these training boxes with trees at various stages of
development. You water them, talk to them and are generally very proud of
"pre-bonsai" (although your wife and kids think you're nuts). Friends
come
by and you show off your stock. They don't understand why your bonsai
don't
look like the ones in the pictures. You just shrug it off because they
just
don't understand the "art" of bonsai.

Anyway, you sit in your yard and watch your trees grow, which is much more
exciting than it was watching your grass grow.

Fall rolls around and you start getting your trees ready for winter rest.
You bring some in the house, put some in cold frames, bury some in the
ground and leave them all to sleep. Now what? You start reading
everything
you can get your hands on, watch videos, peruse the internet, read IBC and
even visit your local bonsai club.


After 2-3 years of this you can start looking at real bonsai pots. Maybe
in
5-10 years you may have something worth showing your friends. If you're
still around in 25 years you may actually be able to take one of your
trees
to a show. Yippee!!!

Any of this sound familiar?

John

From: Michael Persiano

This is not a bad idea, but the ONLY way to master
technique is to jump in and do it. Buy materials,
tools, wire, and submerse yourself in the art.

__________________________________________________ _______________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


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****
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****
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John NJ"
Some of you may have forgotten what it's like to be new in this hobby.
Let
me try to refresh your memory.

snip of lots of real bonsai stuff
-------------

Hi John,

No one here has forgotten any of this, of course, because what you've
detailed is what just about all of us do every year, no matter how long
we've been working with bonsai. Almost nothing of what you detailed is
specific to beginners. The only part you got wrong is that it often takes
much less time than most imagine to have good trees - if you really work at
it instead of finding ways to justify not working at it.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
Zone 8, Texas

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In a message dated 2/27/2003 11:40:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

I do not understand what you are saying here. Please clarify.

Okay, I'll give it a try....

The finger technique involves winding the wire around a student's finger
(I'm trying to avoid getting confusing with clockwise, etc.). Now if the
student tries to rotate the finger in the smae direction the wire was wound,
he/she will find that the wire gets tighter, limiting the amount of finger
or branch rotation (assuming that the end from which we are winding is
anchored); if we rotate the finger (or branch) the other way, the wire loses
its grip. By feeling this on their own finger, the student
is more likely to
remember.

Bart:

);-)) This I understood.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob/index.html

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Great Andy!

Why don't you give all of us newbies some tips for speeding up the process?
We're very eager and willing to work hard. Show us how to achieve success a
little sooner than our 80th birthday. ;-)

John

From: Andy Rutledge

The only part you got wrong is that it often takes
much less time than most imagine to have good trees
- if you really work at it instead of finding ways
to justify not working at it.

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Andy,
I agree! :-O

Colin

From: Andy Rutledge

What? Is it intimidating for a anyone to practice good technique and
receive correction from a teacher? This has nothing to do with newbies or
experts. The difference between DOING technique rather than watching
technique is that, with the former, one actually learns to do, and with the
latter, one may or may not learn anything (but, gee, it sure is easier and
not intimidating). Understanding something intellectually (which is all
anyone can get from watching) is of little nor no value when you've not put
in the physical work - regularly, properly, on an continual basis.

We can argue all day long about what is "proper" and what is good for
newbies and what is good for experienced bonsai artists, but the only
relevant issue is "what is effective." If it is intimidating to an
individual to have to do actual work to improve skill, then that's their
problem. The fact is what is intimidating to some is usually what is best.
It's intimidating because there is some standard, some level of expectation
from a teacher - which is nothing but good. Settling for less than best
simply because it is less arduous or less intimidating is ridiculous.

You get out of something what you put into it. Tell me, what do you put
into watching a video or watching someone else wire? Sure, if watching is
followed up by lots of actual work, there is value in watching. If not,
then watching is absolutely worthless. But it sure is less intimidating.
;-p

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John NJ"


Great Andy!

Why don't you give all of us newbies some tips for speeding up the
process?
We're very eager and willing to work hard. Show us how to achieve success
a
little sooner than our 80th birthday. ;-)

John

John:

By your analysis, if one were much older than you, they would derive no
satisfaction at all from bonsai, whereas, in fact, folks in their 60s, 70s
and older enjoy the learning and practice process and find it a relaxing
discipline. (It was Churchill who defined relaxation as "A change of
worry".) It IS relaxing to have your only worry at the moment be figuring
out how to wire this tree without crossing the wires.

While I have a couple of trees I'm very proud of (perhaps reflecting my
taste better than my skill), I would be amazed and delighted if any of them
were selected to be one of the three representing our club (in Morristown,
btw) at the April MidAtlantic show. That in no way diminishes my enjoyment
of bonsai. I have little "nothing" trees that I am fond of for various
reasons, usually the result of something the tree has taught me, or for some
quirk that gives me pleasure.

In my case, the doctors have run out of bad things to tell me, except for
calling the time of my death. Yes, I don't grow things from seed, nut
scattered here and there, hiding in my wife's garden are small trees that
_may_
someday make nice bonsai.

I've always thought that, in a way, bonsai was like fly fishing. The process
is the source of the pleasure.

Regards,

Bart

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