I have a japanese black pine in a 1 gallon nursery pot which I have began to
train. I took the root ball out of the pot to see if it was looking healthy.
I then put it back in, and there is space of air inbetween the root ball and
the bottom of the pot. This may be a stupid question, but I just want to do
what is best for the plant. Should I keep forcing the rootball down into the
pot, or should I fill the gap with soil? The reason I am considering filling
it with soil is because I tried to push the rootball down, but i can't seem
to fill the gap. I don't want to put too much preasure on the roots, or
compact the soil to much because then the air circulation will decrease.
Thanks for your time. - Colin Horn, Orinda, CA

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This may be a stupid question, but I just want to do
what is best for the plant. Should I keep forcing the rootball
down into the
pot, or should I fill the gap with soil?

Good question.

Add the soil. Any good potting soil will do for now.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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In a message dated 5/7/2003 9:38:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

Should I keep forcing the rootball down into the
pot, or should I fill the gap with soil? The reason I am considering filling
it with soil is because I tried to push the rootball down, but i can't seem
to fill the gap. I don't want to put too much preasure on the roots, or
compact the soil to much because then the air circulation
will decrease.

Colin:

Simply add soil and tuck it in.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano

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Cam,

It sounds like you are experiencing some form of damp off - generally a
fungal attack of the soft stem at ground level. This is most likely if they
fall over. Solutions include using a very well draining soil (some use
straight sand) and making sure that they do not stay over wet. There are
also fungicides that can be used for damp off, but I have not found them
necessary.

I normally plant pine seed in flats with well draining soil (2/3 fine lava
(sand works) and 1/3 fine bark) outside for the winter with screen or
something on top to keep the critters out. Better than 50% germination is
common and I only lose a few in the spring - most often to forgetting to
water on the first hot day or so.

Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
cam
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 8:30 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Japanese black pine

Hi:

I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.

So far, everytime I plant the seeds, they sprout great, get to about 2
or 3 inches tall then die.

Any ideas? Should I chill the seeds first? I`ve heard that this is
sometimes necessary for effective growth.

PS The seedlings that I tried to grow were done indoors. I was
planning (had they lived) to move outside in spring.

Thanks.

Cam
www.bonsaichat.com

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Cam,

It sounds like you are experiencing some form of damp off - generally a
fungal attack of the soft stem at ground level. This is most likely if they
fall over. Solutions include using a very well draining soil (some use
straight sand) and making sure that they do not stay over wet. There are
also fungicides that can be used for damp off, but I have not found them
necessary.

I normally plant pine seed in flats with well draining soil (2/3 fine lava
(sand works) and 1/3 fine bark) outside for the winter with screen or
something on top to keep the critters out. Better than 50% germination is
common and I only lose a few in the spring - most often to forgetting to
water on the first hot day or so.

Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
cam
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 8:30 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Japanese black pine

Hi:

I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.

So far, everytime I plant the seeds, they sprout great, get to about 2
or 3 inches tall then die.

Any ideas? Should I chill the seeds first? I`ve heard that this is
sometimes necessary for effective growth.

PS The seedlings that I tried to grow were done indoors. I was
planning (had they lived) to move outside in spring.

Thanks.

Cam
www.bonsaichat.com

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Cam,

It sounds like you are experiencing some form of damp off - generally a
fungal attack of the soft stem at ground level. This is most likely if they
fall over. Solutions include using a very well draining soil (some use
straight sand) and making sure that they do not stay over wet. There are
also fungicides that can be used for damp off, but I have not found them
necessary.

I normally plant pine seed in flats with well draining soil (2/3 fine lava
(sand works) and 1/3 fine bark) outside for the winter with screen or
something on top to keep the critters out. Better than 50% germination is
common and I only lose a few in the spring - most often to forgetting to
water on the first hot day or so.

Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
cam
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 8:30 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Japanese black pine

Hi:

I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.

So far, everytime I plant the seeds, they sprout great, get to about 2
or 3 inches tall then die.

Any ideas? Should I chill the seeds first? I`ve heard that this is
sometimes necessary for effective growth.

PS The seedlings that I tried to grow were done indoors. I was
planning (had they lived) to move outside in spring.

Thanks.

Cam
www.bonsaichat.com

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

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In a message dated 1/27/2004 12:21:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

So far, everytime I plant the seeds, they sprout great, get to about 2
or 3 inches tall then die.

I use 100% large particle vermiculite to start seeds. It is totally inert,
being a form of expanded mica, a mineral. I then transfer to potting soil
when the seedlings get their first true leaves. I suppose you could keep them in
vermiculite longer by watering with a liquid fertilizer.
This works because the damp off fungus can't live on the inert vermiculite.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai
Society
http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html

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Cam,

Damping off MAY be a contributing factor, but the fact that you're starting
these seedlings indoors is likely the reason they're dying. Black pine
should be started outdoors in the appropriate season. They should never
find themselves indoors (except at night during a freeze - then back out in
the daytime).

Start your seeds in spring outside and you should have no problems. I've
never lost a pine seedling by following the rules of nature. Best of luck!

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "cam"
Hi:
I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.
So far, everytime I plant the seeds, they sprout great, get to about 2
or 3 inches tall then die.
Any ideas? Should I chill the seeds first? I`ve heard that this is
sometimes necessary for effective growth.
PS The seedlings that I tried to grow were done indoors. I was
planning (had they lived) to move outside in spring.
Thanks.
Cam

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I'll add to what Andy said. Damping off can't easily occur if you use a soil-less mix and surface-sterilize the seeds before planting. The trick with starting any kind of seed indoors is to keep the soil warm enough and the air moist enough without also
having soggy soil.

With bonsai, I plant seeds in pots and overwinter them. Then they can germinate whenever they feel like it. Saves me a lot of trouble.


-Nina
-----Original Message-----

Date: Mon Jan 26 23:30:28 EST 2004
From: "cam"
Subject: [IBC] Japanese black pine
To:

Hi:

I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.

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I'll add to what Andy said. Damping off can't easily occur if you use a soil-less mix and surface-sterilize the seeds before planting. The trick with starting any kind of seed indoors is to keep the soil warm enough and the air moist enough without also
having soggy soil.

With bonsai, I plant seeds in pots and overwinter them. Then they can germinate whenever they feel like it. Saves me a lot of trouble.


-Nina
-----Original Message-----

Date: Mon Jan 26 23:30:28 EST 2004
From: "cam"
Subject: [IBC] Japanese black pine
To:

Hi:

I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.

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This works because the damp off fungus can't live on the inert vermiculite.

Sadly, it's not true. The damping off fungi (there are a few of them) can live anywhere moist, but they need to get there. Generally the bag of vermiculite you buy is fungus-free. However, a couple of years ago I was working with Marge Daughtrey on the
ecology of damping-off fungi in greenhouses, and not only did we find it everywhere in the greenhouse, we also found it in bags of peat, prior to being potted up. So although I'd advise anyone to start with clean materials, getting clean materials may not
be so easy. I'd store my bags of potting components in a dry place. I'd control fungus gnats and shore flies, both of which are suspected of spreading fungi around in greenhouses. [hands down the worst part of this survey we did was plating out shore f
ly corpses to look for fungi. Ick].

-Nina

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This works because the damp off fungus can't live on the inert vermiculite.

Sadly, it's not true. The damping off fungi (there are a few of them) can live anywhere moist, but they need to get there. Generally the bag of vermiculite you buy is fungus-free. However, a couple of years ago I was working with Marge Daughtrey on the
ecology of damping-off fungi in greenhouses, and not only did we find it everywhere in the greenhouse, we also found it in bags of peat, prior to being potted up. So although I'd advise anyone to start with clean materials, getting clean materials may not
be so easy. I'd store my bags of potting components in a dry place. I'd control fungus gnats and shore flies, both of which are suspected of spreading fungi around in greenhouses. [hands down the worst part of this survey we did was plating out shore f
ly corpses to look for fungi. Ick].

-Nina

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Hello to All,
Cam,

as someone in the Tropics,I stick the black pine seeds
in the vegetable crisper section of my refrigerator for
about 3 months or if I forget them longer.As long as the
container is air tight and dry[normally I don't open the
pack unless I am planting all in a shot.A seed pack often
holds 30 seeds.],they will last.

For soil,it's sand/fine gravel [size - 0 and o] to 3 inches
deep,with a very little peat moss mixed in and a treatment
with a soil fungicide.I think what I used was called Banrot.
As Andy says,outdoors,and for me it's light shade with
a mesh over the surface to stop anything from interfering
with seed.

Germination starts within 9 to10 days and the mesh
is removed as the seeds break through the sand.

After six months or so,I transfer to individual 4" pots of sand
with a little peat moss.Sand is this big - 0.

I have never had the guts to do the chop off the root technique
of seedlings as seen in the earlier issues of Bonsai Today,so
I handle root placement at a later stage.
Placement in 4" pots is full sun.

Once their happily growing,fertiliser is every two weeks and
they get lots of water as the soil mix drains well.

Please factor in that I have no winter or spring or other and
I can start seeds whenever I wish,though I usually do so
around my birthday in February.Makes it easier to remember
when they were born.
I am on batch number 6.

I even got white pines to live for 2 years and then the parasol
ants pruned their heads-bah humbug.
Until later.
Khaimraj
[ West Indies/Caribbean]

*I have grown seed from Japan and England,from commercial
packs.


-----Original Message-----
From: cam
To:
Date: 26 January 2004 20:44
Subject: [IBC] Japanese black pine


Hi:

I`ve been trying to get some Japanese black pine seeds to grow.

So far, everytime I plant the seeds, they sprout great, get to about 2
or 3 inches tall then die.

Any ideas? Should I chill the seeds first? I`ve heard that this is
sometimes necessary for effective growth.

PS The seedlings that I tried to grow were done indoors. I was
planning (had they lived) to move outside in spring.

Thanks.

Cam
www.bonsaichat.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++