----- Original Message -----
From: "dgdgdg"

Hi,

Is copper wire in 1.5mm to 2.5mm suitable for wiring branch styles? -
its a lot cheaper than the bronzed aluminium sold for styling, but
would it corrode on the tree and damage it?

If you're talking about the kind of copper wire (electrician's) that you buy
in Home Depot, the short answer is NO.

Corrosion isn't the problem. Copper wire is used regularly in Bonsai, but it
must be annealed, so that it is very flexible, but work hardens (gets much
stiffer as you bend it). In short, the wire goes on easily, but then holds
its position and must be cut off.

For a great fuller discussion, See the articles at Evergreen Gardenworks:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi2.htm

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi.htm

Regards,

Bart

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Bart: The wire from Home Depot and other building supply outlets will work just
fine, but as you note it must be annealed to make it pliable for use in training
branches. That is not a very hard thing to do. Basically you just heat it up to
cherry red in a kiln or a barbecue pit. You can let it cool slowly or use tongs to
pick it up and douse it in water. The second way tends to leave a cleaner wire.
The confusion can come from the fact that the labels on the Home Depot or
Lowe's wire often describes it as annealed. They are using the term very loosely,
because it is not pliable enough for bonsai use as is.
By the way, copper wire is measured in gauges, not mm.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Is copper wire in 1.5mm to 2.5mm suitable for wiring branch styles? -
its a lot cheaper than the bronzed aluminium sold for styling, but
would it corrode on the tree and damage it?
========
Bart Thomas wrote:
If you're talking about the kind of copper wire (electrician's) that you buy
in Home Depot, the short answer is NO.
Corrosion isn't the problem. Copper wire is used regularly in Bonsai, but it
must be annealed, so that it is very flexible, but work hardens (gets much stiffer
as you bend it). In short, the wire goes on easily, but then holds
its position and must be cut off.
For a great fuller discussion, See the articles at Evergreen Gardenworks:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi2.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi.htm
Regards,
Bart

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By the way, copper wire is measured in gauges, not mm.

In some parts of the world. All the wire I see at the local nursery coming our of Japan is in mm. AWG does stand for American Wire Gauge incidently. Since this is an international community, use this handy dandy conversion chart and everyone is happy!

http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/awg.htm

Len

PLEASE NOTE MY NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS:

http://www.bonsairi.com
http://www.rhodeislandbonsaisociety.org

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"dgdgdg" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Is copper wire in 1.5mm to 2.5mm suitable for wiring branch
styles? -
its a lot cheaper than the bronzed aluminium sold for
styling,
but
would it corrode on the tree and damage it?

Unless you're a lot more experienced than me (4 yrs), I'd
recommend spending the extra money for the aluminium wire.

Copper has to be annealed and is harder to bend. I've done a
lot
more damage to my trees with copper than I ever did with
aluminium.


Aside from ease of application, one's preference for copper
versus aluminum wire is somewhat a cosmetic one. It takes a
thicker "gage" of aluminum wire to hold a given branch than
copper, so the wire is more visible on the tree. Also, the color
of copper-colored aluminum wire varies considerably, and it
doesn't corrode to the same dull patina as copper so it can
remain quite visible.

That said, unless you do LARGE trees, I think aluminum is the
better choice.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Jim Lewis wrote:

snip

Aside from ease of application, one's preference for copper
versus aluminum wire is somewhat a cosmetic one. It takes a
thicker "gage" of aluminum wire to hold a given branch than
copper, so the wire is more visible on the tree. Also, the color
of copper-colored aluminum wire varies considerably, and it
doesn't corrode to the same dull patina as copper so it can
remain quite visible.

That said, unless you do LARGE trees, I think aluminum is the
better choice.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

I do the opposite--I use finer copper wire, 12 or 14 gauge from Home Depot. I strip
the insulation, coil it up, put it on the electric burner, put the teapot with
water on top and turn on the burner. The wire gets annealed and I get hot water
for tea. I then pick up the hot wire and dunk it in water. Works great. I use
the heavy aluminum wire because it's easier to bend.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a

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"Alan Walker" wrote in message
...
Bart: The wire from Home Depot and other building supply outlets will
work just
fine, but as you note it must be annealed to make it pliable for use in
training
branches. That is not a very hard thing to do. Basically you just heat
it up to
cherry red in a kiln or a barbecue pit. You can let it cool slowly or use
tongs to
pick it up and douse it in water. The second way tends to leave a cleaner
wire.

Hi, Alan.

Okay, I got some home depot wire and tried it in my 3 burner gas Weber.
After letting it run for a long time with the coiled (large diameter coil) I
found that I had barely gotten to 700 degress, and the grill was smoking
like a major fire! Major parts could be described as "cherry" red, but not
glowing brightly.

My suspicion is that that was not enough, but it's a heck of a way to clean
or pre-heat the grill! I cooled the wire by hanging it on a wrought-iron
hook and spraying it with the hose.

Has anyone tried putting the wire in the oven during a cleaning cycle? That
would seem to get hotter and be more cost-efficient - if you don't risk
destroying the oven or setting the house on fire.

Regards,

Bart

On May 16, 2003 07:06 pm, you wrote:

"Alan Walker" wrote in message
...
heat it up to
cherry red in a kiln or a barbecue pit. You can let it cool slowly or
use tongs to pick it up and douse it in water. The second way tends to
leave a cleaner wire.


Hi, Alan.

Okay, I got some home depot wire and tried it in my 3 burner gas Weber.
After letting it run for a long time with the coiled (large diameter
coil) I found that I had barely gotten to 700 degress, and the grill was
smoking like a major fire! Major parts could be described as "cherry"
red, but not glowing brightly.

My suspicion is that that was not enough, but it's a heck of a way to
clean or pre-heat the grill! I cooled the wire by hanging it on a
wrought-iron hook and spraying it with the hose.

Has anyone tried putting the wire in the oven during a cleaning cycle?
That would seem to get hotter and be more cost-efficient - if you don't
risk destroying the oven or setting the house on fire.

Regards,

Bart

===============
Bart, and all.
This was one of many notes on annealing available via the search engine of
choice. I'd think that a simple propane torch would be plenty enough to do
the deed. For a definitive reference on metal handling see the
"Machinery's Handbook". Mine is the 23rd edition.

From: http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/archiv..._index_131.htm

Annealing is the softening of metal by heat treatment.

Ferrous metals are annealed by heating to just above the A3 point (a point
above non-magnetic that varies with the carbon content), and then cooling
slowly. For common carbon steels the cooling can be done in dry ashes, lime
powder or vermiculite. For high carbon and alloy steels annealing requires
cooling in a furnace that has temperature controls so that the rate of
cooling is no more than ~20°F/hr.

Non-ferrous metals such as aluminium, brass, copper and silver are annealed
by heating to a low red and quenching in water (the opposite of steel).
--
http://www.amical.net - The Friendly IRC Network.

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two things:
first. one of the ways i anneal wire is to throw a coil of romex any
gauge into a fire in the fireplace late in the evening when the embers
are glowing brightly and hot. i let the heat burn the insulation off
(air pollution, i know but look at a truck's exhaust stack sometime). In
the morning i fish the coil out of the ashes and viola, i have annealed
wire. thing is you need to have one of those nylon pot scrubbers to
clean the residue off the wire when you use it. don't uncoil and clean
it all at once, uncoiling causes the wire to lose some softness.

the other thing: please put the reply BEFORE the copied thread. most of
the time i know about the thread and all of the posts and don't need to
read each again. i would like to just get to the message and skip all
the extra stuff.

just my two cents

art

two things:
first. one of the ways i anneal wire is to throw a coil of
romex any
gauge into a fire in the fireplace late in the evening when
the embers
are glowing brightly and hot. i let the heat burn the
insulation off
(air pollution, i know but look at a truck's exhaust stack
sometime).

Hate to tell you this, but the emissions from that coil of
burning plastic is MUCH worse than any truck exhaust (truck
exhaust, by the way, in general is less toxic (polluting) than
auto exhaust); you really wouldn't like to see the list ofr
carcinogenic, tetragenic, and mutagenic chemicals that are
emitted by burning plastic. Add this to the fact that you are
doing it inside the house(!!!) and you are courting trouble for
you and you family. I don't care HOW well your fireplace draws.

snip

the other thing: please put the reply BEFORE the copied thread.
most of
the time i know about the thread and all of the posts and don't
need to
read each again. i would like to just get to the message and
skip all
the extra stuff.

If this list existed for you and you alone, that would be fine, I
suppose.

However, it is VERY long-standing e-mail etiquette to put the
response at the END of a thread (or at various points in the
middle, when responding to different portions of a thread, as I
am doing here, but still AFTER the part being responded to!).
Not everyone has an eidetic memory such as you seem to have; this
allows people to refresh their memories about a thread. It also
allows folks who may be coming into a thread late to easily
discover what it's all about.

The standard request that we all use selective snipping of
incoming messages (as done here) applies; we do not need to read
ALL of every old message.

So, to be polite, responses should follow the portion of the
message being responded to. Otherwise in a technical, semantic
sense, they're not "responses," are they?

Get a wheel mouse if you don't like to move the mouse in order to
scroll down.

(Exceptions can be made for short, one-line responses, to short,
one-line queries where everything resides on one screen.)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL -- Bonsai List
manager

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