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Old 24-06-2003, 06:56 PM
DouglasTaylor
 
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Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

I was puttering with my trees yesterday, under the shelter of my porch
while a thunder storm made it way over the valley. It has rained A LOT this
Spring/Summer and it has been 10 - 20 deg cooler then normal here in New
England. I choose a Trident maple that needed some attention. I have been
growing this little tree for three or four years from one of those Miniature
Plant Kingdom 4" starter pots. A couple years ago I transplanted it into a
10" water plant screen pot and the root development has been great. The
tree is starting to look decent though the first branch is a two foot long
sacrifice branch which is doing its job, increasing the base of the tree. I
have kept the top trimmed and compact until the rain started a couple of
months ago. When it caught my eye today I noticed it had tiny three quarter
inch leaves on the end of three inch petioles. I decided it must be the cool
overcast weather and the leaves where stretching out looking for the sun.
With the break in the weather expected I decided to defoliate the top of the
tree to keep it compact and to stop this stretching. But I was in a
quandary, what about the sacrifice branch I was concerned that if I left the
leaves only on it the tree may sacrifice the top once it was defoliated.
What would you have done?
I decided to play it safe and defoliate the sacrificial branch also even
though I really don’t care if it had large leaves or not it is only going to
be chopped off when its job is done. Was this the correct choice?

Doug Taylor
Zone 5 Mass

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Old 24-06-2003, 07:08 PM
Kitsune Miko
 
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Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

I think you made the right choice. Delfoliation
serves several purposes and should only be done on
very healthy trees. It does reduce leaf size, but it
also shortens internodes and increases branching. If
you had left leaves on the sacrificial branch, It
could have taken over the entire tree. It sounds like
your tree needs more light.

I uaually fertilize the week before defoliation.

Kitsune Miko

--- DouglasTaylor wrote:
I was puttering with my trees yesterday, under the
shelter of my porch
while a thunder storm made it way over the valley.
It has rained A LOT this
Spring/Summer and it has been 10 - 20 deg cooler
then normal here in New
England. I choose a Trident maple that needed some
attention. I have been
growing this little tree for three or four years
from one of those Miniature
Plant Kingdom 4" starter pots. A couple years ago I
transplanted it into a
10" water plant screen pot and the root development
has been great. The
tree is starting to look decent though the first
branch is a two foot long
sacrifice branch which is doing its job, increasing
the base of the tree. I
have kept the top trimmed and compact until the rain
started a couple of
months ago. When it caught my eye today I noticed it
had tiny three quarter
inch leaves on the end of three inch petioles. I
decided it must be the cool
overcast weather and the leaves where stretching out
looking for the sun.
With the break in the weather expected I decided to
defoliate the top of the
tree to keep it compact and to stop this stretching.
But I was in a
quandary, what about the sacrifice branch I was
concerned that if I left the
leaves only on it the tree may sacrifice the top
once it was defoliated.
What would you have done?
I decided to play it safe and defoliate the
sacrificial branch also even
though I really don’t care if it had large leaves or
not it is only going to
be chopped off when its job is done. Was this the
correct choice?

Doug Taylor
Zone 5 Mass


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page
++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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Old 24-06-2003, 10:20 PM
Ben Griffin
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

My trident did the same thing this spring. Im also in
the north east NY, NY and have had similar rainy cool
conditions. not today though we hit 90 today.
Such weird weather, we haven't really gotten above 80
most days till this spring were in the upper 60's and
low 70's. Now looks like we are going to have a 4 day
heat wave. They are saying wednesday we might hit
100........ My trees must be so confused. Anyway i
have had 4 spring flushes this strange spring on my
trident. It grows about 10 times faster then all my
other trees only my siberian elm even comes close. I
have already reduced the leaves on the tree by 1/3 4
times this spring. If i don't then it stops looking
like a tree and starts looking like a bush. I have
noticed the triple leaf burst from the joints on the
tree. I even have some with 3 tiny leaves and 2 huge
2 inch leaves from the same node. "no im not using
superthrive" Its very strange. I have mine in a spot
that gets about 4 hours of direct sun a day. I have
been trimming off the larger leaves and leaving the
smaller ones. Ive also been cutting down wild shoots
that fly out at will. Seems like during a 4 day rain
spell the tree grows a half a foot wide bush..... I
don't think your trident would have dropped its upper
growth if you had left the sacrifice branch alone. I
am not growing for trunk girth anymore though and i
don't have a sacrifice branch going right now. I do
know though that tridents are unbelievably hardy.
While my siberian elm will drop leaves if i let the
growth get out of hand my trident will not. It does
consume about 2 times as much water as any other tree
i have though. Mine actually broke dormancy mid
winter this year and has had the strongest spring
growth of any of my trees.

Ben

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #4   Report Post  
Old 25-06-2003, 09:20 AM
Theo
 
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Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

HI
I am quite interested in tridents and maples in general

I have repotted 2 of them (tridents )and are growing extremely well ,long shots
that I left for growing roots and give more volume to the crown at teh same ..
the second is a young one same strong growth and repotting fron its first
conatner anc cuut roots also , . plus 1 Oridono in a growing pot... I did not
touch his roots ( oridono) and i think I should defoliate as shots are 3 ft hight
... I stop fertilizing last monday., clip the terminal buds and I am planning to
cut leaves this week end..
as thetridents are wery wealthy and as I repotted them in april is too
dangerous or NOT to defoliate now ?
I guess It is the last moment for doing it ..
Moreover here it is very very hot for the season but it is forecasted rain for the
next week ..
your advice ?
Theo



Kitsune Miko wrote:

I think you made the right choice. Delfoliation
serves several purposes and should only be done on
very healthy trees. It does reduce leaf size, but it
also shortens internodes and increases branching. If
you had left leaves on the sacrificial branch, It
could have taken over the entire tree. It sounds like
your tree needs more light.

I uaually fertilize the week before defoliation.

Kitsune Miko

--- DouglasTaylor wrote:
I was puttering with my trees yesterday, under the
shelter of my porch
while a thunder storm made it way over the valley.
It has rained A LOT this
Spring/Summer and it has been 10 - 20 deg cooler
then normal here in New
England. I choose a Trident maple that needed some
attention. I have been
growing this little tree for three or four years
from one of those Miniature
Plant Kingdom 4" starter pots. A couple years ago I
transplanted it into a
10" water plant screen pot and the root development
has been great. The
tree is starting to look decent though the first
branch is a two foot long
sacrifice branch which is doing its job, increasing
the base of the tree. I
have kept the top trimmed and compact until the rain
started a couple of
months ago. When it caught my eye today I noticed it
had tiny three quarter
inch leaves on the end of three inch petioles. I
decided it must be the cool
overcast weather and the leaves where stretching out
looking for the sun.
With the break in the weather expected I decided to
defoliate the top of the
tree to keep it compact and to stop this stretching.
But I was in a
quandary, what about the sacrifice branch I was
concerned that if I left the
leaves only on it the tree may sacrifice the top
once it was defoliated.
What would you have done?
I decided to play it safe and defoliate the
sacrificial branch also even
though I really don’t care if it had large leaves or
not it is only going to
be chopped off when its job is done. Was this the
correct choice?

Doug Taylor
Zone 5 Mass


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page
++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


--

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  #5   Report Post  
Old 25-06-2003, 02:44 PM
Jim Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

.. I stop fertilizing last monday., clip the terminal buds
and I am planning to
cut leaves this week end..
as thetridents are wery wealthy and as I repotted them in

april is too
dangerous or NOT to defoliate now ?
I guess It is the last moment for doing it ..
Moreover here it is very very hot for the season but it is

forecasted rain for the
next week ..
your advice ?


You have a fairly short growing season. If they were MY trees,
and if I lived under the same climate, I would not defoliate in
the same year I repotted.

They _probably_ would survive the experiment, but I'd wonder how
strong they'd be come winter.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


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Old 26-06-2003, 04:45 AM
MartyWeiser
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

I would like to add that growing long sacrifice branches and defoliation are
generally done for very different reasons. The long branches increase the
size of branches and trunk below them, but have very little use in the
finished bonsai and are almost always removed two nodes or less (less being
most common). Defoliation is designed to promote the development of more
fine branches on a tree that already has its basic structure and the
branches are approximately the correct size.

It is possible and reasonable to have a small number of sacrifice branches
on a tree that is being defoliated. These are generally not defoliated
since defoliation defeats the purpose of allowing the sacrifice branch to
grow wild. However, this is generally a very carefully defined strategy on
a reasonably well developed tree - "this bit here needs to be a bit
thicker".

Marty

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #7   Report Post  
Old 26-06-2003, 04:08 PM
DouglasTaylor
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Trident maple training question

Thanks Marty great advice
You are correct (IMHO) defoliation should be one of the final steps in
bonsai design and it is rear to have a sacrifice branch and the tree being
at the point where defoliation is the proper thing to do, but I believe this
was the correct step in the training process for this tree. It had a nice
compact top but the extended overcast, rainy weather caused the inter-nodes
on the top to increase and the petioles to get way long. I left the
sacrifice branch just to increase the taper at the base of the tree. Next
year (2004) I will be cutting this branch completely off and then the
following spring (2005) I believe it will be time for it's first Bonsai pot.
I think it will make a decent small (8-9") bonsai.

I was wondering if defoliating the sacrifice branch was the proper/safest
thing to do even though it is contradictory (slows girth growth) to the
purpose of the sacrifice branch. I was concerned that if I left the leaves
on the sacrifice branch the tree, might give up on the, fairly well
developed, top.

So far most list replies said it was the safest thing to do.

Doug.

..
----- Original Message -----
From: "MartyWeiser"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:19 PM
Subject: [IBC] Trident maple training question


I would like to add that growing long sacrifice branches and defoliation

are
generally done for very different reasons. The long branches increase the
size of branches and trunk below them, but have very little use in the
finished bonsai and are almost always removed two nodes or less (less

being
most common). Defoliation is designed to promote the development of more
fine branches on a tree that already has its basic structure and the
branches are approximately the correct size.

It is possible and reasonable to have a small number of sacrifice branches
on a tree that is being defoliated. These are generally not defoliated
since defoliation defeats the purpose of allowing the sacrifice branch to
grow wild. However, this is generally a very carefully defined strategy

on
a reasonably well developed tree - "this bit here needs to be a bit
thicker".

Marty


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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