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#1
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[IBC] Water pH
Hi,
I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with limited success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I had the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water. Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be done to correct it if required. Regards, Gordon Williams ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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[IBC] Water pH
Hi,
Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead. Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the reason my pines were dying. Regards, Gordon Williams ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickering, Nick" To: "'Gordon Williams'" Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: [IBC] Water pH Blimey. That is very hard water !! You can reduce the pH of the water you give to your plants by adding vinegar. It's worthwhile taking a litre of water, adding small amounts of vinegar, until the pH reads about 6-7. Then you should know how much water you need to add to your can before each watering. The procedure is pretty quick. Seriously, i've never come across such hard water as that. Regards Nick BTW, you can use lemon juice, phosphoric acid, etc. as a 'pH down' solution. (Bicarbonate of Soda can be used as a 'pH up'). -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Williams ] Sent: 11 July 2003 15:50 To: Subject: [IBC] Water pH Hi, I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with limited success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I had the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water. Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be done to correct it if required. Regards, Gordon Williams ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be corrected. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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[IBC] Water pH
the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke
to someone in the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water. I've been away (and all my plants have mutated to octupuses in 5 days!) so don't know what else has been said in this thread. However, the fellow in your water office probably was right for plants that are growing in the ground. He was NOT right for bonsai. If you use something like turface in your mix that is going to give your soil a fairly high pH reading anyway, and it will have little or no buffering effect on the soil your trees grow in. Add some well-cured horse/goat/cow/llama/chicken manure compost to your soil. Add sphagnum moss, or COARSE peat. Other suggestions about adding vinegar or lemon juice to your water may have some merit. I've never heard of drinking water with that high a pH. Use at least a 20-20-20 (acid) fertilizer. Do NOT try to grow azaleas or blueberries. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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[IBC] Water pH
The pH is starving your plants. The take up of nutrients is partly a factor
of pH at that high a pH your plants are getting any food. That is why they decline and die Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#6
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[IBC] Water pH
Hi,
Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead. Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the reason my pines were dying. Regards, Gordon Williams ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickering, Nick" To: "'Gordon Williams'" Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: [IBC] Water pH Blimey. That is very hard water !! You can reduce the pH of the water you give to your plants by adding vinegar. It's worthwhile taking a litre of water, adding small amounts of vinegar, until the pH reads about 6-7. Then you should know how much water you need to add to your can before each watering. The procedure is pretty quick. Seriously, i've never come across such hard water as that. Regards Nick BTW, you can use lemon juice, phosphoric acid, etc. as a 'pH down' solution. (Bicarbonate of Soda can be used as a 'pH up'). -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Williams ] Sent: 11 July 2003 15:50 To: Subject: [IBC] Water pH Hi, I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with limited success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I had the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water. Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be done to correct it if required. Regards, Gordon Williams ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be corrected. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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[IBC] Water pH
the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke
to someone in the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water. I've been away (and all my plants have mutated to octupuses in 5 days!) so don't know what else has been said in this thread. However, the fellow in your water office probably was right for plants that are growing in the ground. He was NOT right for bonsai. If you use something like turface in your mix that is going to give your soil a fairly high pH reading anyway, and it will have little or no buffering effect on the soil your trees grow in. Add some well-cured horse/goat/cow/llama/chicken manure compost to your soil. Add sphagnum moss, or COARSE peat. Other suggestions about adding vinegar or lemon juice to your water may have some merit. I've never heard of drinking water with that high a pH. Use at least a 20-20-20 (acid) fertilizer. Do NOT try to grow azaleas or blueberries. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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[IBC] Water pH
The pH is starving your plants. The take up of nutrients is partly a factor
of pH at that high a pH your plants are getting any food. That is why they decline and die Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
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[IBC] Water pH
Gordon - there's got to be some confusion here somewhere between you
and the water company A pH of 9.2 is not low, it's HIGH. Neutral is pH 7.0, the higher numbers are alkaline, and the lower numbers acid. A pH of 9.2 is quite high for drinking water! Bet it practically rattles coming out of the faucet... "Hard" water, that is, with a large amount of dissolved salts, typically has a higher pH as well. Mugos, like most pines, prefer soil on the acid side. My references say ~6, and as low as 4! Depending on the components of your bonsai soil, the high pH of your water *may* be an problem. The water company was right that soil can change the pH of applied water, but that is true mostly for ground-soil, where you have a large volume and a lot of organic content with buffering capacity on your side. Container plants in peat-based houseplant soil would be less affected than bonsai in gravel or baked-clay-based soils without much organic content. High pH also reduces the ability of plants to absorb certain trace elements, especially metals. This may be weakening your mugos, as well as other plants. Look at your local plant supply supplier for a fertilizer that contains chelated iron. Here's an excellent online guide to pH prefs of landscape plants: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...s/1731-29.html You'll notice that they give only 3 categories, slightly alkaline, slightly acid, and more acid. Nothing much prefers more alkaline, and most plants are really pretty adaptable (notice how many have Xs in 2 or all 3 categories). Another possibility is that mugos, in my brief experience, and many friends' reported losses, really dislike simultaneous root and top work. Try doing only one "half" each year, and see if that less cavalier approach helps! For your water, here's some options: -acidify the water -use distilled or rain water for *all* your bonsai -make your soil mix more acid with a higher organic content to buffer Which of these makes the most sense for your particular situation, only you can judge. Do you have other bonsai enthusiasts in the area with same water supply that you can trade notes with? Grow well, Anita Gordon Williams wrote: Hi, Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead. Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the reason my pines were dying. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
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[IBC] Water pH
Could we have a situation where the water system is going for the higher pH
to slow dissolution of lead in the solder joints, but have softened the water with sodium or potassium replacement of the natural magnesium or calcium cations? This is what is done in a standard household water softener - lousy water for plants, but you your shampoo lathers and you don't get those ugly hard water stains. At the other end of the pH spectrum acetic acid found in vinegar is a standard way to leach out lead to look at the solder joint structure. I agree that to growth pines and some of the other plants that prefer lower pH conditions will require either different water or adjusting the pH of your current water. Rainwater is good if you can store it, distilled is expensive and will require a fair bit of trace mineral attention, and adjusting was covered a year or so ago - I believe the preferred acid was nitric (might as well add a little nitrate while you are at it), but this is very touchy business - commercial nitric acid is very dangerous and will have to be diluted one the order of thousands:1 depending upon the actual water composition. Unless you are trained chemist the other approaches are safer to both yourself and your bonsai. Regards - Marty Gordon Williams wrote: Hi, Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead. Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the reason my pines were dying. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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[IBC] Water pH
Anita Hawkins wrote:
snip Another possibility is that mugos, in my brief experience, and many friends' reported losses, really dislike simultaneous root and top work. Try doing only one "half" each year, and see if that less cavalier approach helps! snip Grow well, Anita That's been my experience, for sure. I have had three mugo pines, all of them lost because of inexperience, probably doing just what Anita suggests--working on top and bottom at the same time. It's best to learn from the tree what it likes best so that it can live healthy. Advice from other who have worked on the same species is good too. Rushing things when they shouldn't be rushed is not good. As with anything else in life, timing is everything. On the other hand, waiting too long for fear of failure isn't good either. I have learned a good lesson from my trees--that finding a good balance between holding back and moving ahead is a very good thing. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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