Dale:

When I checked out the pots in BT, not even paying attention to their
size, my only thoughts were that they looked almost completely modern in
an art form where classic and "old" seems to be the overriding theme.
Personally they didn't appeal to me. Some are beautiful pottery, but
from a bonsai standpoint they really didn't seem to work for me. I will
admit that I do like a more modern pottery approach for some of my
trees, but even with that preference I found them almost too modern or
too non-traditional. Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists. I
guess time (and next years competition) will tell.

Bil
wmcorcor

PS The size was a little much for my trees too....

==
== I'm really curious if the average bonsai guy oit there would , upon
== seeing one for sale at a convention, think to himself, "oh yea, I
could
== put my azalea in that"
== Regards,
== Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio

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Bill,
Your answer is the type I was looking for. You actually answered the
question :)
Next years Takagi comp I'm sure will be more of new-era type bonsai
containers.
No word on NBF up to 2005 . Possibly then for world convention I guess.
Still in the works. But, judging will be a diferent game altogether than
Takagi's scheme.
Dale

----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Dale:

When I checked out the pots in BT, not even paying attention to their
size, my only thoughts were that they looked almost completely modern in
an art form where classic and "old" seems to be the overriding theme.
Personally they didn't appeal to me. Some are beautiful pottery, but
from a bonsai standpoint they really didn't seem to work for me. I will
admit that I do like a more modern pottery approach for some of my
trees, but even with that preference I found them almost too modern or
too non-traditional. Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists. I
guess time (and next years competition) will tell.

Bil

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From Dale:
Bill,
Your answer is the type I was looking for. You actually
answered the
question :)
Next years Takagi comp I'm sure will be more of new-era type
bonsai
containers.
No word on NBF up to 2005 . Possibly then for world
convention I guess.
Still in the works. But, judging will be a diferent game
altogether than
Takagi's scheme.
Dale

Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.
On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn

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virtual tree ... virtual pot

Once there was a virtual potter who planted a virtual tree in a virtual pot.
He fired up the creation to 2300F (virtually,of course). The pot didn't
crack, the tree didn't lose a leaf. It was a mastepiece of virtuality. The
entire virtual bonsai community applauded.
The only problem was that there weren't any non-visualists to visualize the
result.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:05 PM
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


From Dale:
Bill,
Your answer is the type I was looking for. You actually
answered the
question :)
Next years Takagi comp I'm sure will be more of new-era type
bonsai
containers.
No word on NBF up to 2005 . Possibly then for world
convention I guess.
Still in the works. But, judging will be a diferent game
altogether than
Takagi's scheme.
Dale

Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.
On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn


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****
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****
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From Marty:
virtual tree ... virtual pot
Once there was a virtual potter who planted a virtual tree
in a virtual pot.
He fired up the creation to 2300F (virtually,of course).
The pot didn't
crack, the tree didn't lose a leaf. It was a mastepiece of
virtuality. The
entire virtual bonsai community applauded.
The only problem was that there weren't any non-visualists
to visualize the
result.
Marty
--------------------------

Sure, Marty!
I saw an exhibit at Takagi, wondered if Japan had the
bonsaists to fill the "new era" pots displayed. In the past
two years I no longer wonder if there are trees to fit in
those pots. I wonder now if there are pots enough to hold all
the trees.
Check Walter's "Bear" in the gallery. Now, I think it
would have been easier just to virtualize a pot design and
leave the tree alone as Walter wanted it. But - no potter
jumps in to offer a pot design as others do to design a
tree -prune, trim, bend or chop. I think our potters need to
adjust to this change - throw in their vision of the
non-classic tree's needed pot that will give it style unity.
That would not only make that tree individual, but its pot,
also. Potters get by too easily if they just replicate.
) -
Anyone that believes 1/4 of what I say is what I believe
is mistaken.
We have some great potters, wow, they could do it!
Lynn

Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


snip: Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists.

Bill,
Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW IT was
that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was "Traditional
with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they want
is....and, I doubt they do either.
Dale

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.

Yep! You know, I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall when Takagi's group
was picking out trees to go into some of the pots. I like them all, but, I
can imagine a lot of chin-scratching...."OK, we have these winner pots, now
how can we pot them so everyone will be happy"?
Dale


On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


snip: Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists.

Bill,
Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW IT was
that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was "Traditional
with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they want
is....and, I doubt they do either.
Dale

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.

Yep! You know, I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall when Takagi's group
was picking out trees to go into some of the pots. I like them all, but, I
can imagine a lot of chin-scratching...."OK, we have these winner pots, now
how can we pot them so everyone will be happy"?
Dale


On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


snip: Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists.

Bill,
Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW IT was
that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was "Traditional
with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they want
is....and, I doubt they do either.
Dale

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.

Yep! You know, I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall when Takagi's group
was picking out trees to go into some of the pots. I like them all, but, I
can imagine a lot of chin-scratching...."OK, we have these winner pots, now
how can we pot them so everyone will be happy"?
Dale


On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn

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That was sort of my point...that suddenly different equates to better.
In an art form such as bonsai where history and classical design seem to
be the overriding theme I'm a little troubled that the judging would
favor the exact opposite. I guess I'd rather see new interpretations of
classic shapes but maybe with more interesting glazes or variations of
shapes and glazes that still come out looking like bonsai pottery and
not some sort of nursery container or art gallery piece.

I'm all in favor of what some would call an "oddity" or "curiosity" in a
bonsai tree, but in many of those cases what brings it back to being an
interesting bonsai tree to me is an interesting and at least
semi-traditional pot. Put a classical tree in an odd pot and it seems
odd. Put an odd tree in an odd pot and very rarely does it work for me.
Again these are just my visual opinions.

I'm a car guy. When I see the grill of a 1978 BMW or the tail lights of
a 1967 Mustang I see their family resemblance in the cars of today. The
cars are more modern but the tradition and style are still there and
still recognizable. Certainly bonsai has a longer history and tradition
than cars.

We have managed to create an unending variety of bonsai trees in both
specie and style. Yet in almost every case there is an overriding or
underlying tradition in the shape and form of the tree that speaks of
bonsai. I'd like to see us do that in the pottery too.

Bil

== snip: Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
== pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is
the
== new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling
there
== is a better way to go that would still appeal to the
traditionalists.
==
== Bill,
== Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW
IT
== was
== that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was
== "Traditional
== with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they
want
== is....and, I doubt they do either.
== Dale

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As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots are
wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements
compete or do not compliment each other harmoniously - which is antithetical
to our art.

Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put on
by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
"innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.

How this is resolved is beyond me.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "dalecochoy"
Bill,
Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW IT was
that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was "Traditional
with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they want
is....and, I doubt they do either.
Dale

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Andy Rutledge wrote:

As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots are
wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements
compete or do not compliment each other harmoniously - which is antithetical
to our art.

Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put on
by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
"innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.

How this is resolved is beyond me.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

Maybe I'm getting to be an old fart ahead of my time, but I generally like a more
serene, classically styled pot. Something that doesn't compete with the tree.
Some of the pots that appear in these competitions, as Andy points out, are nice as
pieces of pottery but would look terrible with trees in them.

Just my $.02 worth.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots
are
wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements
compete or do not compliment each other harmoniously - which is
antithetical
to our art.

Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put
on
by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
"innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.

Andy, and others,
How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display at the national
arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design a pot for a
tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In other words,
the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was creating the
pot for. A couple of them did wind up getting other trees planted in them
at a later date after original pics were taken.
I was VERY interested in this. All of the pots were great technically
challenging works, although I didn't like a couple of the designs, and I
thought a few just in no way were made with planting a living tree in mind.
However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
Regards,
Dale

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