There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai
event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop.
Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected
(presumably in the wild) from the mountains.

This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that
the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and
geography).

I've seen more and more often the use of "yamadori" as merely a
"collected" tree, since comparatively few bonsai now are
collected in "mountains." Certainly none of mine are, few (if
any) of Gary Marchall's, etc.

I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too -- that
even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of
"yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree. The
expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and
particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from old
hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild
somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here -- having
escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida
woods.)

Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals
(thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way
yesterday it ain't right! ;-).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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At 08:13 AM 9/15/2003 -0400, Jim Lewis wrote:
There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai
event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop.
Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected
(presumably in the wild) from the mountains.

This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that
the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and
geography).

I've seen more and more often the use of "yamadori" as merely a
"collected" tree, since comparatively few bonsai now are
collected in "mountains." Certainly none of mine are, few (if
any) of Gary Marchall's, etc.

I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too -- that
even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of
"yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree. The
expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and
particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from old
hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild
somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here -- having
escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida
woods.)

Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals
(thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way
yesterday it ain't right! ;-).

I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line.

Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no plants left in
the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from the
wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So anything ever
cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the experts even
today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature.

Any person learning Japanese as a second language or being born here would
not get this meaning. Japanese has many subtle variations known by various
classes of people. I worked at a company where I purchased business cards
in English and Japanese for our 35 year old CEO. The Japanese type setter
chose what he thought the proper title, but is also meant honored
grandfather. After that we had a well bred very proper educated Japanese
woman do all our title translations.

Kitsune Miko

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I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too --
that
even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of
"yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree.
The
expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and
particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from
old
hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild
somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here --
having
escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida
woods.)

snip

I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line.

Prolly where I read it. ;-)


Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no
plants left in
the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from
the
wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So
anything ever
cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the
experts even
today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature.

Any person learning Japanese as a second language or being born
here would
not get this meaning. Japanese has many subtle variations
known by various
classes of people. I worked at a company where I purchased
business cards
in English and Japanese for our 35 year old CEO. The Japanese
type setter
chose what he thought the proper title, but is also meant
honored
grandfather. After that we had a well bred very proper
educated Japanese
woman do all our title translations.

Kitsune Miko


Of course, then there's Humpty Dumpty . . . "When _I_ use a word,
it means just what I choose it to mean --neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you _can_ make words mean
so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master."

;-)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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Kitsune Miko wrote:

snip

I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line.

Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no plants left in
the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from the
wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So anything ever
cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the experts even
today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature.

snip

Kitsune Miko


At the risk of contradicting someone who uses a Japanese name as a pseudonym ;0}, I
am quite sure that it is the other way around--this I got from two native
Japanese. "Yama" means "mountain." "Dori" is from the Japanese verb "to take."

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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"Jim Lewis" wrote in message
news:001101c37b97$e5b18380$72112cc7@pavilion...

Of course, then there's Humpty Dumpty . . . "When _I_ use a word,
it means just what I choose it to mean --neither more nor less."

But...
When _I_ say "yamadori", do _you_ know what I mean? ;-)

Jim Lewis wrote:

There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai
event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop.
Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected
(presumably in the wild) from the mountains.

This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that
the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and
geography).

snip

Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals
(thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way
yesterday it ain't right! ;-).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman


I guess I'm on the liberal end of the discussion. The only languages that don't
evolve are dead languages.

There are many examples in English of changes in word usage. This occurs
particularly when new technology introduces concepts into a culture which didn't
exist before. One example is the term used for operating an automobile--"drive,"
used originally to refer to the way in which animals are led. Another
automobile-related term is the term used in many states on rental cars and
limos--"livery," referring originally to the rental of horses and/or wagons.

In terms of collected trees, I have no problem using "yamadori" to refer to any
collected tree. I did a search in the archives for the term "suburban yamadori"
which I've used to refer to collected shrubs from people's yards, and found that
the earliest use of that term on the list is by David Bockman in 2000.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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I'm glad Craig said it first, but I was about to jump in. Having lived in
Japan in the middle 1950s, I still remember a little of the language, and
yama is a word that sticks, as in Fuji Yama.

Ed Castillo (wondering how hard this week's hurricane will hit the East
Coast)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:01 AM
Subject: [IBC] "yamadori" boxwood


Kitsune Miko wrote:

snip
Yama means picked, dori means mountain.
Kitsune Miko


At the risk of contradicting someone who uses a Japanese name as a
pseudonym ;0}, I
am quite sure that it is the other way around--this I got from two native
Japanese. "Yama" means "mountain." "Dori" is from the Japanese verb "to
take."

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

+++++

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EDMUND L CASTILLO wrote:

snip

Ed Castillo (wondering how hard this week's hurricane will hit the East
Coast)


Yep. Waiting it out here too. Last thing I heard was that it will hit the NJ
coast first tomorrow. I already have plans to bring trees inside and stash some
under their benches if it looks like it wil get nasty. Just have to wait and see.

Craig Cowing
NY
zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Kitsune described "yamadori" well and correctly, I think, in her BT Online
journal article:
--- BEGIN excerpt from BT Online ---
The complexity of Japanese as a language is illustrated in bonsai by many
phrases. One example is the use of the words "yamadori". Yama means
"mountain" and tori (dori) means "to take". This phrase was used in Japan
because any place wild was in the mountains. So all collecting of wild
material was from the mountains. Now the mountains in Japan have been
largely collected out, so the definition of yamadori as applied to bonsai
has changed to mean any tree or shrub that has been shaped by nature until
collected.
--- END excerpt from BT Online ---

She goes on to pose distinct questions on adoption of the term for material
that "in an urban setting ... was not likely naturally placed and not
totally at the mercy of the elements." This cannot be "yamadori" by the
above definition.

Kitsune also notes modern Western use of the term "yamadori-style" that
emulates 'wildness' through a design imposed upon it. Will the term stick?

Good grief, "suburban yamadori!" Dave & Craig toss in another wrinkle.

I've assumed _yamadori_ referred to material collected from the wild which
had characteristics (e.g., natural dwarfing, weather-enhanced arrangement of
elements or similar distinctions) recalling its wild source. I think that
"...-dori" also means "placement/arrangement" in Japanese (e.g. _hidori_ is
written "day" + "_dori_" and means "schedule"). Is a topped tree from the
local woodland _yamadori_ material if indistinguishable from cultivated
examples? Would you be disappointed to attend a workshop supplying
"collected material" that looked like nursery stock?

Best wishes,
Chris... C.Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA

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In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:
The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-,
French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small
trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when
"collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much
more accurate.

The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of other
look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear
English (or other) equivalents.
And . . . then . . . why call is bonsai? );-)

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
The Michael Persiano Bonsai Studio

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In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:
The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-,
French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small
trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when
"collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much
more accurate.

The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of other
look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear
English (or other) equivalents.
And . . . then . . . why call is bonsai? );-)

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
The Michael Persiano Bonsai Studio

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In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:
The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-,
French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small
trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when
"collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much
more accurate.

The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of
other
look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear
English (or other) equivalents.
And . . . then . . . why call it bonsai? );-)


Good question. Simple reasons are best, though, so. . . .
Perhaps it's because there's no good brief synonym.

Base, or roots do quite well for nebari. Small or tiny trees do
well for shohin or mame. And many other of the impressive words
we toss around have good, clear equivalents in whatever language
we use.

There isn't one for "bonsai." "Miniature/small artistic trees in
containers" is a bit long -- and contrived. If there were a
useful one- or two-word term that would do, I'd probably be a
proponent. ;-)

ANYthing to get us away from slavish imitation of Japanese trees
(and species) and to doing something that tends toward the more
original. Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of)
who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the
mold, has a good word for our sport. (?)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "I am a Bear
of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother Me." Winnie-the-Pooh

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of)
who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the
mold, has a good word for our sport. (?)
Jim Lewis
------------------

Actually, Nick just calls it the art of "banzai bush."

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of)
who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the
mold, has a good word for our sport. (?)
Jim Lewis
------------------

Actually, Nick just calls it the art of "banzai bush."

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

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Many, if not all, endeavors, hobbies, professions, etc., have their own
jargon. Learning and using the jargon ensures that everyone who is a part
of the activity knows what others are talking about. Why should we resist
using the jargon of bonsai, only to replace it with common terms that may or
may not clearly describe what we are talking about. Should doctors,
engineers, football players, musicians, etc., dump the jargon of their
respective endeavors? Or, should participants in the sport of bonsai learn
and use the jargon of bonsai?

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"

In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:
The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-,
French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small
trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when
"collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much
more accurate.

The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of
other
look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear
English (or other) equivalents.
And . . . then . . . why call it bonsai? );-)


Good question. Simple reasons are best, though, so. . . .
Perhaps it's because there's no good brief synonym.

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