Hi all;

I've been following the many threads regarding over wintering trees and am
somewhat confused. Here in central PA we've had spring like weather for the
past few weeks, but next weekend I'm going to prepare for the inevitable low
temps and accumulation of white stuff.

I fully understand (thanks Nina) that photosynthesis ceases at or near
freezing, and that trees don't need light during dormancy. However, the
"mulching" process still confuses me.
I'm assuming that most people bury their trees into their gardens, then
mound some form of mulch up to the first branch, or in some cases,
completely cover the tree.
Now here's where I get confused.... What function does this mulching process
perform?

Here in Central PA, in a typical winter, the ground freezes well below the
depth of the pots, and I'm assuming, well below the potted roots. Mulch
obviously doesn't keep the roots from freezing, so what function does it
perform other than keeping the roots from drying out ??

I've brought my trees into an unheated greenhouse which receives partial
sunlight (one hour/day). Should I still cover the pots in some manner?


Mark Hill - Harrisburg PA, Zone 6

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However, the
"mulching" process still confuses me.

Mulch doesn't stop the ground from freezing; it prevents the ground from *thawing*. The greatest stress on both trees and pots is irregular weather when the ground continually freezes and thaws. Mulch acts as a buffer. Snow will do the same thing, if yo
u are lucky enough (nyah nyah Jim) to live where you get a continuous blanket of snow. Both mulch and snow will buffer the ground from going too much BELOW freezing, because a sudden severe cold snap can kill inadequately protected roots.

A real cold-frame acts on the same principle: the trees are placed in a hole deep enough that the ground stays frozen, but does not get much colder than freezing, or much above freezing.

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Nina Shishkoff wrote:

However, the
"mulching" process still confuses me.

Mulch doesn't stop the ground from freezing; it prevents the ground from *thawing*. The greatest stress on both trees and pots is irregular weather when the ground continually freezes and thaws. Mulch acts as a buffer. Snow will do the same thing, if
you are lucky enough (nyah nyah Jim) to live where you get a continuous blanket of snow. Both mulch and snow will buffer the ground from going too much BELOW freezing, because a sudden severe cold snap can kill inadequately protected roots.

snip

Nina has it exactly right. Mulching evens out the highs and lows of temperatures. It can sometimes get warm on a sunny winter day, and a tree in a pot exposed to the elements could begin to thaw out.

Snow is another benefit of winter. It does the same thing as mulch, by insulating the ground and whatever is in it, and helping to moderate the highs and lows. When I lived in Maine, we would sometimes have what the old-timers called an "open winter," wi
th no snow. Let me tell you, the ground would freeze far deeper than it did if there were snow on the ground, sometimes as deep as three feet. That's a lot of frost. If it were to snow, especially if the snow had fallen early enough, like
November, the ground would be more insulated because it had not had a chance to freeze very deeply. During an open winter people would have problems with their wells, pipes would freeze, in the late winter the ground would heave from the excessive frost i
n the ground, and we'd have a mud season that was legendary.

Snow also protects evergreens from windburn. It's a great thing. I leave my trees open to the elements so snow will build up around them. They are in the front of the house, between a retaining wall and the foundation so there's protection from wind.
The snow slides off the roof and fills the area up, and when I'm shoveling the sidwalk I shovel the snow right in. I like to keep the trees completely buried in snow if at all possible.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Thanks (as usual) Nina and Craig .... the process seems much clearer now.
I was planning on over-wintering my trees in an unheated greenhouse, but I'm
sure that trees left on the benches will freeze and thaw with the small
amount of sunlight they receive every day.
As much as I hate to, I guess I'd better bury my trees outside in a shaded
area between the house and fence where they'll get almost no sunlight and
mounds of snow.

I sure hope this works ..... the thought of loosing my new creations scares
me death!!

Mark
(reluctant newbie!!)

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I sure hope this works ..... the thought of loosing my new creations scares
me death!!

Mark

It works wonderfully, 9 years out of 10. Last winter, was for me, the one out of 10 when it doesn't; we had a very severe, snowless winter and I lost a few half-hardy trees like Poncirus and Lagerstroemia (crape myrtle). But everything that I have that i
s appropropriate to the climate did fine. It's nature's way of telling me to use native plants!

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Mark:
I believe the best place would be on the north side of the house, if
that is possible.... I use my garage for all of my trees that are not
tropical or sub tropical. I lay a bunch of cinderblocks in a doule row
on the floor in an inverted "u" shape. I place my trees in between the
cinder blocks and cover with mulch. Weekly, I can then walk in between
the double row of blocks and check to see if they need watering. Last
Winter, which was unusually severe, I watered twice the whole winter.

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48


Mark Hill wrote:

Thanks (as usual) Nina and Craig .... the process seems much clearer now.
I was planning on over-wintering my trees in an unheated greenhouse, but I'm
sure that trees left on the benches will freeze and thaw with the small
amount of sunlight they receive every day.
As much as I hate to, I guess I'd better bury my trees outside in a shaded
area between the house and fence where they'll get almost no sunlight and
mounds of snow.

I sure hope this works ..... the thought of loosing my new creations scares
me death!!

Mark
(reluctant newbie!!)






************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Mark Hill wrote:

Thanks (as usual) Nina and Craig .... the process seems much clearer now.
I was planning on over-wintering my trees in an unheated greenhouse, but I'm
sure that trees left on the benches will freeze and thaw with the small
amount of sunlight they receive every day.
As much as I hate to, I guess I'd better bury my trees outside in a shaded
area between the house and fence where they'll get almost no sunlight and
mounds of snow.


Think of it as a time to rest from working on your hardy trees. Having them out of
sight for a few months will give you a new perspective in the spring. They'll be
there waiting for you.


I sure hope this works ..... the thought of loosing my new creations scares
me death!!

Mark
(reluctant newbie!!)

The only way you'd lose them would be by going against the laws of nature.
Over-wintering them this way corresponds with they way the trees would live in
their native environment. You won't lose them. The main thing is mulch, bury them
in snow, and provide protection from the wind.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37




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++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Thanks for the encouragement Nina.
Most of my trees are maples (Bloodgood), Hinoki Cyprus, junipers (Chinensis)
or pines (Mugho).
I assume these critters will withstand the cold here in central PA.
I'll reluctantly bury/mulch them this weekend.
:-(

I have a couple of Ficus that'll remain indoors over the winter in well
light, south facing windows.
I also have a large Elm (Ulmus Parvafolia ??) that I'm keeping inside
because I was forced to repot it in the late summer.
It was dropping yellow leaves like crazy. When I finally checked the roots
in September, I found that a great deal of the roots where rotting because
of the poor soil, drainage and over watering. Since repotting, it has
produced lots of new leaves that seem very happy. I haven't seen a yellow
leaf since. I'm reluctant to let it suffer through a winter because of the
late repotting, weak root system and lack of leaves.


Thanks for your continued help.
Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Nina Shishkoff ]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 10:45 AM
To: Mark Hill;
Subject: [IBC] Why Mulch ??

I sure hope this works ..... the thought of loosing my new creations
scares
me death!!

Mark

It works wonderfully, 9 years out of 10. Last winter, was for me, the one
out of 10 when it doesn't; we had a very severe, snowless winter and I lost
a few half-hardy trees like Poncirus and Lagerstroemia (crape myrtle). But
everything that I have that is appropropriate to the climate did fine. It's
nature's way of telling me to use native plants!

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Thanks Craig.

It seems difficult to leave your "babies" outside in the snow bank, when
you've devoted so much time and effort to them all spring/summer.

I guess this is where the "tough love" part comes in !!

My next challenge will be to resist over-watering them during the winter
months.


Mark
(I sure hope they're still happy in the spring!)

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cowing ]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 11:49 AM
To: Mark Hill
Cc:
Subject: [IBC] Why Mulch ??


Think of it as a time to rest from working on your hardy trees. Having them
out of
sight for a few months will give you a new perspective in the spring.
They'll be
there waiting for you.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Thanks Carl.

Creating a U shaped retaining wall sounds like a good idea.
The only problem is that most of my winter winds come from the north. My
trees would obviously need to be protected from the winds.
I guess I could build a retaining wall, stick my trees into the ground,
mulch like crazy, then wait for the snow to fill the void.

Winter is obviously the scariest part of bonsai !!

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Carl L Rosner
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 10:53 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Why Mulch ??

Mark:
I believe the best place would be on the north side of the house, if
that is possible.... I use my garage for all of my trees that are not
tropical or sub tropical. I lay a bunch of cinderblocks in a doule row
on the floor in an inverted "u" shape. I place my trees in between the
cinder blocks and cover with mulch. Weekly, I can then walk in between
the double row of blocks and check to see if they need watering. Last
Winter, which was unusually severe, I watered twice the whole winter.

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...page&artistid=
0000006848
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja..._page&artistid
=0000006848

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Mark,

I'm not sure that the A. palmatum - Bloodgood - will survive being outdoors. Other's in YOUR area certainly know better, but I protect mine -here- from excessively long cold spells, a phrase which here means, more that a few days in the mid to upper 20's
. I'd freak out if I had to leave them in the snow.

What say you frigid folk?
Regards,
Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hill
To:
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 8:05 AM
Subject: [IBC] Why Mulch ??


Thanks for the encouragement Nina.
Most of my trees are maples (Bloodgood), Hinoki Cyprus, junipers (Chinensis)
or pines (Mugho).
I assume these critters will withstand the cold here in central PA.
I'll reluctantly bury/mulch them this weekend.
:-(

SNIP

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Mark Hill wrote:

Thanks Craig.

It seems difficult to leave your "babies" outside in the snow bank, when
you've devoted so much time and effort to them all spring/summer.

At first, yes, but once you get accustomed to the cycles of the seasons it isn't
hard.


I guess this is where the "tough love" part comes in !!


I guess it isn't so much that. It's trusting nature.


My next challenge will be to resist over-watering them during the winter
months.


That's easy. Unless you have an unusually warm winter with temperatures always
above freezing, you won't have to water at all. Once the soil freezes in the pot
and stays frozen you're all set for spring.


Mark
(I sure hope they're still happy in the spring!)


They'll be fine.

Craig Cowing
NY
zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Shelly Hurd wrote:

Mark,

I'm not sure that the A. palmatum - Bloodgood - will survive being outdoors.

Snip


What say you frigid folk?
Regards,
Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9



Nope.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Shelly / Craig;

Are you suggesting I leave the Bloodgood indoors ?
Hmmmmm .....
I started a dozen trees from seeds this spring from a parent tree in my
mothers front yard.
Her tree is a multi-trunk that's 25 feet tall.
30 years ago she was told it was a Bloodgood, and from my research, it
certainly looks like one.
Maybe it's the seedlings that can't survive the cold.
This would account for the fact that none of her garden seedlings have ever
survived the winter.

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Craig Cowing
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 12:41 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Why Mulch ??

Craig wrote:

Nope.

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Thanks for the encouragement Craig.
I'll stick them in the ground and hold my breath !!

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Craig Cowing
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 12:39 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Why Mulch ??

Craig wrote:

They'll be fine.

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++