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Old 18-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Craig Cowing
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Andy Rutledge wrote:

Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the
medium.


I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I
have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees
I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have
not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations
as living material.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I
understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of
living material, in a sense, life itself.

BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he
does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done
nothing."

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #32   Report Post  
Old 18-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Craig Cowing
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Andy Rutledge wrote:

Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the
medium.


I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I
have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees
I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have
not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations
as living material.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I
understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of
living material, in a sense, life itself.

BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he
does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done
nothing."

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #33   Report Post  
Old 18-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Marty Haber
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our
relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times.
Respectfully yours,
Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)


Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In

other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely

the
medium.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Haber"
Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone
appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting
trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss

proposition.
We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it

should
behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating
members' improvements upon improvements.
I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we

ought
to add a heaping portion of humility to our work.
Marty.



************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #34   Report Post  
Old 18-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Marty Haber
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our
relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times.
Respectfully yours,
Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)


Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In

other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely

the
medium.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Haber"
Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone
appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting
trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss

proposition.
We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it

should
behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating
members' improvements upon improvements.
I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we

ought
to add a heaping portion of humility to our work.
Marty.



************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #35   Report Post  
Old 18-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Marty Haber
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our
relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times.
Respectfully yours,
Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)


Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In

other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely

the
medium.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Haber"
Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone
appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting
trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss

proposition.
We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it

should
behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating
members' improvements upon improvements.
I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we

ought
to add a heaping portion of humility to our work.
Marty.



************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


  #36   Report Post  
Old 18-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Marty Haber
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our
relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times.
Respectfully yours,
Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)


Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In

other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely

the
medium.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Haber"
Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone
appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting
trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss

proposition.
We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it

should
behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating
members' improvements upon improvements.
I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we

ought
to add a heaping portion of humility to our work.
Marty.



************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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[IBC] FW: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" Marty Haber Bonsai 0 18-12-2003 02:27 AM
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