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Old 06-12-2003, 08:38 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

A while ago we had a brief discussion of this book. Peter A. was
interested in its allegations of ties between Zen and bonsai
which he, after extensive study has failed to discover, and I
after a cursory look, tend to agree.

Anyway, my local Barnes and Noble had a copy and since the price
is reasonably reasonable I bought it.

I don't know the ethnicity of the author, Chye Tan, but he lives
in The Netherlands and that country has a very long history with
S.E. Asia (Indonesia).

Anyway, the book opens with 15-16 pages of a "Zen Bonsai"
gallery, with a short explanation of the "Zen Qualities" in the
caption for each tree. For a massive (and very nice) Ficus
religiosa, the "Zen Quality" was: "The sturdy, ribbed trunk is
riddled with dimpled depressions and clefts. It displays an
imposing grandeur, which signifies righteousness."

The pictured bonsai are all quite acceptable specimens; several
are very nice. The "Zen Qualities" of a very likeable, slender,
upright Chamaecyparis was: "The entrancing, drooping foliage of a
weeping tree evokes melancholy as well as enchantment."

In a chapter expounding on the relationship of Zen and bonsai,
the author notes the amount that Zen "borrowed" (or was given)
from Taoist philosophy as it was developing in China. He
continues, noting that after Zen Buddhism reached Japan, "(I)t
had a profound effect on painting, calligraphy, poetry, and the
tea ceremony, bringing with it an emphasis on simplicity and
austerity, subtlety, and tranquility. Garden design, ikebana
(the art of flower arrangement) and bonsai also evolved under its
influence."

I have found one other reference to Zen and Bonsai in Beasley's
"The Japanese Experience." However, neither this author nor
Beasley provide any references for the statement.

Anyway, in this book, the Zen references are more in the line of
"armchair Zen" than anything particularly philosophical (at least
in MY opinion).

Is the book worth the $25 I spent on it? I think so. Just.
There's more on design and less on the "how-to" basics that are
covered endlessly in other books (although how-to isn't ignored
here). Since design is less frequently (or well) covered
elsewhere in bonsai literature, that makes this book worthwhile.

FWIW, _I_ believe that the roots of bonsai (or, rather,
decorative trees grown in pots) are much more likely to rest in
Taoism than in Buddhism. However, there are so many close ties
between Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism and they're all so
long ago and so tied up in myth, who can know? Taoism, of
course, pre-dates either of the others.

Peter, if you ever see the book I would really like to hear your
impression.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The Great
Tao flows everywhere. Its course can go left or right. The ten
thousand things depend on it for growth, and it does not refuse
them. - From the "Tao-te Ching"

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Old 08-12-2003, 10:11 PM
Craig Cowing
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Jim Lewis wrote:

A while ago we had a brief discussion of this book. Peter A. was
interested in its allegations of ties between Zen and bonsai
which he, after extensive study has failed to discover, and I
after a cursory look, tend to agree.

snip


Anyway, in this book, the Zen references are more in the line of
"armchair Zen" than anything particularly philosophical (at least
in MY opinion)


snip

FWIW, _I_ believe that the roots of bonsai (or, rather,
decorative trees grown in pots) are much more likely to rest in
Taoism than in Buddhism. However, there are so many close ties
between Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism and they're all so
long ago and so tied up in myth, who can know? Taoism, of
course, pre-dates either of the others.

Peter, if you ever see the book I would really like to hear your
impression.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL snip


Just to throw my $.02 in. I haven't read the book, although I'm considering buying
it. In terms of theorigins of bonsai, I'm interested in this too, in particular
the philosophical or religious factors in the art's origin. Having said that, I'm
open to the possibility that the first people to take naturally dwarfed trees and
put them in pots may have simply done so because they like them, and nothing more
than that.

It is one thing to state that a particular philosophy or intellectual framework was
definitely a root of of bonsai. Since I haven't seen Tan's book I can't say, but
I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone applying their own particular mindset to
bonsai. It is a way of making it their own, much as I find a lot of connections
between bonsai and my own liberal Christian perspective, although bonsai obviously
has no historical connections to Christianity.

Something that has occurred to me too in terms of bonsai is that it seems that the
art in it's more refined state actually came after the re-connection of Japan with
the rest of the world, in fact in the last century. So, although we may think of
bonsai as originating in the misty past, could we not say that the art as presently
practiced both in the West and Japan is really an amalgam of Eastern and Western
elements?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Old 08-12-2003, 10:41 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)


Just to throw my $.02 in. I haven't read the book, although

I'm considering buying
it. In terms of theorigins of bonsai, I'm interested in this

too, in particular
the philosophical or religious factors in the art's origin.

Having said that, I'm
open to the possibility that the first people to take naturally

dwarfed trees and
put them in pots may have simply done so because they like

them, and nothing more
than that.


Undoubtedly. Let's face it, usually we only see the
"significance" in what we do well after the fact; we invent it
after the fact, actually. Still, you had to have a specific
mindset to carefully dig up a tree and plant it in a pot, so it
was likely the intellectuals (literati??) who first took the
step. (Assuming af course, that the "roots" of bonsai don't come
from plants kept in pots for medicinal purposes -- again by the
thinking class of people who may have noticed that the rosemary
they kept for a poultice actually looked nice in a pot).

snip


Something that has occurred to me too in terms of bonsai is

that it seems that the
art in it's more refined state actually came after the

re-connection of Japan with
the rest of the world, in fact in the last century. So,

although we may think of
bonsai as originating in the misty past, could we not say that

the art as presently
practiced both in the West and Japan is really an amalgam of

Eastern and Western
elements?


As I write this, NPR's Talk of the Nation is talking about the
Samurai class in Japan.

But no. I don't think there was much "western" in the refinement
of bonsai in Japan. Just before and during the arrival of
Perry's ships in Tokyo Bay, there suddenly developed both a
leisure class and a mercantile class in Japan. Between them,
they had leisure time for the arts -- of various kinds, including
bonsai. This was the period that bonsai had its first flowering
in Japan. Before this it was almost exclusively a hobby of the
Diamyo class (dukes and barons, in European terms).

Perhaps in the 20th Century, the west has started to influence
Japanese bonsai, but I'm not even sure about that.

Where's Peter?

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only to the
white man was nature a wilderness -- Luther Standing Bear
(Ogallala Sioux Chief)

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Old 10-12-2003, 11:02 PM
Chris Cochrane
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Hi Jim.

The history of bonsai will never be written without some distortion. You noted,
FWIW, _I_ believe that the roots of bonsai (or, rather,
decorative trees grown in pots) are much more likely to rest in
Taoism than in Buddhism. However, there are so many close ties
between Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism and they're all so
long ago and so tied up in myth, who can know? Taoism, of
course, pre-dates either of the others.


Daoism doesn't pre-date Confucianism or Buddhism-- the historical founders lived in the same period (crossing the sixth & fifth centuries BCE), though Buddhism didn't arrive in China until later & Zen Buddhism, later still. By the time their ideas influen
ced potted tree culture, Confucian moralists & Daoist practicing the Way of Celestial Masters were vying for legitimacy in ancient aristocratic courts. A syncratic mix of ideals promoted by both of these groups (as well as by more philosophical Daoists f
ollowing the Zhangzi text assembled by Guo Xiang ~ 300 CE) and their adoption of Buddhist teachings as subsets of their own understanding were related by writers including Tao Yuan Ming (a.k.a., Tao Qian) in the fourth century CE.

Chinese authors tend to credit Tao Yuan Ming (b. between 365 & 372, d.427) cultivating chrysanthemums as the first to write about pot cultivation as "penjing" meaning "bonsai." Japanese authors (e.g., Yuji Yoshimura), if they reference him at all, tend t
o reference Tao Yuan Ming's potted plants as flower cultivation called "penjing," which was then not the same as a potted tree or landscape scene. Maggie Bickford notes Tao Yuan Ming was the first to relate plum cultivation with scholars, and an ancient p
roverb she relates notes that an entire worlds can be seen in a single plum blossom. This isn't what we mean today by "bonsai," but support or negation of Tao Yuan Ming as an early cultivator of landscape allusion using potted plants is easy to draw. He
also:
1. wrote the important epic poem _Peach Blossom Spring_ which helped promulgate the idea of Daoist "cave heavens" that is essential to scholar rock appreciation,
2. became acknowledged (including among Japanese literati) as the no-string _qin_ player (who didn't need the encumbrance of notes actually being plucked to 'hear' an instrument's music)-- _qin_ listening is the source of the aesthetic term for "sound/no s
ound" that has been applied to suseki aesthetics as "reverberation" or _yoin_,
3. quit 5 civil posts under corrupt administrations thus becoming an early model for pursuing a rustic literati lifestyle as an alternative to pursuing proper Confucian civil service for following generations of scholars.

Confucianism was the earliest of these "influences" to gain prominence among China's elite. Buddhism was then introduced to Chinese courts before Daoism became institutionalized (by Zhang ling in the mid 2nd century) & further popularized with the _Zhangz
i_ text (assembled in the early 4th century). Zen sect Buddhism enters China later (in the early 6th century).

The intertwined history of spiritual pursuit & political legitimacy suggest philosophical trends parrallel to development of bonsai if not partially driving it. An ancient leisurely class could afford to pursue potted plant culture. Tao Yuan Ming compose
d simple poems when ornate poetry was fashionable. He mocked himself as a poor & inept scholar struggling to lead the bucolic life of a peasant. He praised Confucian ideals and explored Taoist and Buddhist concepts while expressing contentment in readin
g, music, wine and potted chrysanthemums.

Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA


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Old 11-12-2003, 01:32 AM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Daoism doesn't pre-date Confucianism or Buddhism-- the historical
founders lived in the same period (crossing the sixth & fifth
centuries BCE), though Buddhism didn't arrive in China until
later & Zen Buddhism, later still.

You are right of course, tho I understand that Lao Tzu was a bit
older and had been teaching (confusing?) people for some time
when Confucious came on the scene. My reading indicated, BTW,
that Confucious was one of those who didn't understand anything
that Lao-Tse said. He apparently mentioned his confusion to one
of his followers after the two men had met.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only to the
white man was nature a wilderness -- Luther Standing Bear
(Ogallala Sioux Chief)

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Old 12-12-2003, 12:33 AM
Chris Cochrane
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Hi Jim.

You report Lao-tzu being a predecessor to (perhaps even teaching) Confucius while I think evidence is mostly contrary to that. You note:
... I understand that Lao Tzu was a bit older and had been
teaching (confusing?) people for some time when Confucius
came on the scene.

Lao-tzu's birth is unknown; Confucius's birth was 551 B.C.E.. I've seen one source credit Lao-tzu as nine years older, but dates are widely spread from 600 B.C.E. forward. Many deny him as an historical figure. Daoist claimed Lao-tzu taught Confucius long
after Confucius's death. Daoist also claimed Buddhism was a sect arising from Daoist teaching... :-)

Our friend Lynn wrote privately re' Chinese Daoism as my preference for the origin. It truly is not! Daoism took many twists and turns... and its greatest impact on bonsai is perhaps its influence on Japanese literati (especially in the late 18th through
the 19th century) who were vying with Japanese nativist learning scholars for dominance in arts and literary pursuits. Daoist influence on bonsai is as largely written in Japanese history as in Chinese history. It is more easily followed in my studies
by references to stone/suiseki appreciation that was often shared by the same enthusiasts.

My reading indicated, BTW, that Confucius was one of those
who didn't understand anything that Lao-Tse said. He apparently
mentioned his confusion to one of his followers after the two men
had met.

I'd appreciate learning more, Jim. Daoist religion leaves me confused, and I too often jump to philosophical Daoism-- the perfected _zhenren_ who who wanders free from the conventions of culture and society as described in the _Zhangzi_. Laotzu's _Dao
De Jing_ (admittedly no copy exist from Laotzu's reputed lifetime) notes, "The extensively learned do not really know (Chapter 81)." Is this not a reflecting back on the influential _Analects_ of Confucius (the core of which is also attributed to 2nd gene
ration disciples)?

One web resource http://www.csudh.edu/phenom_studies/...taoteching.htm notes:
Recent philological studies are more inclined to suggest that
_Tao Te Ching_ is written perhaps rather in the 4th or the 3rd
century B.C. (later than Confucius) and is maybe not written by
one author, but from many different origins including certain
proverbs which were very likely prevalent around the time.


This stance is supported by debate over which _Dao De Jing_ texts are authentic to an early source. The earliest edition now is the Guodian (see www.archaeology.org/9811/newsbriefs/laozi.html & http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...63/104-6315758
-3573561). From the Amazon book review of Henrick's text on the Guodian edition of the _Dao De Jing_:
it provides the most conclusive evidence to date that
the text was the work of multiple authors and editors
over hundreds of years, rather than the achievement
of a single individual writing during the time of
Confucius.


Another http://homepages.utoledo.edu/enelson...jingreview.htm notes in reviewing _Laozi, Dao De Jing: A Philosophical Translation_ by Ames and Hall:
... the emergence of the _Dao De Jing_ as a radical and
powerful alternative vision in an epoch-the Warring States
Period (403-221 BCE)-of conflict and uncertainty.

... The Chinese cosmology of this period, both Daoist and
Confucian, sees all relations as familial. The person is thus
inherently constituted in a web of relations in which she has
a unique place and position. The primary familial metaphor
of _ru_ or Confucian thought is that of father and filial son, but
mother and child take precedence in early Daoism (23). This
explains the repeated appeals to the feminine (Ddj 5, 10, 28,
61), the maternal (Ddj 1, 20, 25, 28, 51, 52, 59), and the
child-like (Ddj 10, 20, 28, 49, 52, 55) in the _Dao De Jing_--
that is, to the creative and fecund, the receptive and affirming,
the natural and the spontaneous.

Once again, it seems the _Dao De Jing_ offers a response (and an explicit alternative) to the priority of Confucian relationships.

In short, the liklihood of Lao-tzu teaching Confucius seems less likely than that _Dao De Jing_ reflects a response to earlier Confucian teaching and influence.

FWIW, in Jensen's _ Manufacturing Confucianism: Chinese Traditions & Universal Civilization_, he credits the Jesuits with 'creating' Confucianism. Thus, a case can (and has) been forcefully presented to credit elite literati scholar tradition (_ru_) as se
parate from strong influence by Confucius.

History sometimes appears up-for-grabs, and bonsai history has been sorely ill-defined. Deborah Koreshoff's book draws more together than most histories available in English, but unfortunately its depth is shallow. I can readily see political correctnes
s affecting Hideo Marushima's history regarding modern bonsai in _Classic Bonsai of Japan_.

Daoism, Buddhism and folklore as well as Confucianism are important in understanding bonsai culture... also Asian literary and art history. Modern Daoism like the popular philosophical Zen promoted internationally is far removed from the historical reali
ty.

As you are, I am very anxious to see Peter Aradi's thoughts set down.

Where effective action arises from habitual practice, I think Buddhism & bonsai share a perspective unanticipated in Daoism. The practice of bonsai also shares perspective with martial arts practice. I recall the phrase _ichi nyo_ which is translated "on
e & inseparable." For Zen's Soto sect founder Dogen, _ichi nyo_ describes 2 of his 7 principles:
- 1st principle: _Shu sho ichi nyo_ "Practice (_shugyo_ "rigorous practice"-- including _zazen_) & enlightenment (_satori_ ) are one & inseperable."
- 7th principle: _Shin jin (shin?) ichi nyo_ "Body & spirit are one & inseperable."
Among martial arts, _ichi nyo_ is noted in:
- Taekwando-- _Chi gyo ichi nyo_ "Knowledge & doing are one & inseparable."
- Shorinji karate-- _Ken zen ichi nyo_ "Body & mind are one & inseparable."

Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA

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Old 12-12-2003, 01:32 AM
Chris Cochrane
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 7:00 PM
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)


Daoism doesn't pre-date Confucianism or Buddhism-- the historical
founders lived in the same period (crossing the sixth & fifth
centuries BCE), though Buddhism didn't arrive in China until
later & Zen Buddhism, later still.

You are right of course, tho I understand that Lao Tzu was a bit
older and had been teaching (confusing?) people for some time
when Confucious came on the scene. My reading indicated, BTW,
that Confucious was one of those who didn't understand anything
that Lao-Tse said. He apparently mentioned his confusion to one
of his followers after the two men had met.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only to the
white man was nature a wilderness -- Luther Standing Bear
(Ogallala Sioux Chief)


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****
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****
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Old 12-12-2003, 03:12 AM
Lynn Boyd
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

From: Chris Cochrane
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen

and nature" (redux)

Hi Jim.

(snipped
Our friend Lynn wrote privately re' Chinese Daoism as my preference for

the origin. It truly is not! Daoism took many twists and turns... and
its greatest
impact on bonsai is perhaps its influence on Japanese literati (especially

in the late 18th through the 19th century) who were vying with Japanese
nativist learning scholars for dominance in arts and literary pursuits.
Daoist influence on bonsai is as largely written in Japanese history as in
Chinese history. It is more easily followed in my studies by references to
stone/suiseki appreciation that was often shared by the same enthusiasts.
----------------

Chris and Jim -
I have a casual suspect when I hear of anything art related to
an era or religion or philosophy. The reason is we study art so often at
moments of its change or turbulence. If there is in an era a rebellious or
controversial state of a religious or philosophical nature I imagine
there are artists quick to find it subject for painting, music,or art as a
whole, or at least quick to grab an Effect from it.
Taoism, I, in my ignorance think that it is a nature-guided belief
system, fairly stable and always seems appealing. Daoism I imagine to be
less easy to grasp as steadily, and could have attracted arts for that
reason. Sometimes I look for the artists in defining a period before
other parts of a culture because they have a history of making some kind of
presentation of rebelliousness or innovation when anything is "stirring."
I do look upon whatever the literati presented with the most
conviction , very firm in some manner. They represent some kind of
classicism to me.
This is all evidence of my shady scholarship, and my shifty look at
history which has so many zooms in its camera.
Lynn





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Old 12-12-2003, 04:33 AM
Jim Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

From: Chris Cochrane
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the

Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)

Hi Jim.

(snipped
Our friend Lynn wrote privately re' Chinese Daoism as my

preference for
the origin. It truly is not! Daoism took many twists and

turns... and
its greatest
impact on bonsai is perhaps its influence on Japanese literati

(especially
in the late 18th through the 19th century) who were vying with

Japanese
nativist learning scholars for dominance in arts and literary

pursuits.
Daoist influence on bonsai is as largely written in Japanese

history as in
Chinese history. It is more easily followed in my studies by

references to
stone/suiseki appreciation that was often shared by the same

enthusiasts.
----------------
From Lynn


Chris and Jim -
I have a casual suspect when I hear of anything art

related to
an era or religion or philosophy. The reason is we study art

so often at
moments of its change or turbulence. If there is in an era a

rebellious or
controversial state of a religious or philosophical nature I

imagine
there are artists quick to find it subject for painting,

music,or art as a
whole, or at least quick to grab an Effect from it.
Taoism, I, in my ignorance think that it is a nature-guided

belief
system, fairly stable and always seems appealing. Daoism I

imagine to be
less easy to grasp as steadily, and could have attracted arts

for that
reason. Sometimes I look for the artists in defining a period

before
other parts of a culture because they have a history of making

some kind of
presentation of rebelliousness or innovation when anything is

"stirring."
I do look upon whatever the literati presented with the

most
conviction , very firm in some manner. They represent some

kind of
classicism to me.
This is all evidence of my shady scholarship, and my shifty

look at
history which has so many zooms in its camera.
Lynn


Well, I got thoroughly (and enjoyably) lost between these two
messages. ;-)

I am neither a Chinese scholar, nor an expert in philosophy, but
I do read, and I just finished a course at Florida State on early
Chinese history that spent a lot of time on the early
philosophies that had (and continue to have) a strong impact on
Chinese life. I've also be doing a good deal of Daoist reading
of late. And, I might add, been thoroughly confused and
perplexed in the process -- especially the first time through.
It is a very helpful philosophy to read when you are having
trouble falling asleep. ;-)

I had gotten the impression from my class and from brief
discussion in some of the Daoist books that there was a larger
discrepancy between Lao-Tse's and Confucius's age than 9 years,
and that Lao-Tse was an old man when visited by a much younger
Confucius. But both are so far back in time that neither is, of
a certainty, a real, single person, and may each be a
conglomerate of several peripatetic philosophers who may have
wandered the Chinese hinterland in the 7th and 6th Centuries BP.

Neither had I understood that Daoist writings came so long after
Lao-Tse's "death." Though, it is fairly well established that
Confucius's words were collected/compiled/? 2 or 3 hundred years
after _his_ death.

Notwithstanding all this, and straining to pull this topic back
to bonsai, it would seem to me that Daoist philosophy is more
likely to giver rise to a potted-tree art than the quite
pragmatic Confucian. The literati, while arising and thriving in
early Confucian China, seem to me to lean more toward Daoist
thought than pure Confucian. But that may just be MY
"confusion."

Anyway, we've beaten this fairly off-topic dead horse to a pulp,
and digressed SIGNIFICANTLY from the Zen-ness of bonsai. On that
topic, I agree with whoever it was that said, if you want to find
Zen in bonsai, have at it. Me? I just find it fun.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Who just
bought and installed a new, much larger, monitor and can SEE
again!

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Old 17-12-2003, 06:32 PM
p.aradi
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Chris:

I was away for most of this thread and missed all, but your last note.
Consequently I would rather not enter the discussion in detail. However,
since I can't keep my mouth shut, - an old problem of mine, - let me just
add that the experiences and readings of this last year reinforced my
belief that Buddhism greatly influenced and interacted with Japanese
stone appreciation and suiseki, while had only general, and arguably
minimal,
influence on the aesthetic of bonsai.

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma

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Old 17-12-2003, 09:09 PM
Lynn Boyd
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Hi Peter,
Re yours to Chris,

Chris:
I was away for most of this thread and missed all, but your last note.
Consequently I would rather not enter the discussion in detail.


Hi Peter:
While we hope to hear from Chris I am tempted to say re your msg:

However,
since I can't keep my mouth shut, - an old problem of mine, -


That problem is not yours alone - mind if I share??

let me just
add that the experiences and readings of this last year reinforced my
belief that Buddhism greatly influenced and interacted with Japanese
stone appreciation and suiseki, while had only general, and arguably
minimal,
influence on the aesthetic of bonsai.
Cheers.
Peter Aradi


Peter, I really like the separation you make between an
aesthetic of bonsai and an interaction with the stone, suiseki
appreciation. I think Chris does this, too. I can see that a great deal of
difference exists between these two forms of concentration and interest in
the past possibly.
I don't know how you arrived at this, but I am guessing that
bonsai 's evolving from the planted-plant experience from past ages came
from a more pragmatic and less metaphoric basis, while stones have been
found in the past to have a much more symbolic and/or imaginative or
transcending place in man's interest.
I hope you are finding some direction that is re-newing to your
search.
Lynn

Lynn Boyd
Zone 7-8, Willamette Valley, Oregon

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Old 17-12-2003, 09:33 PM
Marty Haber
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:70342

Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone
appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting
trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition.
We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should
behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating
members' improvements upon improvements.
I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought
to add a heaping portion of humility to our work.
Marty.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:42 PM
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen
and nature" (redux)

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Old 17-12-2003, 10:38 PM
p.aradi
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Chris, Jim, Lynn, et all.

First of all thank you Chris for the detailed listing of the postings.
Interestingly enough during this exchange I was sequestered away
in a Zen Buddhist retreat, cut away from TV, radio, newspapers,
magazines, telephones, the Internet, etc., I think you get the
picture. It was silent meditation and the usual religious practice.
It was great.

After reading the thread, I ordered the book through Amazon.com.
Probably it will arrive after Christmas and will take a day or two to
read it. When finished reading it, I will post my comments on the
book and the thread for anyone who is still interested in the subject..

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma

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Old 17-12-2003, 11:36 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Chris, Jim, Lynn, et all.

First of all thank you Chris for the detailed listing of the

postings.
Interestingly enough during this exchange I was sequestered

away
in a Zen Buddhist retreat, cut away from TV, radio, newspapers,
magazines, telephones, the Internet, etc., I think you get the
picture. It was silent meditation and the usual religious

practice.
It was great.

After reading the thread, I ordered the book through

Amazon.com.
Probably it will arrive after Christmas and will take a day or

two to
read it. When finished reading it, I will post my comments on

the
book and the thread for anyone who is still interested in the

subject..


I look forward to it with anticipation, Peter. And thanks, too,
to Chris . . . who must save everything. ;-)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - VEGETARIAN:
An Indian word meaning "lousy hunter." (Borrowed from a sig by
fellow listowner, Scott Peterson)

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Old 18-12-2003, 01:39 AM
Andy Rutledge
 
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Default [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)

Marty,

I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at
personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own
human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other
words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the
medium.

Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is
perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who
have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average
aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and
commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which
we've done nothing. Out of context IMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Haber"
Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone
appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting
trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition.
We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should
behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating
members' improvements upon improvements.
I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we

ought
to add a heaping portion of humility to our work.
Marty.


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************************************************** ******************************
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[IBC] FW: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" Marty Haber Bonsai 0 18-12-2003 02:27 AM
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