Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2003, 05:32 AM
Andy Rutledge
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was : Bonsai Today article on drainage)

Soil layering is an issue that, like so many individual and specific
practices, is largely misunderstood by enthusiasts outside of Japan. We
tend to think of this and too many other bonsai practices and techniques as
unrelated to other elements of the art and science. For instance, if it is
seemingly a science question, we don't include artistic concerns in the
equation. We also tend to wrongly believe that the differences in
horticultural practices between East and West are based on preference and
tradition rather than necessity.

In the case of Japanese growers advocating soil layering, neither the
science nor the reasoning is wrong. They do it for reasons that address the
entirety of their approach. For instance:

- Japanese growers have traditionally used large, handmade fertilizer
cakes - which necessitates some very specific annual practices and
influences the conventions of soil use/cycle/size/medium.
- Japanese growers have traditionally used akadama and large sand as their
primary soil media.
- Japanese growers are concentrated in a small country - with areas of
specific climate and annual rain trends.
- Japanese growers understand that the "art" of bonsai extends beyond the
tree and the pot (like to the soil and how it should look/behave in a couple
of specific different cases).
- Japanese growers understand that horticulture and art have to be
compatible - that horticulture must sometimes adapt to artistry, and
vice-versa.

So merely layering your soil is no better than merely cutting black pine
buds nor merely repotting nor merely defoliating. With each of these
practices/techniques there is a host of related issues that may be specific
to species, season, geographic location and/or individual tree condition and
history. Believing that just because it is only dirt means that soil
techniques that come from a specific country are not related to the other
specific practices common to that country is short-sighted.

This does not, of course, mean that soil layering is important in Japan but
not anywhere else. It means that if you follow the specifically growing
practices common to Japan, most of them are related to one another and
dependent on one another, so you can't so quickly discount one of them.

Take the various broom style formations. You will find that skilled
Japanese artists will poo-poo certain forms even though they are beautiful.
We may think that they're merely expressing their personal taste, but I've
found that when I ask, such cases are always related to specific
horticultural issues or issues of the tree's form 10 to 30 years from now.
So in such cases, an elm or beech that is beautiful now will not be in 20
years because certain physical structures will cause problems down the
road - so the skilled and knowledgeable artists advises huge changes
(wrecking the now beautiful form in favor of a long-lasting beauty). But
most of us have no experience with evaluating a bonsai's beauty and physical
quality over the span of 20 to 30 years.

We're foolish to evaluate specific practices or techniques of Japanese
growers based on Western growing techniques, Western growing practices and
Western bonsai tradition. Japan has a much longer history in bonsai AND
they have what we don't - a history of passing proven practices down in
strict, dogmatic fashion from skilled teacher to student. Most importantly,
this has happened in a proper learning environment - where the teacher is a
teacher, not a merchant for the student's purse.

Instead of asking Western growers who follow some - or very few - Japanese
growing techniques about the necessity or reason for certain specific
Japanese techniques, ask a Japanese grower about why they do this or that.
The answer will nearly always be because of several other things they're
doing too as a matter of course.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "p.aradi"
Peter:

snip
So get used to the idea that old practices, specially if they are proven
in practice over several centuries, may endure even if "scientifically
wrong." And "Kindai Bonsai," the source of that article is the best
and truly cutting edge magazine on bonsai.
Cheers.
Peter Aradi


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #2   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2003, 06:03 PM
Anton Nijhuis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was : Bonsai Today article on drainage)

We are not foolish to evaluate, I think you are making assumptions and
trying to rationalize on their defense.

I know a professional Japanese bonsai grower, with a B.SC in Agriculture
from a University in Japan plus an apprenticeship with a renowned bonsai
master. His words to me regarding horticultural methods used by 'bonsai
masters' is that their information is really just based on simple trial
& error without a scientific horticultural education. They may do the
right things but sometimes for the wrong reasons. Some of the so called
logical reasoning may sound correct but is not based on fact and
therefore we have the right to evaluate.

There are no such classifications such as 'Western growing techniques'
or 'Japanese growing techniques' nonsense. Horticulturists,
Agriculturists etc. trained at a recognized Japanese school are no
different than their peers trained in the US, Europe or any where else
in the world at recognized schools. Scientific horticultural training is
universal; all plants require the same basic things. The only difference
in growing practices is how we adapt them to our needs.

Without any disrespect for any of the authors the last place I will
reference for horticultural information is in a bonsai magazine or book.


Anton

We're foolish to evaluate specific practices or techniques of Japanese

growers based on Western growing techniques, Western growing practices
and
Western bonsai tradition. Japan has a much longer history in bonsai AND
they have what we don't - a history of passing proven practices down in
strict, dogmatic fashion from skilled teacher to student. Most
importantly,
this has happened in a proper learning environment - where the teacher
is a
teacher, not a merchant for the student's purse.

Instead of asking Western growers who follow some - or very few -
Japanese
growing techniques about the necessity or reason for certain specific
Japanese techniques, ask a Japanese grower about why they do this or
that.
The answer will nearly always be because of several other things they're
doing too as a matter of course.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #3   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2003, 07:03 PM
Richard Marcus
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was : Bonsai Today article on drainage)

My question to you Anton is: if the "last place" you reference for
horticultural information is in a bonsai magazine or book, then where is
your "first place" to find references?
Marcus
BC,Canada
-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf
Of Anton Nijhuis
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:35 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was :
Bonsai Today article on drainage)

We are not foolish to evaluate, I think you are making assumptions and
trying to rationalize on their defense.

I know a professional Japanese bonsai grower, with a B.SC in Agriculture
from a University in Japan plus an apprenticeship with a renowned bonsai
master. His words to me regarding horticultural methods used by 'bonsai
masters' is that their information is really just based on simple trial
& error without a scientific horticultural education. They may do the
right things but sometimes for the wrong reasons. Some of the so called
logical reasoning may sound correct but is not based on fact and
therefore we have the right to evaluate.

There are no such classifications such as 'Western growing techniques'
or 'Japanese growing techniques' nonsense. Horticulturists,
Agriculturists etc. trained at a recognized Japanese school are no
different than their peers trained in the US, Europe or any where else
in the world at recognized schools. Scientific horticultural training is
universal; all plants require the same basic things. The only difference
in growing practices is how we adapt them to our needs.

Without any disrespect for any of the authors the last place I will
reference for horticultural information is in a bonsai magazine or book.


Anton

We're foolish to evaluate specific practices or techniques of Japanese

growers based on Western growing techniques, Western growing practices
and
Western bonsai tradition. Japan has a much longer history in bonsai AND
they have what we don't - a history of passing proven practices down in
strict, dogmatic fashion from skilled teacher to student. Most
importantly,
this has happened in a proper learning environment - where the teacher
is a
teacher, not a merchant for the student's purse.

Instead of asking Western growers who follow some - or very few -
Japanese
growing techniques about the necessity or reason for certain specific
Japanese techniques, ask a Japanese grower about why they do this or
that.
The answer will nearly always be because of several other things they're
doing too as a matter of course.

************************************************** **********************
********
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** **********************
********
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
--
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #4   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2003, 07:12 PM
Andy Rutledge
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was : Bonsai Today article on drainage)

Anton,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anton Nijhuis"
We are not foolish to evaluate, I think you are making assumptions and
trying to rationalize on their defense.

--------------

Begging your pardon, I never said we are foolish to evaluate and you know
it. Read my post again and you'll notice that I said it is foolish to
evaluate outside of the relevant context. Kindly don't misconstrue my words
or thrust in order to pick it apart.
--------------

I know a professional Japanese bonsai grower, with a B.SC in Agriculture
from a University in Japan plus an apprenticeship with a renowned bonsai
master. His words to me regarding horticultural methods used by 'bonsai
masters' is that their information is really just based on simple trial
& error without a scientific horticultural education. They may do the
right things but sometimes for the wrong reasons. Some of the so called
logical reasoning may sound correct but is not based on fact and
therefore we have the right to evaluate.

---------------

And I now a Japanese health advocate who smokes 2 packs a day and thinks the
world is flat. ;-) Your anecdotal reference doesn't impact the
fundamentally solid horticulture that I'm referencing. I'm talking about
those who DO know what they're doing, not the many whose horticulture is
based on guesses and what they've read in a magazine - anywhere in the
world, including Japan. Sure, we can cite any number of growers who don't
have the relevant understanding we're discussing. That is of no relevance
to those who do have that understanding. C'mon Anton.
---------------

There are no such classifications such as 'Western growing techniques'
or 'Japanese growing techniques' nonsense. Horticulturists,
Agriculturists etc. trained at a recognized Japanese school are no
different than their peers trained in the US, Europe or any where else
in the world at recognized schools. Scientific horticultural training is
universal; all plants require the same basic things. The only difference
in growing practices is how we adapt them to our needs.

----------------

Baloney. "Western growing techniques" is what occurs outside of the
fundamentally sound Japanese growing techniques common to the formidable
bonsai "families" (...schools, traditions, etc...). When you're dealing
with 20 different soil components, 20 different mixture formulae, myriad
different climates, baseless horticulture, misunderstood and half-understood
practices, we're then talking about "Western growing techniques." As I
cited before, too many Western growers who don't have the benefit of the
"family-style" teaching take too many individual techniques/practices out of
context and used without any basis in understanding. We too often just use
a technique we read about or were told about without knowing any of the
relevant and impactful criteria and reasons for using/not using such
techniques. Soil layering is just one example.
----------------

Without any disrespect for any of the authors the last place I will
reference for horticultural information is in a bonsai magazine or book.
Anton

----------------

Given the manner and context in which you seem to want to take such
articles, I do not blame you. This is not, however, grounds for suggesting
that they're necessarily less than credible. It is, rather, your
understanding or judgment that is less than credible in this particular
case. Evaluation based on irrelevant or non-contextual data/criteria result
in flawed judgements. That's simply a fact.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/
zone 8, Texas

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #5   Report Post  
Old 23-12-2003, 03:36 AM
jklewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was : Bonsai Today article on drainage)

My question to you Anton is: if the "last place" you reference for
horticultural information is in a bonsai magazine or book, then where is
your "first place" to find references?
Marcus
BC,Canada



Probably, like me, a "horticultural book." Bonsai books are terrible places in which to find reliable information about how plants grow -- and especially WHY.

Jim Lewis - - temporarily in Durham,. NC

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


  #7   Report Post  
Old 23-12-2003, 05:42 PM
Anton Nijhuis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Drainage and other unfortunate mysteries (was : Bonsai Today article on drainage)

I still disagree with you as I feel you are making too broad a
generalization in regards to western growing practices. If you were to
visit the Fraser Valley in British Columbia you would be amazed at the
diversity of different multicultural groups running and owning
nurseries.

I also can not generalize on what you consider Japanese practices as
each traditional bonsai school is entirely dependent upon the competency
of its sensei and the education may or may not be limited. A point I
wish to raise is that this is definitely not the only growing practice
or method in Japan. A traditional school is not an entity on to itself
especially if they export there would be a need for horticultural
professionals that comply with international standards. But all in all
it takes a community to educate a child.

Anton

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Unfortunate sequence of events :-( Glenn S. Ponds 5 01-06-2005 09:55 PM
Unfortunate sequence of events :-( Koi4Me Gardening 0 01-06-2005 01:51 AM
[IBC] soil rumor + Drainage Layer + other off-the-wall Bonsai Today articles Nina Shishkoff Bonsai 4 02-03-2004 03:10 PM
[IBC] Bonsai Today article on drainage Iris Cohen Bonsai 1 21-12-2003 07:42 PM
[IBC] Bonsasi Today article on drainage Billy M. Rhodes Bonsai 1 21-12-2003 04:05 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2021 GardenBanter.co.uk.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Gardening"

 

Copyright © 2017