[IBC] '03 award programs
Looking at my latest BCI magazine, I thought that, in general,
the winner trees for the Ben Oki and Award Certe International were, as a whole, less than sterling for 2003. The Ismail Saleh award, on the other hand, had a couple of very nice winners -- and they only had 26 entries. (These are, of course, solely my OWN opinions.) The other two award announcements didn't mention the number of entries, but I seem to recall a plea for entries for both the Oki and Award Certe' late in the contest period because they had so few. I wonder, are three concurrent annual award programs too many? Should all or a couple of them be combined? Or should more IBCers enter. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The ignorant man marvels at the exceptional; the wise man marvels at the common; the greatest wonder of all is the regularity of nature. -- George Dana Bordman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" Looking at my latest BCI magazine, I thought that, in general, the winner trees for the Ben Oki and Award Certe International were, as a whole, less than sterling for 2003. The Ismail Saleh award, on the other hand, had a couple of very nice winners -- and they only had 26 entries. (These are, of course, solely my OWN opinions.) The other two award announcements didn't mention the number of entries, but I seem to recall a plea for entries for both the Oki and Award Certe' late in the contest period because they had so few. I wonder, are three concurrent annual award programs too many? Should all or a couple of them be combined? Or should more IBCers enter. ;-) Jim & all. There was a change in the rules for the Ben Oki to encourage entries by those relatively new to bonsai, rather than a contest among pros and semi-pros. I think this is effective in 2004. Yes, more IBCers should enter. Alan Walker can give you the details. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Thanks, Bart. Absolutely more IBCers should enter! It has
always been a wonder to me that so few people enter the competitions. (I would have loved to do this, but I was disqualified because I have been on the BCI board.) I think one problem is that a lot of people wait to the last minute to photograph, waiting for peak viewing after the spring flush of growth, and they wind up procrastinating past the deadlines. Your odds of winning are vastly improved over the Powerball or other lotteries! ;-) There is no entry fee for any of these, and the prizes are nice, not at all inconsequential. I won't clutter up the list with all the entry requirements. Instead, I will direct you to the BCI website's Index to Contests and Awards at http://bonsai-bci.com/contests.htm. Complete rules and entry forms can be downloaded there. I would like to point out that the Ben Oki International Design Award (or BOIDA) has significant rule changes to better insure that entrants are considered beginners (not just amateur) by their peers. This is defined as having done bonsai for five years or less and having this certified by your local club president. And while a nice professional looking photo can't hurt in trying to impress the judges, only a single photo will do. Award Certré International only requires BCI membership and having the entry bonsai in your possession for at least three years. Judgment of all submissions is based on the most outstanding bonsai pot selection, matching pot harmoniously to its tree. The Ismail Saleh Award allows almost anyone to enter (except judges and BCI board members) and has similar requirements to Award Certré International except for the emphasis on container selection. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" Looking at my latest BCI magazine, I thought that, in general, the winner trees for the Ben Oki and Award Certe International were, as a whole, less than sterling for 2003. The Ismail Saleh award, on the other hand, had a couple of very nice winners -- and they only had 26 entries. (These are, of course, solely my OWN opinions.) The other two award announcements didn't mention the number of entries, but I seem to recall a plea for entries for both the Oki and Award Certe' late in the contest period because they had so few. I wonder, are three concurrent annual award programs too many? Should all or a couple of them be combined? Or should more IBCers enter. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Bart Thomas Jim & all. There was a change in the rules for the Ben Oki to encourage entries by those relatively new to bonsai, rather than a contest among pros and semi-pros. I think this is effective in 2004. Yes, more IBCers should enter. Alan Walker can give you the details. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
the qualifying conditions below:
I hope that in the future, such criteria for entry into judged exhibits and contests will recognize the difference between a beautiful bonsai and an artist's efforts - instead of assuming that there is no distinction. In Japan, for instance, one may exhibit a beautiful bonsai that one "owns," but does not train in Kokufu-ten. Also/Or, one may be an artist and enter one's tree in Sakufu-ten - where the efforts of the artists are compared and evaluated. This way, the bonsai community and the general public get to see how the best bonsai of whatever pedigree are evaluated. What a shame that here in the U.S. a beautiful bonsai that one may have purchased last month is inelegable to be entered into any event where supposedly "the beauty of bonsai" is evaluated. I guess the owner/collectors of the world are just out of luck in the U.S.. We here in the U.S. seem only to be concerned with artists who want to exhibit their own work. So instead of the public and the bonsai community seeing the best bonsai be recognized, we're relegated to seeing the "best bonsai among those whose owners have worked on them for the past 3-5 years themselves" be recognized. Don't make sense to me, but I recon I gots some learnin' to do. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Walker" ...I would like to point out that the Ben Oki International Design Award (or BOIDA) has significant rule changes to better insure that entrants are considered beginners (not just amateur) by their peers. This is defined as having done bonsai for five years or less and having this certified by your local club president. ...Award Certré International only requires BCI membership and having the entry bonsai in your possession for at least three years. Judgment of all submissions is based on the most outstanding bonsai pot selection, matching pot harmoniously to its tree. ...The Ismail Saleh Award allows almost anyone to enter (except judges and BCI board members) and has similar requirements to Award Certré International except for the emphasis on container selection. Alan Walker ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy: It is only recently that any of the rules or standards for
Japanese competitions have been widely known outside of Japan. Such criteria are determined by the sponsors of the competitions. You, or anyone else, may feel free to lobby them for such a change. Or you could line up sponsors for a different competition such as you propose. I personally think either emphasis (awarding the bonsai vs. awarding the creator/maintainer) is valid. Different strokes for different folks. By the way, these are all thoroughly international competitions and not "U.S." Ismail Saleh Award is cosponsored by the Indonesian Bonsai Association. Award Certré International is sponsored by Mario Remeggio's Certré bonsai container company which is in Italy. The sponsors of BOIDA are from the USA, but entries come from around the world. This year's winner was from Italy, as a matter of fact. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- the qualifying conditions below: I hope that in the future, such criteria for entry into judged exhibits and contests will recognize the difference between a beautiful bonsai and an artist's efforts - instead of assuming that there is no distinction. In Japan, for instance, one may exhibit a beautiful bonsai that one "owns," but does not train in Kokufu-ten. Also/Or, one may be an artist and enter one's tree in Sakufu-ten - where the efforts of the artists are compared and evaluated. This way, the bonsai community and the general public get to see how the best bonsai of whatever pedigree are evaluated. What a shame that here in the U.S. a beautiful bonsai that one may have purchased last month is inelegable to be entered into any event where supposedly "the beauty of bonsai" is evaluated. I guess the owner/collectors of the world are just out of luck in the U.S.. We here in the U.S. seem only to be concerned with artists who want to exhibit their own work. So instead of the public and the bonsai community seeing the best bonsai be recognized, we're relegated to seeing the "best bonsai among those whose owners have worked on them for the past 3-5 years themselves" be recognized. Don't make sense to me, but I recon I gots some learnin' to do. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Walker" ...I would like to point out that the Ben Oki International Design Award (or BOIDA) has significant rule changes to better insure that entrants are considered beginners (not just amateur) by their peers. This is defined as having done bonsai for five years or less and having this certified by your local club president. ...Award Certré International only requires BCI membership and having the entry bonsai in your possession for at least three years. Judgment of all submissions is based on the most outstanding bonsai pot selection, matching pot harmoniously to its tree. ...The Ismail Saleh Award allows almost anyone to enter (except judges and BCI board members) and has similar requirements to Award Certré International except for the emphasis on container selection. Alan Walker ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Thanks Alan. I'm aware of all this and my point was that there is no
contest/evaluation available to U.S. collectors, besides the Japanese sponsored WBC, where a fine bonsai may be judged unless it has been owned by the same person for 3-5 years and that person (no other) has maintained it. Yes, I or another may hold our own judged exhibit where the entry criteria aren't ridiculous, but the fact that our national organizations want no part of that is simply laughable. It seems to be the American ideal that "fine bonsai" should not be evaluated and judged. Only "fine maintainers" may be. This is detrimental to the art of bonsai and we're missing out. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but is it too much to expect that our national leaders be concerned with appropriate contest/judgment/evaluation criteria? Right now I'm putting together an exhibit in the Dallas Fine Arts community and I received a letter from someone else in the Northeast who is doing the same thing. Small, individual efforts such as these are nice and one way to address this dearth of opportunity, but it should not be left to individuals to do what should be a no-brainer for our national leadership. My opinion. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Walker" Andy: It is only recently that any of the rules or standards for Japanese competitions have been widely known outside of Japan. Such criteria are determined by the sponsors of the competitions. You, or anyone else, may feel free to lobby them for such a change. Or you could line up sponsors for a different competition such as you propose. I personally think either emphasis (awarding the bonsai vs. awarding the creator/maintainer) is valid. Different strokes for different folks. By the way, these are all thoroughly international competitions and not "U.S." Ismail Saleh Award is cosponsored by the Indonesian Bonsai Association. Award Certré International is sponsored by Mario Remeggio's Certré bonsai container company which is in Italy. The sponsors of BOIDA are from the USA, but entries come from around the world. This year's winner was from Italy, as a matter of fact. Alan Walker ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Thanks Alan. I'm aware of all this and my point was that there
is no contest/evaluation available to U.S. collectors, besides the Japanese sponsored WBC, where a fine bonsai may be judged unless it has been owned by the same person for 3-5 years and that person (no other) has maintained it. Yes, I or another may hold our own judged exhibit where the entry criteria aren't ridiculous, but the fact that our national organizations want no part of that is simply laughable. Maybe the Bonsai Today family (Asia and Europe and USA, including BTO) should get together and sponsor a competition of this type -- either photographic like these three, or on the ground a part of some major bonsai get-together -- like there's probably time to plan it for the big gathering in Washington DC in 2005. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The ignorant man marvels at the exceptional; the wise man marvels at the common; the greatest wonder of all is the regularity of nature. -- George Dana Bordman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Thanks Alan. I'm aware of all this and my point was that there
is no contest/evaluation available to U.S. collectors, besides the Japanese sponsored WBC, where a fine bonsai may be judged unless it has been owned by the same person for 3-5 years and that person (no other) has maintained it. Yes, I or another may hold our own judged exhibit where the entry criteria aren't ridiculous, but the fact that our national organizations want no part of that is simply laughable. Maybe the Bonsai Today family (Asia and Europe and USA, including BTO) should get together and sponsor a competition of this type -- either photographic like these three, or on the ground a part of some major bonsai get-together -- like there's probably time to plan it for the big gathering in Washington DC in 2005. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The ignorant man marvels at the exceptional; the wise man marvels at the common; the greatest wonder of all is the regularity of nature. -- George Dana Bordman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Hi Jim,
The thrust and spirit of your suggestion is certainly a good one. However, lest anyone get the wrong impression, the Bonsai Today "family" (Kindai Bonsai, Bonsai Actual, Bonsai Today) is nothing of the sort. It is nothing beyond a merchant-customer reationship that cascades down from Japan - with the U.S. occupying the bottom rung. There is no rapport nor mutual support expressed or implied in this realtionship. It is business, plain and simple. Them's the breaks. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" Maybe the Bonsai Today family (Asia and Europe and USA, including BTO) should get together and sponsor a competition of this type -- either photographic like these three, or on the ground a part of some major bonsai get-together -- like there's probably time to plan it for the big gathering in Washington DC in 2005. Jim Lewis ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Hi Jim,
The thrust and spirit of your suggestion is certainly a good one. However, lest anyone get the wrong impression, the Bonsai Today "family" (Kindai Bonsai, Bonsai Actual, Bonsai Today) is nothing of the sort. It is nothing beyond a merchant-customer reationship that cascades down from Japan - with the U.S. occupying the bottom rung. There is no rapport nor mutual support expressed or implied in this realtionship. It is business, plain and simple. Them's the breaks. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" Maybe the Bonsai Today family (Asia and Europe and USA, including BTO) should get together and sponsor a competition of this type -- either photographic like these three, or on the ground a part of some major bonsai get-together -- like there's probably time to plan it for the big gathering in Washington DC in 2005. Jim Lewis ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Hi Jim,
The thrust and spirit of your suggestion is certainly a good one. However, lest anyone get the wrong impression, the Bonsai Today "family" (Kindai Bonsai, Bonsai Actual, Bonsai Today) is nothing of the sort. It is nothing beyond a merchant-customer reationship that cascades down from Japan - with the U.S. occupying the bottom rung. There is no rapport nor mutual support expressed or implied in this realtionship. It is business, plain and simple. Them's the breaks. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" Maybe the Bonsai Today family (Asia and Europe and USA, including BTO) should get together and sponsor a competition of this type -- either photographic like these three, or on the ground a part of some major bonsai get-together -- like there's probably time to plan it for the big gathering in Washington DC in 2005. Jim Lewis ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy,
You are trying to compare apples and oranges here. There is nothing wrong with shows judging an artists craft and skill in growing and maintaining bonsai and there is nothing wrong with having shows judging who can buy the best bonsai. These are two totally different criteria and should not be mixed in the same show. Just my opinion, Jay Wilson |
[IBC] '03 award programs
And once again, Andy, I would like to point out that it is not
the large organizations who are creating this requirement. We are only following the wishes of the persons who sponsor the competitions and ask us to administer them. If you can find someone who will put up the money to sponsor the type of competition you are espousing or can persuade one of the current sponsors to change their requirements, there will be no problem with getting us to administer it that way. Actually, Award Certré International already permits what you espouse to a degree. The rules require that "the bonsai must have been part of the artist's personal collection for a minimum of three years," but they do not say that the bonsai has to be trained by the owner. You can check this out for yourself at http://www.bonsai-bci.com/contests.htm Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Andy Rutledge Hi Jay, I appreciate your opinion, but perhaps you missed my thrust. Yes, I understand the difference. Our large organizations do not. Under the auspices of our large national organizations, there is currenly no opportunity for owners of fine bonsai to show their trees - unless these owners/collectors also have done all of the styling/care for those trees for the past 3 to 5 years. This is what I find so disappointing. What this means is that a collector of fine bonsai in the U.S. who smartly pays a professional to maintain his collection and who has something worthwhile, artistic and inspiring to show in a judged event, CANNOT do so (except in one show - that I know of - put on by a very small club in CA). I hope this puts a finer point on the matter. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Wilson" Andy, You are trying to compare apples and oranges here. There is nothing wrong with shows judging an artists craft and skill in growing and maintaining bonsai and there is nothing wrong with having shows judging who can buy the best bonsai. These are two totally different criteria and should not be mixed in the same show. Just my opinion, Jay Wilson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Thanks Alan. I'm aware of all this and my point was that there is no contest/evaluation available to U.S. collectors, besides the Japanese sponsored WBC, where a fine bonsai may be judged unless it has been owned by the same person for 3-5 years and that person (no other) has maintained it. snip Right now I'm putting together an exhibit in the Dallas Fine Arts community and I received a letter from someone else in the Northeast who is doing the same thing. Small, individual efforts such as these are nice and one way to address this dearth of opportunity, but it should not be left to individuals to do what should be a no-brainer for our national leadership. My opinion. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas Andy: Let me ask the $5 question. Do you personally know of anyone who is in this desperate situation you describe, being a wealthy person who pays someone else to style and completely maintain their trees, and who is suffering terribly because nobody will allow them to display their trees in competitions? I guess I'd like to hear from this shy group of people myself. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Thanks Alan. I'm aware of all this and my point was that there is no contest/evaluation available to U.S. collectors, besides the Japanese sponsored WBC, where a fine bonsai may be judged unless it has been owned by the same person for 3-5 years and that person (no other) has maintained it. snip Right now I'm putting together an exhibit in the Dallas Fine Arts community and I received a letter from someone else in the Northeast who is doing the same thing. Small, individual efforts such as these are nice and one way to address this dearth of opportunity, but it should not be left to individuals to do what should be a no-brainer for our national leadership. My opinion. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas Andy: Let me ask the $5 question. Do you personally know of anyone who is in this desperate situation you describe, being a wealthy person who pays someone else to style and completely maintain their trees, and who is suffering terribly because nobody will allow them to display their trees in competitions? I guess I'd like to hear from this shy group of people myself. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy Rutledge wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Cowing" Andy: Let me ask the $5 question. Do you personally know of anyone who is in this desperate situation you describe, being a wealthy person who pays someone else to style and completely maintain their trees, and who is suffering terribly because nobody will allow them to display their trees in competitions? I guess I'd like to hear from this shy group of people myself. Craig Cowing ----------------------------- Alas, I cannot help you. You see, this "group of people" does no exist in the U.S. community because our organizations have worked to make them unwelcome and provide nothing of interest to them through their publications and activities. How sad. In the world of American bonsai, if you ain't a hobbyist, you ain't nuthin'. It's foolish to blame the national bonsai organizations for this, Andy. In fact, you have provided the answer to your own concern in a myriad of posts concerning the whole issue of whether or not bonsai is an art. This country doesn't have the depth of tradition in bonsai--there is a longer tradition in California because of the Asian-American population, but out here on the east coast I get the impression that a bonsai club is old if it's over 25 years old. Someday this may become a pertinent issue because there will be a larger number of collector/non-hobbyists in the country. Right now there aren't. The president of BCI has already weighed in on this issue on the IBC: "And once again, Andy, I would like to point out that it is not "the large organizations who are creating this requirement. We are only "following the wishes of the persons who sponsor the competitions and ask "us to administer them. If you can find someone who will put up the "money to sponsor the type of competition you are espousing or can "persuade one of the current sponsors to change their requirements, there "will be no problem with getting us to administer it that way. In order to advance bonsai as an art, not merely a hobby (and personally, I don't see the highest manifestation of the bonsai owner as someone who owns the trees and pays someone else to maintain them--that's unnecessarily elitist) then we're going to have to work at it. There are still plenty of people in this country who still think of a bonsai as those little juniper cuttings with rocks glued on the soil that appear in November at Walmart and Home Depot. I meet them all the time. As you know it's a long ride from that to the sort of thing you're suggesting. Please see my separate post from earlier today on my own gradual effort to have a local bonsai exhibit sponsored by a local arts society. In partial answer to your request, I can tell you that I know of one collector in this country who has a talented professional maintain his collection. This person has some of the best bonsai in this country, but has exhibited them only once - when a small company hosted a judged exhibit where the entry criteria were based on size and species (rather than how long he has been training them or how long he's been in bonsai or how long he has owned the trees). Getting to see his bonsai was a wonderful experience and certainly inspiring. He's not a member of any club because no club or national organization is even slightly concerned with individuals like him - a collector. Is that the only reason he's not a member of a club? I can't believe it's the only one. I can't honestly belive that a person who has made a financial commitment to pay someone to maintain a bonsai collection would have no interest in watching demos, hearing lectures on various aspects of bonsai, etc. Maybe if he did he would learn something--like how to pinch a juniper, perhaps. Perhaps this guy could put on a garden party and have his own exhibition at his home, or for security purposes, at another venue. Maybe do it as a fundraiser for a charity. Why not? I'd love to be able to do that someday. Also, why is competing in a contest the highest level of bonsai for some? Yes, this is a "single" instance that I know of - and for good reason. Surely I don't have to explain the reason. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm Well, you've already given your reason, but don't assume that it is crystal-clear to everyone else. For me, I just don't agree. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
If this is the case in USA I really feel very sorry for all of those people
not beeing able to enjoy the sometimes overwhelming appearance of those great trees which would otherwise be totally out of reach to most of us normal mortals. It is the generosity of those collectors who allow us for a little while to share in the greatness of their treasures. And being a struggling hobbyist myself I feel very much joy and admiration for the look of a perfect branchstructure that has been worked on by generations of bonsaiprofessionals. I think instead of the envie I sense(If I am wrong I am sorry for that), a little appreciation or even gratitude would be more in place toward the generosity of the collectors. I just think that the world of bonsai is a little bigger as just the irst few years of trees in training. Nothing wrong with that........just there is more and nothing wrong with a little awareness on that part too. My 2 cents, elize ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Cowing" Andy: Let me ask the $5 question. Do you personally know of anyone who is in this desperate situation you describe, being a wealthy person who pays someone else to style and completely maintain their trees, and who is suffering terribly because nobody will allow them to display their trees in competitions? I guess I'd like to hear from this shy group of people myself. Craig Cowing ----------------------------- Alas, I cannot help you. You see, this "group of people" does no exist in the U.S. community because our organizations have worked to make them unwelcome and provide nothing of interest to them through their publications and activities. How sad. In the world of American bonsai, if you ain't a hobbyist, you ain't nuthin'. In partial answer to your request, I can tell you that I know of one collector in this country who has a talented professional maintain his collection. This person has some of the best bonsai in this country, but has exhibited them only once - when a small company hosted a judged exhibit where the entry criteria were based on size and species (rather than how long he has been training them or how long he's been in bonsai or how long he has owned the trees). Getting to see his bonsai was a wonderful experience and certainly inspiring. He's not a member of any club because no club or national organization is even slightly concerned with individuals like him - a collector. Yes, this is a "single" instance that I know of - and for good reason. Surely I don't have to explain the reason. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing" snip In order to advance bonsai as an art, not merely a hobby (and personally, I don't see the highest manifestation of the bonsai owner as someone who owns the trees and pays someone else to maintain them--that's unnecessarily elitist) then we're going to have to work at it. -------------- Craig, I have never said nor even suggested that wealthy collectors are the hightest manifestation of bonsai owner. Are you now making things up in order to paint my thrust in a negative light? That's rather malevolent, isn't it? I hope you realize that we're not political opponents and there's no need for demagoguery. In reference to affluent arts patrons, I have lamented the fact that our community does not welcome them - a significant reason for the fact that there are few of them. One kind of enthusiast is no "better" than another. The fact that affluent collectors can contribute more to the economy of an endeavor and expand the scope of enthusiasm (from a different direction) is a simple fact. This sort of participation is something that the endeavor in the U.S. does not currently enjoy to any significant degree. This facet of the community need not be "better" than the rest in order for us to welcome it. Please don't misconstrue my observations on this issue. -------------- Please see my separate post from earlier today on my own gradual effort to have a local bonsai exhibit sponsored by a local arts society. -------------- Excellent. I hope it works out well. Keep us updated. -------------- I can't honestly belive that a person who has made a financial commitment to pay someone to maintain a bonsai collection would have no interest in watching demos, hearing lectures on various aspects of bonsai, etc. Maybe if he did he would learn something--like how to pinch a juniper, perhaps. --------------- Ha! You mean the way that other art collectors join clubs where they learn the techniques of painting and scultpting? Craig, you are mistakenly applying your brand of enthusiasm upon them. This is part of the problem - too many of us can't understand how someone would not be interested in learning the craft/creation aspects of bonsai. Art collectors don't necessarily have any interest in learning how to "do" the art. They instead COLLECT the art. What about this is so difficult for you to understand? Why must we all be bonsai participants for the same reasons and in the same manner? There's nothing "wrong" with these people. They simply have a different mode of involvement in the community. I hope you can rewire your mind with regard to this concept. --------------- Also, why is competing in a contest the highest level of bonsai for some? --------------- Again, you're misconstruing the point. It is not "the highest" level of bonsai. It is simply a facet of our endeavor that here in the U.S. is done very poorly and with ridiculous methods. I merely ask that we redefine our approach. Why is this so difficult to consider? --------------- Well, you've already given your reason, but don't assume that it is crystal-clear to everyone else. For me, I just don't agree. Craig Cowing --------------- Now this I can understand and take at face value. Yes, perhaps you simply disagree with my thrust. Fair enough. But please don't deform my arguments so that you can more easily argue against them. Thanks. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy Rutledge wrote:
snip -------------- Craig, I have never said nor even suggested that wealthy collectors are the hightest manifestation of bonsai owner. Are you now making things up in order to paint my thrust in a negative light? Not at all. But I at least see this implied, and in my view it's a short walk from your position to explicitly stating the above. But no, you didn't state it explicitly, and I'm sorry if you took it that I was saying so. That's rather malevolent, isn't it? I hope you realize that we're not political opponents and there's no need for demagoguery. Of course not. I don't engage in demagoguery, I have no interest in purposely antagonizing you or anyone else, and I don't see you as an opponent or a bad person, just someone with whom I have some disagreements. I like to debate, Andy, and this is something I have an opinion on. In reference to affluent arts patrons, I have lamented the fact that our community does not welcome them - a significant reason for the fact that there are few of them. You see, this is where I find the fallacy--a simple cause and effect argument. You seem to see this dearth of collectors/non-enthusiasts as being caused by a blindspot in the vision of bonsai organizations. I see it as a function of the extreme youth of the bonsai community in this country and in the West in general. I also see it as a function of our society and it's rampant individualism, which at times, I must admit, irritates me. One kind of enthusiast is no "better" than another. The fact that affluent collectors can contribute more to the economy of an endeavor and expand the scope of enthusiasm (from a different direction) is a simple fact. This sort of participation is something that the endeavor in the U.S. does not currently enjoy to any significant degree. See my comments above. It will undoubtedly happen in time, but hasn't happened yet. As parents we both know that six-month old babies are not ready to walk. snip -------------- Please see my separate post from earlier today on my own gradual effort to have a local bonsai exhibit sponsored by a local arts society. -------------- Excellent. I hope it works out well. Keep us updated. Will do. As I explained in the other post, I don't have the wherewithal to put on a bonsai exhibit on my own, but I may be able to persuade a couple of Yama Ki members to put on an exhibition with me, perhaps later this year if I can swing it. Mike Pollock, are you out there??? The viewing stone exhibit I saw as a way of testing the water for a general view of seeing natural art as real art. As you have pointed out in previous comments, there seems to be, in at least a part of the arts community, a prejudice against something natural being art. So, this will be a way of taking advantage of what seems to be a favorable environment. -------------- I can't honestly belive that a person who has made a financial commitment to pay someone to maintain a bonsai collection would have no interest in watching demos, hearing lectures on various aspects of bonsai, etc. Maybe if he did he would learn something--like how to pinch a juniper, perhaps. --------------- snip Art collectors don't necessarily have any interest in learning how to "do" the art. They instead COLLECT the art. No, they don't, but it seems to me that a person who is more that just someone who picks up interesting stuff at a yard sale might also be interested in learning about the art. Are you honestly saying that art collectors are people who blindly buy up art because someone else says that it's good art? I certainly hope not. People are drawn to a particular style of art, or even the work of a particular artist, because of the way they do something. In terms of bonsai, when people see my trees, or even if they haven't seen them but know I do bonsai as a hobby, they are interested in two things--what's my oldest tree and how do you do bonsai. Very little variation. What about this is so difficult for you to understand? Why must we all be bonsai participants for the same reasons and in the same manner? There's nothing "wrong" with these people. They simply have a different mode of involvement in the community. I hope you can rewire your mind with regard to this concept. --------------- My mind doesn't need rewiring, Andy, except in the area of improving my short-term memory so I can remember where I last put my checkbook or car keys. We all have frameworks within which we think, and I see nothing wrong with the way I think. Now who is engaging in demagoguery or malevolence? ;0} My general, underlying opinion in this whole area is this: In order to advance the art of bonsai, I feel it is necessary for it *not* to be elitist. The more people who are involved, the better. The more we can do to dispell the still commonly-held view that there is an Asian "secret" to bonsai that only initiates know, the better off we all are. This is related to the separate thread on Zen, and Peter Aradi's concern that "Zen" is heavily misused as a term to describe something sublime. There is no mystery or "zen" in bonsai in terms of how to do it. I think we agree on that. The difficulty in our understanding each other's positions is that we may be approaching from different directions. Also, why is competing in a contest the highest level of bonsai for some? --------------- Again, you're misconstruing the point. It is not "the highest" level of bonsai. You missed the "for some." It is simply a facet of our endeavor that here in the U.S. is done very poorly and with ridiculous methods. I merely ask that we redefine our approach. Why is this so difficult to consider? --------------- Well, you've already given your reason, but don't assume that it is crystal-clear to everyone else. For me, I just don't agree. Craig Cowing --------------- Now this I can understand and take at face value. Yes, perhaps you simply disagree with my thrust. Fair enough. But please don't deform my arguments so that you can more easily argue against them. Thanks. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden path that they can lead us down. There is a difference. One last statement: I see nothing wrong with a person who collects bonsai but has them maintained by someone else. To my mind this is no different than a well-off person hiring someone to do their gardening for them. But when it comes to exhibiting a bonsai, especially in a competitive exhibition, I feel the attribution should be given to the artist who maintains the tree as well as the owner. This is no different than an art collector loaning his/her Rembrandt to the Metropolitan, and having the attribution go to Rembrandt, not the collector. This can also advance the art of bonsai by making that particular artist's work better-known, and give them more clients. Besides, who wouldn't want to show off a tree styled by John Naka or Nick Lenz or Colin Lewis? Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Craig,
I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end of this page is the most important, IMO) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Cowing" You see, this is where I find the fallacy--a simple cause and effect argument. You seem to see this dearth of collectors/non-enthusiasts as being caused by a blindspot in the vision of bonsai organizations. I see it as a function of the extreme youth of the bonsai community in this country and in the West in general. I also see it as a function of our society and it's rampant individualism, which at times, I must admit, irritates me. ------------- Okay, I'm not addressing the fullness of the issues surrounding the dearth of bonsai art collectors. Rather, I'm addressing/discussing the one issue that we have control over. It is ridiculous to believe that any one factor is currently responsible for this situation. Of course our endeavor is young in this country. However, unless we address "our house," no amount of time will be enough for collectors to find a comfortable place in our community. Please don't mistake my discussion focus for blinders. I've never said that these things I cite are "the" reason. They are just what "we" can do. I hope this helps to better explain my thrust. ------------- No, they don't, but it seems to me that a person who is more that just someone who picks up interesting stuff at a yard sale might also be interested in learning about the art. Are you honestly saying that art collectors are people who blindly buy up art because someone else says that it's good art? I certainly hope not. People are drawn to a particular style of art, or even the work of a particular artist, because of the way they do something. In terms of bonsai, when people see my trees, or even if they haven't seen them but know I do bonsai as a hobby, they are interested in two things--what's my oldest tree and how do you do bonsai. Very little variation. -------------- Yes. Let me put it this way: I know several art collectors - people who collect a particular art or style of art or works from a specific artist. In every case, even though they are enamored of this work/art/medium, they possess no inclination to try and acquire the skills/knowledge needed to produce such things. They're enthusiastic collectors, not artists. This would seem to be a very common tale in the arts world. Just because the medium in question here is bonsai is no reason to think that everything about the collectors is somehow different. -------------- My mind doesn't need rewiring, Andy, except in the area of improving my short-term memory so I can remember where I last put my checkbook or car keys. We all have frameworks within which we think, and I see nothing wrong with the way I think. Now who is engaging in demagoguery or malevolence? ;0} -------------- :-) Yes. I'm being particularly pointed in my responses (today) because of what I perceive attacks on my effort and my words. I'm quite happy to discuss things in a civil and logical manner, but not in the face of distortions and misapplied quotes/characterizations. I'll be happy to respond in kind to your end. I hope that we're done with the pointedness. ------------- My general, underlying opinion in this whole area is this: In order to advance the art of bonsai, I feel it is necessary for it *not* to be elitist. The more people who are involved, the better. ------------- This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that anything I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in fact contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved, the better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors. Why? I hope that you realize the important distinction between elite and elitist. If you do not, you're not qualified to have this discussion. If you do, why do you insist on characterizing the ADDITION of a group of enthusiasts to our community as an elitist effort? By your own admission, the addition of more enthusiasts is better. Does the fact that affluent enthusiasts can afford to participate at a level different from your own or can purchase bonsai art of a quality higher than someone else can bother you so much that you lose perspective? "Elite" is great. "Elitist" is bad, derogatory and inflamatory. There has been no mention of elitism here - except by you. Class / income envy has no place in this discussion. ------------- I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden path that they can lead us down. There is a difference. ------------- Let me point out that whether or not you intend it, you've not so much pointed out the logical path of what I've mentioned as you have pointed out the logical path of what you've made up. Again, you've addressed your own distorted view of my posit - not my actual posits. There's a difference. I'm addressing your finishing statement in another message (Judged exhibit lunacy) Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Craig, I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end of this page is the most important, IMO) snip Let me put it this way: I know several art collectors - people who collect a particular art or style of art or works from a specific artist. In every case, even though they are enamored of this work/art/medium, they possess no inclination to try and acquire the skills/knowledge needed to produce such things. They're enthusiastic collectors, not artists. This would seem to be a very common tale in the arts world. Just because the medium in question here is bonsai is no reason to think that everything about the collectors is somehow different. - No--not acquiring the skills--learning *about* the skills. Watching someone else do it. That's all. What else would you do at a bonsai club meeting? snip This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that anything I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in fact contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved, the better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors. Why? I'm not prepared to ignore them at all. As I said at the end of my last post, I have no problem with people who collect trees but have someone else maintain them. I just don't like it when someone wants to put a tree in an exhibition under their name when they don't deserve the credit for it's production. That's it. I hope that you realize the important distinction between elite and elitist. If you do not, you're not qualified to have this discussion. Andy, after 4 years of college, 6 years of graduate study and 2 of postgraduate study I think I am qualified for this discussion and can understand the difference between the terms. If you do, why do you insist on characterizing the ADDITION of a group of enthusiasts to our community as an elitist effort? The addition of such people to the community is not elitist. By your own admission, the addition of more enthusiasts is better. Yep. Does the fact that affluent enthusiasts can afford to participate at a level different from your own or can purchase bonsai art of a quality higher than someone else can bother you so much that you lose perspective? Not a bit. "Elite" is great. "Elitist" is bad, derogatory and inflamatory. There has been no mention of elitism here - except by you. Class / income envy has no place in this discussion. Right. Except in reference to the above. It is insulting (and I've heard of this happening in club shows) for a person who has the financial wherewithal to go out and buy a tree two weeks before an exhibit and put the tree in the exhibit under their name, when generally most of the trees in such an exhibit have been produced by the individuals themselves. I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden path that they can lead us down. There is a difference. ------------- Let me point out that whether or not you intend it, you've not so much pointed out the logical path of what I've mentioned as you have pointed out the logical path of what you've made up. Again, you've addressed your own distorted view of my posit - not my actual posits. There's a difference. No, it's not necessarily the logical path, but a danger. I'm addressing your finishing statement in another message (Judged exhibit lunacy) Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas :-) !! Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
I wonder if one of you two could summarize this too long thread.
On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 02:14 PM, Craig Cowing wrote: Andy Rutledge wrote: Craig, I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end of this page is the most important, IMO) Bob Seele Nicely outside of Chicago Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler : Albert Einstein ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
I am pretty certain that I have seen/heard about antique or collectable car
shows with various contests. I know that several I have heard about had contests for the restorers of a car, judges at least partially on before/after pictures, difficulty of repair or fabrication, etc. (maybe this would be an analog of the hobbyist contest). They also had contests (which I don't understand how they were judged) for best cars in various categories or vintages - regardless if the owner was the restorer, or an owner/collector. Then again, there are "Show and Shine" get-togethers, where people who are into restoring or collecting vintage cars just get together, show each other their babies and enjoy a mutual love. This might be pretty off-topic, but it seems that it at least touches upon some of the issues that have been mentioned. In this case it appears there are contests for "best work done by an enthusiast", AND there is judging done for particularly fine examples or specimens. This isn't a hobby I am into, but my father-in-law restores early model Fords, and has mentioned some of the shows and awards several times. __________________________________________________ _______________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy...n.asp?cid=3963 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Art collectors don't necessarily have any interest in learning how to "do" the art. They instead COLLECT the art. Yeahbut . . . ART collectors as most people understand the term only have to dust their collection occasionally. Bonsai are unlike other "art" forms (I'm assuming something here that I don't necessarily think applies to all bonsai) in that if the collector doesn't at least water them, the investment in the "art" will dry up and blow away. Since, unless the collector has live-in staff whose job is solely to maintain his collection (unlikely) rather than contract help who drop by every so often or on a schedule, he should (I'd think) want to be able to at least take emergency actions if someone dumps a martini or spills toilet-bowl cleaner on the roots of a Kimura pine. Even if a collector's paintings get slashed, she can wait to get them restored at the convenience of the restorer. That option isn't available for a drunken or poisoned pine. The Collector needs to be able to repot -- and NOW! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The ignorant man marvels at the exceptional; the wise man marvels at the common; the greatest wonder of all is the regularity of nature. -- George Dana Bordman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
Craig: You pretty much had me up to here. I can see and agree how Andy
would see this as a sort of reverse snobbery, if you "merely" bought it, you have no right to claim it or any other assumption someone might have by seeing the owner's name. Frankly, when it comes to exhibits, people who own very nice bonsai do NOT want their name publicized due to security concerns. Since bonsai need to be grown outdoors, security is always an issue, and having your name appended to a fine specimen subjects you to the same risks of theft as having your name in the obituary column. There have always been schmucks who will exploit this. I really haven't heard a lot of clamor for the sort of competition for which Andy is lobbying, but I know that if a clamor develops, the need will be fulfilled. Simple supply and demand economics. Andy is spot on, however, that there is a lot of snobbery in the bonsai community towards "collectors" (as opposed to hobbyists). I believe he errs in ascribing this to bonsai organizations rather than to individuals within those organizations. While his rhetoric is drawing attention to the problem, I just hope it doesn't counterproductively alienate with its intensity and personalizations. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- SNIP This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that anything I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in fact contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved, the better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors. Why? I'm not prepared to ignore them at all. As I said at the end of my last post, I have no problem with people who collect trees but have someone else maintain them. I just don't like it when someone wants to put a tree in an exhibition under their name when they don't deserve the credit for its production. That's it. SNIP Craig Cowing ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Walker" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:43 PM Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs Snip: I believe he errs in ascribing this to bonsai organizations rather than to individuals within those organizations. While his rhetoric is drawing attention to the problem, I just hope it doesn't counterproductively alienate with its intensity and personalizations. Alan Walker Too late! No one likes a world wide web rhetorical browbeating if they don't agree with something. It seems ( to me anyway) this is happening a lot with this author and subject lately. It makes discussion of it to much hassle to bother! Dale ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] '03 award programs
I have leaped into this discussion with the thought in
mind that there is no new information stated just more clever rhetoric. Why do we have to agree? Are we into Bonsai or just all frustrated linguists belaboring a semantic difference? I mean, you are taking phrases out of eiach othere text and trying to make them wrong. What about the whole message. Can't we appreciate the differences? Can we supply new information if we must continue? What I hear Andy say is if clubs and or their memebers or govening board would seek out collectors as members, then this problem of not seeing wonderous privately collected trees would go away. To me it is a wish and not a demand and I don't see anything wrong with that. Kitsune Miko --- dalecochoy wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Walker" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:43 PM Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs Snip: I believe he errs in ascribing this to bonsai organizations rather than to individuals within those organizations. While his rhetoric is drawing attention to the problem, I just hope it doesn't counterproductively alienate with its intensity and personalizations. Alan Walker Too late! No one likes a world wide web rhetorical browbeating if they don't agree with something. It seems ( to me anyway) this is happening a lot with this author and subject lately. It makes discussion of it to much hassle to bother! Dale ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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