Just ordered some annealed copper wire. Here's a sample of the pricing for
single rolls. They offer quantity and volume discounts.

1/4" DIA. = .250" - ( 6.35MM ) - 6 FEET @ $6.00
3/16" DIA. = .188" - ( 4.76MM ) - 10 FEET @ $6.00
6 GAUGE = .160" - ( 4.11MM ) - 12 FEET @ $6.00
8 GAUGE = .128" - ( 3.20MM ) - 20 FEET @ $6.25
10 GAUGE = .102" - ( 2.60MM ) - 30 FEET @ $6.50
11 GAUGE = .091" - ( 2.30MM ) - 40 FEET @ $6.75
12 GAUGE = .080" - ( 2.00MM ) - 50 FEET @ $6.75
14 GAUGE = .064" - ( 1.60MM ) - 80 FEET @ $7.00
16 GAUGE = .050" - ( 1.27MM ) -125 FEET @ $7.25
18 GAUGE = .040" - ( 1.00MM ) - 200 FEET @ $7.50
20 GAUGE = .032" - ( 0.82MM ) - 325 FEET @ $7.75
22 GAUGE = .025" - ( 0.65MM ) - 525 FEET @ $8.00
24 GAUGE = .020" - ( 0.52MM ) - 800 FEET @ $8.50
26 GAUGE = .016" - ( 0.41MM ) - 1295 FEET @ $10.00
28 GAUGE = .013" - ( 0.32MM ) - 2050 FEET @ $12.50
THEY CARRY SIZES FROM 2 GAUGE ( .250" ) TO 32 GAUGE ( .008" )

PARAMOUNT WIRE CO
www.parawire.com

First time I ordered from them. I'll let you know how it goes.

Alan Zucker zone 6b
You're never to old to learn. You can learn from both beginner and expert.




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Alan: There's annealing and then there's annealing. Unless it comes from a source
annealing for bonsai purposes, you will probably find the wire rather stiff and need
to reanneal the larger gauges.
Thanks for sharing the resource. Did they indicate the cost of shipping?
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Alan Zucker wrote:
Just ordered some annealed copper wire. Here's a sample of the pricing for single
rolls. They offer quantity and volume discounts.

1/4" DIA. = .250" - ( 6.35MM ) - 6 FEET @ $6.00
3/16" DIA. = .188" - ( 4.76MM ) - 10 FEET @ $6.00
6 GAUGE = .160" - ( 4.11MM ) - 12 FEET @ $6.00
8 GAUGE = .128" - ( 3.20MM ) - 20 FEET @ $6.25
10 GAUGE = .102" - ( 2.60MM ) - 30 FEET @ $6.50
11 GAUGE = .091" - ( 2.30MM ) - 40 FEET @ $6.75
12 GAUGE = .080" - ( 2.00MM ) - 50 FEET @ $6.75
14 GAUGE = .064" - ( 1.60MM ) - 80 FEET @ $7.00
16 GAUGE = .050" - ( 1.27MM ) -125 FEET @ $7.25
18 GAUGE = .040" - ( 1.00MM ) - 200 FEET @ $7.50
20 GAUGE = .032" - ( 0.82MM ) - 325 FEET @ $7.75
22 GAUGE = .025" - ( 0.65MM ) - 525 FEET @ $8.00
24 GAUGE = .020" - ( 0.52MM ) - 800 FEET @ $8.50
26 GAUGE = .016" - ( 0.41MM ) - 1295 FEET @ $10.00
28 GAUGE = .013" - ( 0.32MM ) - 2050 FEET @ $12.50
THEY CARRY SIZES FROM 2 GAUGE ( .250" ) TO 32 GAUGE ( .008" )
PARAMOUNT WIRE CO
www.parawire.com
First time I ordered from them. I'll let you know how it goes.
Alan Zucker zone 6b

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Hi Alan,

I've been investigating them too. My concerns were that their annealing
process was electrical, not via heat-- although I'm sure the electricity
creates resistance=heat-- I'm not certain how that differs metallurgically
if at all from traditional fire annealing.

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Alan Zucker
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 2:04 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire


Just ordered some annealed copper wire. Here's a sample of the pricing for
single rolls. They offer quantity and volume discounts.

1/4" DIA. = .250" - ( 6.35MM ) - 6 FEET @ $6.00
3/16" DIA. = .188" - ( 4.76MM ) - 10 FEET @ $6.00
6 GAUGE = .160" - ( 4.11MM ) - 12 FEET @ $6.00
8 GAUGE = .128" - ( 3.20MM ) - 20 FEET @ $6.25
10 GAUGE = .102" - ( 2.60MM ) - 30 FEET @ $6.50
11 GAUGE = .091" - ( 2.30MM ) - 40 FEET @ $6.75
12 GAUGE = .080" - ( 2.00MM ) - 50 FEET @ $6.75
14 GAUGE = .064" - ( 1.60MM ) - 80 FEET @ $7.00
16 GAUGE = .050" - ( 1.27MM ) -125 FEET @ $7.25
18 GAUGE = .040" - ( 1.00MM ) - 200 FEET @ $7.50
20 GAUGE = .032" - ( 0.82MM ) - 325 FEET @ $7.75
22 GAUGE = .025" - ( 0.65MM ) - 525 FEET @ $8.00
24 GAUGE = .020" - ( 0.52MM ) - 800 FEET @ $8.50
26 GAUGE = .016" - ( 0.41MM ) - 1295 FEET @ $10.00
28 GAUGE = .013" - ( 0.32MM ) - 2050 FEET @ $12.50
THEY CARRY SIZES FROM 2 GAUGE ( .250" ) TO 32 GAUGE ( .008" )

PARAMOUNT WIRE CO
www.parawire.com

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Bockman"
Hi Alan,
I've been investigating them too. My concerns were that their annealing
process was electrical, not via heat-- although I'm sure the electricity
creates resistance=heat-- I'm not certain how that differs metallurgically
if at all from traditional fire annealing.
David J. Bockman
-------------------

Gee whiz, at those prices one could certainly afford to find out (provided
that their minimums are not in the hundreds or thousands).

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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I guess it depends on the size and/or weight of the order. My total for 6
rolls is $55. I will let you know stiff the larger gauges are.


Alan Zucker zone 6b
You're never to old to learn. You can learn from both beginner and expert.

Alan: There's annealing and then there's annealing. Unless it comes from
a source
annealing for bonsai purposes, you will probably find the wire rather stiff
and need
to reanneal the larger gauges.
Thanks for sharing the resource. Did they indicate the cost of
shipping?


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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I agree...... Plus you could simply anneal it yourself, although I probably
would like to see it done at least once so I know the appropriate color to
look for. Hey you potters out there, you could anneal a boatload of wire
lickety-split. )

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Rutledge ]
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 2:18 PM
To: David J. Bockman;
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire


----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Bockman"
Hi Alan,
I've been investigating them too. My concerns were that their annealing
process was electrical, not via heat-- although I'm sure the electricity
creates resistance=heat-- I'm not certain how that differs metallurgically
if at all from traditional fire annealing.
David J. Bockman
-------------------

Gee whiz, at those prices one could certainly afford to find out (provided
that their minimums are not in the hundreds or thousands).

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Just did a little comparison. Dallas bonsai is
actually cheaper then they are if you buy in bulk "1
kilogram rolls". I emailed parawire.com just now to
see if there is any discount when buying larger rolls.

Ben

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1/4 inch wire is equivilant to about a number 6 or 8 wire. That has a
current carrying capacity of 40-50 amperes. That is what it will handle
depending on if it is solid or stranded. To heat a wire that size enough to
anneal it would take one heck of a lot of current and usually wire when
overloaded will melt rapidly unless in a very controlled situation where the
current can be monitored.

Just the ramblings of someone who has a bit of experience with electricity.

--I crucified my hate and
held the world within my hands--
Neal Ross-Marysville CA


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Those are the prices. No min. I ordered 6 assorted rolls to try.



Alan Zucker zone 6b
You're never to old to learn. You can learn from both beginner and expert.





From: Andy Rutledge
Reply-To: Andy Rutledge
To:
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:18:12 -0600

----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Bockman"
Hi Alan,
I've been investigating them too. My concerns were that their annealing
process was electrical, not via heat-- although I'm sure the electricity
creates resistance=heat-- I'm not certain how that differs
metallurgically
if at all from traditional fire annealing.
David J. Bockman
-------------------

Gee whiz, at those prices one could certainly afford to find out (provided
that their minimums are not in the hundreds or thousands).

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Alan,

This type of wire has been sold for bonsai use before but it is not truly
suitable for bonsai unless it is annealed again. It has certainly been
annealed to some degree in the manufacturing process but in winding and
unwinding from large spools to smaller lengths, the wire is bent at least
twice, probably more and each bending stiffens the wire (work hardens it)
reducing the softness that is the whole point of annealed copper for bonsai in
the first place. Wire of the sort that you have purchased is the same kind
that I buy and anneal again to achieve the proper softness for bonsai use.
Annealing is a little bit mysterious but not beyond the capabilities of most.
It is a dirty, time consuming, and sometimes dangerous business even is you
anneal thousands of pounds of it a year for bonsai use as I do.

Julian R. Adams aka the copper wire guy
Adams' Bonsai
Lynchburg, VA

All,

When working with wire gauge numbers please keep in mind that there are
approximately 10 different standards in use around the world today. In
the US the most common is the American Wire Gauge (AWG) which is also
know as Brown & Sharpe. In the Japan it appears to be the Imperial or
British Standard (IBS). A general rule of thumb is that for the same
diameter wire the IBS is 2 larger than the AWG - an 8 gauge IBS is about
the same diameter as a 6 gauge AWG. For reference the diameters listed
below are very close to AWG (within round off error).

As someone else stated there may by differences between electrically and
heat annealed Cu wire. The biggest issue with electrically annealed
wire is that it is generally done at a fairly high rate of speed.
Annealing is a process that depends upon both temperature and time -
getting it hot may "anneal" it from an industrial standpoint, but may
not leave it as soft as we desire from a bonsai perspective. Finally,
Julian Adams sells high quality, well annealed Cu wire
at good prices as well as presenting some good information on bonsai in
International Bonsai and US East Coast forums.

Regards - Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf
Of Alan Zucker
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 11:04 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire

Just ordered some annealed copper wire. Here's a sample of the pricing
for
single rolls. They offer quantity and volume discounts.

1/4" DIA. = .250" - ( 6.35MM ) - 6 FEET @ $6.00
3/16" DIA. = .188" - ( 4.76MM ) - 10 FEET @ $6.00
6 GAUGE = .160" - ( 4.11MM ) - 12 FEET @ $6.00
8 GAUGE = .128" - ( 3.20MM ) - 20 FEET @ $6.25
10 GAUGE = .102" - ( 2.60MM ) - 30 FEET @ $6.50
11 GAUGE = .091" - ( 2.30MM ) - 40 FEET @ $6.75
12 GAUGE = .080" - ( 2.00MM ) - 50 FEET @ $6.75
14 GAUGE = .064" - ( 1.60MM ) - 80 FEET @ $7.00
16 GAUGE = .050" - ( 1.27MM ) -125 FEET @ $7.25
18 GAUGE = .040" - ( 1.00MM ) - 200 FEET @ $7.50
20 GAUGE = .032" - ( 0.82MM ) - 325 FEET @ $7.75
22 GAUGE = .025" - ( 0.65MM ) - 525 FEET @ $8.00
24 GAUGE = .020" - ( 0.52MM ) - 800 FEET @ $8.50
26 GAUGE = .016" - ( 0.41MM ) - 1295 FEET @ $10.00
28 GAUGE = .013" - ( 0.32MM ) - 2050 FEET @ $12.50
THEY CARRY SIZES FROM 2 GAUGE ( .250" ) TO 32 GAUGE ( .008" )

PARAMOUNT WIRE CO
www.parawire.com

First time I ordered from them. I'll let you know how it goes.

Alan Zucker zone 6b
You're never to old to learn. You can learn from both beginner and
expert.




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Ok, so if this process is the kind of annealing that I am familiar with,
then the wire is heated up to full red heat and then allowed to cool slowly.
Copper doesn't have the same kind of hardening that Steel would, so the
process of actually making the wire hard would be from drawing the metal out
into smaller diameters by passing them through tapered holes in iron plate,
or hammering.

Tempering on the other hand, is the process of carefully softening the metal
to retain various properties. I. E. in a knife blade you would want the
edge to stay hard so it would hold the sharpness, but the spine of the blade
you would want to be soft enough to not snap from stresses; the spine would
then be heated carefully on a red hot metal block to remove the hardness and
brittleness.

Metals get their maximum hardness by the size of the crystals of the
material. In some cases the metal is melted together with other materials
to make an alloy that is harder by causing those crystals to form smaller
and thus give greater strength and hardness to it. Carbon + Iron in Steel,
Zinc + Copper in Brass, and Tin + Copper in Bronze. We wouldn't be talking
about an Alloy like this when we talk about wire for Bonsai would we? If it
is straight Copper wire then it should anneal the same way every time.

Chili!
==================

"Marty & Patty Weiser" wrote in message
news:000001c2c9ae$eca983e0$c9e9bb3f@Weiser1...
All,

When working with wire gauge numbers please keep in mind that there are
approximately 10 different standards in use around the world today. In
the US the most common is the American Wire Gauge (AWG) which is also
know as Brown & Sharpe. In the Japan it appears to be the Imperial or
British Standard (IBS). A general rule of thumb is that for the same
diameter wire the IBS is 2 larger than the AWG - an 8 gauge IBS is about
the same diameter as a 6 gauge AWG. For reference the diameters listed
below are very close to AWG (within round off error).

As someone else stated there may by differences between electrically and
heat annealed Cu wire. The biggest issue with electrically annealed
wire is that it is generally done at a fairly high rate of speed.
Annealing is a process that depends upon both temperature and time -
getting it hot may "anneal" it from an industrial standpoint, but may
not leave it as soft as we desire from a bonsai perspective. Finally,
Julian Adams sells high quality, well annealed Cu wire
at good prices as well as presenting some good information on bonsai in
International Bonsai and US East Coast forums.

Regards - Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf
Of Alan Zucker
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 11:04 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire

Just ordered some annealed copper wire. Here's a sample of the pricing
for
single rolls. They offer quantity and volume discounts.

1/4" DIA. = .250" - ( 6.35MM ) - 6 FEET @ $6.00
3/16" DIA. = .188" - ( 4.76MM ) - 10 FEET @ $6.00
6 GAUGE = .160" - ( 4.11MM ) - 12 FEET @ $6.00
8 GAUGE = .128" - ( 3.20MM ) - 20 FEET @ $6.25
10 GAUGE = .102" - ( 2.60MM ) - 30 FEET @ $6.50
11 GAUGE = .091" - ( 2.30MM ) - 40 FEET @ $6.75
12 GAUGE = .080" - ( 2.00MM ) - 50 FEET @ $6.75
14 GAUGE = .064" - ( 1.60MM ) - 80 FEET @ $7.00
16 GAUGE = .050" - ( 1.27MM ) -125 FEET @ $7.25
18 GAUGE = .040" - ( 1.00MM ) - 200 FEET @ $7.50
20 GAUGE = .032" - ( 0.82MM ) - 325 FEET @ $7.75
22 GAUGE = .025" - ( 0.65MM ) - 525 FEET @ $8.00
24 GAUGE = .020" - ( 0.52MM ) - 800 FEET @ $8.50
26 GAUGE = .016" - ( 0.41MM ) - 1295 FEET @ $10.00
28 GAUGE = .013" - ( 0.32MM ) - 2050 FEET @ $12.50
THEY CARRY SIZES FROM 2 GAUGE ( .250" ) TO 32 GAUGE ( .008" )

PARAMOUNT WIRE CO
www.parawire.com

First time I ordered from them. I'll let you know how it goes.

Alan Zucker zone 6b
You're never to old to learn. You can learn from both beginner and
expert.




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--
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****
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----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Bockman" Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire


I agree...... Plus you could simply anneal it yourself, although I
probably
would like to see it done at least once so I know the appropriate color to
look for. Hey you potters out there, you could anneal a boatload of wire
lickety-split. )

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA

Dave,
You can do it yourself in a gas grill. At night you can see the color
clearly. When heated drop in water bucket to clean . The crud pops right
off.( doesn't harden, but we've discussed this before)
but,
This is a good spot to insert a note about the excellent annealed wire and
service from Julian Adams at JRABonsai. Why do it yourself or go anywhere
else when we have good services and prices right here on the IBC.
Dale Cochoy
Wild Things Bonsai Studio.

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To be honest, I have not done much wiring this summer. Time was at a premium. The thinner gauges are fine. I did not use any of the heavy gauge wire yet.

Alan Zucker
----- Original Message -----
From: David J. Bockman
To: Alan Zucker
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:43 PM
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire


It's been awhile, I'm curious how your experience was ordering from them.
Good?

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Alan Zucker
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 2:04 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Annealed Copper Wire


Just ordered some annealed copper wire. Here's a sample of the
pricing for
single rolls. They offer quantity and volume discounts.

1/4" DIA. = .250" - ( 6.35MM ) - 6 FEET @ $6.00
3/16" DIA. = .188" - ( 4.76MM ) - 10 FEET @ $6.00
6 GAUGE = .160" - ( 4.11MM ) - 12 FEET @ $6.00
8 GAUGE = .128" - ( 3.20MM ) - 20 FEET @ $6.25
10 GAUGE = .102" - ( 2.60MM ) - 30 FEET @ $6.50
11 GAUGE = .091" - ( 2.30MM ) - 40 FEET @ $6.75
12 GAUGE = .080" - ( 2.00MM ) - 50 FEET @ $6.75
14 GAUGE = .064" - ( 1.60MM ) - 80 FEET @ $7.00
16 GAUGE = .050" - ( 1.27MM ) -125 FEET @ $7.25
18 GAUGE = .040" - ( 1.00MM ) - 200 FEET @ $7.50
20 GAUGE = .032" - ( 0.82MM ) - 325 FEET @ $7.75
22 GAUGE = .025" - ( 0.65MM ) - 525 FEET @ $8.00
24 GAUGE = .020" - ( 0.52MM ) - 800 FEET @ $8.50
26 GAUGE = .016" - ( 0.41MM ) - 1295 FEET @ $10.00
28 GAUGE = .013" - ( 0.32MM ) - 2050 FEET @ $12.50
THEY CARRY SIZES FROM 2 GAUGE ( .250" ) TO 32 GAUGE ( .008" )

PARAMOUNT WIRE CO
www.parawire.com

First time I ordered from them. I'll let you know how it goes.

Alan Zucker zone 6b
You're never to old to learn. You can learn from both beginner
and expert.




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Hi All,

I just obtained some 3mm solid copper wire and I am also wondering
if it will require further annealing.
It is surplus from a big electrical job. Each 3mm strand was part of
a twisted cable about an inch thick.

I threw some of it onto eBay..
but I'll also give members of this newsgroup discounts on quantity.
(What's a fair price for 10 25' pieces?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=2378968 282


I'm going to try and wrap a ficus today, that is pretty large,
so I should soon know how well it works.

--
best regards,
Ra
http://surfpick.com
----------------------------------------------------
Try Lignum Vitae
----------------------------------------------------