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[IBC] black pines
In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud int
o candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:52:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kitsune Miko writes:
In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud in to candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko Kitsune: It is true: numerous and, at times, seemingly different methods of controlling needle growth can all leads to acceptable results. This fact is not unique to Japanese Black Pine. Regardless, my preference is to adjust the flow of sap within Japanese Black Pines (one of several two-needle pines) by dividing growth into three levels, i.e., strong, medium, and weak. Based on the specific level of growth for a particular branch, eith er 3-4 needle pairs (in strong areas), 7-8 needle pairs (in medium areas), or all needle pairs (in weak areas) will be allowed to remain. When the tree is not prone to weeping, I simply pull the needles. Once the tree has achieved a balanced appearance or balanced sapflow, one can then proceed with a generalized approach to maintenance, such as that which you are currently using. HOWEVER, I have not discussed candle pruning, and this is critical to achieving balance in Japanese Black pines. Essentially, half of each strong and medium strength candle is removed to transfer sap to the weaker areas in the tree. Rather than rambling through it now, I will post the procedure later this evening or tomorrow. Timing is critical. In summary, I differentiate between mature and immature designs and manipulate growth accordingly. I hope that this helps. Cordially, Michael Persiano members.aol.com/iasnob ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
Jeff:
Again, the this is only part of what I view as a comprehensive procedure. For example, Scots are extremely forgiving and often grow as a remarkable rate. Blacks, while forgiving, can be irrevocably damaged through excessive candle removal if the tree is not vigorous. The vigor of the tree should always be used as a guideline before subjecting the specimen to any procedure. For example, I just styled an 900-1,000 year old Douglas Fir. The branch reduction process was initiated in March with the goal of allowing sap t o gradually withdraw over a period of several months (to ensure the continued health of the upper portion of the tree. The initial styling was completed only 2 weeks ago. Cordially, Michael Persiano members.aol.com/iasnob In a message dated 7/22/2004 9:32:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL)" writes: Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud in to candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************* ******************************* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************* ******************************* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************* ******************************* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************* ******************************* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August.
Kitsune Miko, While I hope to answer your specific question I hope you'll allow me to pontificate some about what I've learned over two decades and at least 4 growing zones... Most blindly follow what the books say (or will say) without examining the underlying process. This is typically regurgitated technique learned from the Japanese without regard for subtleties or differences in climate. The techniques, if applied by rote, will "work", but are the results the best one can accomplish? What works in Philadelphia PA will not work as well in Philadelphia TX- or California for that manner. This seems especially true of pines as they are so slow to develop and so seemingly complicated. One of the most exciting things to see was the series of articles published by Bill Valavanis regarding pine theory! Pines are "cyclical bonsai"; needles are added each year, old ones are shed, etc. The needles don't continue to stay reduced- if they do one must be concerned about the vigor of the tree. There is absolutely no good reason to reduce needles on a pine in training or where one is still trying to develop structure. While growth control techniques may have the side effect of reduced needle size, these techniques are applied for a completely different purpose. To maintain a pine in perfect show condition at all times is not advisable. A good analogy is an athlete- they stay "in shape" and then fine tune for the big competition, then rest... There are specimen-specific variations in response, climactic and horticultural effects negating a one size fits all approach. Three aspects should be considered, IMO. Repotting- a vigorous pine will typically produce long needles. Root pruning and repotting will typically invigorate the tree after a recovery period- something you want to consider before applying needle reduction techniques. I.e., do not exacerbate yourself by root pruning, etc. and then expecting a healthy response that same year. It very well may not happen. One must balance the pot bound state with maintaining the necessary reserves to respond. Feeding and watering- traditional mindset regarding bonsai said this is how bonsai were kept small. Obviously this is not true, but when one is attempting needle reduction this must be carefully considered. The approach I use is to feed heavily all season when building structure but withhold fertilizer until after candles have been removed on a tree to be shown. Then fertilize organically. Growth removal- The method you describe of removing all new growth in August is one we typically use in TX for shohin pines- one allows energy to go into these first buds for as long as possible which then limits the amount of time and energy for the second flush to grow before dormancy. This will certainly work for larger pines as well- producing "shohin growth". Normally one does this around July 4th here. Hmmmm. but what happens if you are in the subtropics, i.e., my zone 9, where your tree sometimes skips it's nap! There goes the textbook approach previously proffered. I expect after 25 years you know how your trees respond. Typically what I would recommend is with at least 90 days before dormancy (or the show) would be the latest date to remove all growth and still be able to develop adequate buds. This a follow-up to the candle pinching that acts primarily to balance the tree out and encourage profuse new buds. Regardless of the dormancy date one would generally not cut off new growth before the needles harden off. I would encourage everyone to forget the books- learn to read the signs that indicate the correct action rather than using a mindless calendar method. Also, consider the method Ernie Kuo described in Bonsai Today where one can get additional growth cycles. It works. Sincerely, Jim Stone ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and
health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
OK picture approximately this:
\|/ / \ This is looking at the tip of the branch. The positions on a clock would be more like 12, 2, 4, 8, 10. This is the method used by Mitsuya in Japan. This is only the tip. You would thin out the buds if all popped back. You would take out two or three of the 5 buds. Other needles further back on the branch are kept for possible back budding. Again, you keep a few more than necessary. Remember this works in Japan and in California. I will not vouch for it working elsewhere. Kitsune Miko Brent wrote: I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and
health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
Brent:
As you now, Blacks are two-needle pines. Kitsune is referring to 5 pairs of needles (i.e, two needles per pair). Cordially, Michael Persiano In a message dated 7/22/2004 5:04:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brent writes: I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGML VEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************* *************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************* *************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************* *************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************* *************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************* ******************************* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************* ******************************* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
Jim:
California is not PA, PA is not Maine, etc. Timing will vary based on your region. Ideally, needles should not be thinned until they harden off. Why? Tender needles are easily damaged. If damage is severe and in quantity, the branch could lose it sap flow and die. Cordially, Michael Persiano members.aol.com/iasnob In a message dated 7/22/2004 2:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jim Stone writes: I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Kitsune Miko, While I hope to answer your specific question I hope you'll allow me to pontificate some about what I've learned over two decades and at least 4 growing zones... Most blindly follow what the books say (or will say) without examining the underlying process. This is typically regurgitated technique learned from the Japanese without regard for subtleties or differences in climate. The techniques, if applied by rote, will "work", but are the results the best one can accomplish? What works in Philadelphia PA will not work as well in Philadelphia TX- or California for that manner. This seems especially true of pines as they are so slow to develop and so seemingly complicated. One of the most exciting things to see was the series of articles published by Bill Valavanis regarding pine theory! Pines are "cyclical bonsai"; needles are added each year, old ones are shed, etc. The needles don't continue to stay reduced- if they do one must be concerned about the vigor of the tree. There is absolutely no good reason to reduce needles on a pine in training or where one is still trying to develop structure. While growth control techniques may have the side effect of reduced needle size, these techniques are applied for a completely different purpose. To maintain a pine in perfect show condition at all times is not advisable. A good analogy is an athlete- they stay "in shape" and then fine tune for the big competition, then rest... There are specimen-specific variations in response, climactic and horticultural effects negating a one size fits all approach. Three aspects should be considered, IMO. Repotting- a vigorous pine will typically produce long needles. Root pruning and repotting will typically invigorate the tree after a recovery period- something you want to consider before applying needle reduction techniques. I.e., do not exacerbate yourself by root pruning, etc. and then expecting a healthy response that same year. It very well may not happen. One must balance the pot bound state with maintaining the necessary reserves to respond. Feeding and watering- traditional mindset regarding bonsai said this is how bonsai were kept small. Obviously this is not true, but when one is attempting needle reduction this must be carefully considered. The approach I use is to feed heavily all season when building structure but withhold fertilizer until after candles have been removed on a tree to be shown. Then fertilize organically. Growth removal- The method you describe of removing all new growth in August is one we typically use in TX for shohin pines- one allows energy to go into these first buds for as long as possible which then limits the amount of time and energy for the second flush to grow before dormancy. This will certainly work for larger pines as well- producing "shohin growth". Normally one does this around July 4th here. Hmmmm. but what happens if you are in the subtropics, i.e., my zone 9, where your tree sometimes skips it's nap! There goes the textbook approach previously proffered. I expect after 25 years you know how your trees respond. Typically what I would recommend is with at least 90 days before dormancy (or the show) would be the latest date to remove all growth and still be able to develop adequate buds. This a follow-up to the candle pinching that acts primarily to balance the tree out and encourage profuse new buds. Regardless of the dormancy date one would generally not cut off new growth before the needles harden off. I would encourage everyone to forget the books- learn to read the signs that indicate the correct action rather than using a mindless calendar method. Also, consider the method Ernie Kuo described in Bonsai Today where one can get additional growth cycles. It works. Sincerely, Jim Stone ************************************************* ******************************* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************* ******************************* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
OK picture approximately this:
\|/ / \ This is looking at the tip of the branch. The positions on a clock would be more like 12, 2, 4, 8, 10. This is the method used by Mitsuya in Japan. This is only the tip. You would thin out the buds if all popped back. You would take out two or three of the 5 buds. Other needles further back on the branch are kept for possible back budding. Again, you keep a few more than necessary. Remember this works in Japan and in California. I will not vouch for it working elsewhere. Kitsune Miko Brent wrote: I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
If I am following the notes correctly, most on this board are advocating
removing part of the current years new growth for ramification, and in Michael's case thinning needles prior to partially cutting back candles? Most things I have read suggest removing the current years growth completely except in the fall. Kevin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitsune Miko" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: [IBC] black pines OK picture approximately this: \|/ / \ This is looking at the tip of the branch. The positions on a clock would be more like 12, 2, 4, 8, 10. This is the method used by Mitsuya in Japan. This is only the tip. You would thin out the buds if all popped back. You would take out two or three of the 5 buds. Other needles further back on the branch are kept for possible back budding. Again, you keep a few more than necessary. Remember this works in Japan and in California. I will not vouch for it working elsewhere. Kitsune Miko Brent wrote: I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
If I am following the notes correctly, most on this board are advocating
removing part of the current years new growth for ramification, and in Michael's case thinning needles prior to partially cutting back candles? Most things I have read suggest removing the current years growth completely except in the fall. Kevin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitsune Miko" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: [IBC] black pines OK picture approximately this: \|/ / \ This is looking at the tip of the branch. The positions on a clock would be more like 12, 2, 4, 8, 10. This is the method used by Mitsuya in Japan. This is only the tip. You would thin out the buds if all popped back. You would take out two or three of the 5 buds. Other needles further back on the branch are kept for possible back budding. Again, you keep a few more than necessary. Remember this works in Japan and in California. I will not vouch for it working elsewhere. Kitsune Miko Brent wrote: I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:52:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kitsune Miko writes:
In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud in to candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko Kitsune: It is true: numerous and, at times, seemingly different methods of controlling needle growth can all leads to acceptable results. This fact is not unique to Japanese Black Pine. Regardless, my preference is to adjust the flow of sap within Japanese Black Pines (one of several two-needle pines) by dividing growth into three levels, i.e., strong, medium, and weak. Based on the specific level of growth for a particular branch, eith er 3-4 needle pairs (in strong areas), 7-8 needle pairs (in medium areas), or all needle pairs (in weak areas) will be allowed to remain. When the tree is not prone to weeping, I simply pull the needles. Once the tree has achieved a balanced appearance or balanced sapflow, one can then proceed with a generalized approach to maintenance, such as that which you are currently using. HOWEVER, I have not discussed candle pruning, and this is critical to achieving balance in Japanese Black pines. Essentially, half of each strong and medium strength candle is removed to transfer sap to the weaker areas in the tree. Rather than rambling through it now, I will post the procedure later this evening or tomorrow. Timing is critical. In summary, I differentiate between mature and immature designs and manipulate growth accordingly. I hope that this helps. Cordially, Michael Persiano members.aol.com/iasnob ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] black pines
Kevin,
There are just too may ways to do black pines to assume you can take notes and get it right. You really have to work slowly and do what the plant tells you to do. That said.... There is an older method where you pinch new candles back 1/3 to pus growth bac into the tree. You do this as the candles come out. You still remove this year's growth, later, the date determined by your area. Needle pullling has always been around. The idea is to either pull all needles if you know how to do so without damaging latent buds, or to leave a thinned out version of needles, more than the buds you desire, as all will not necessiarly sprout. Or you can shoen last year's needles by cutting the needles back, leaving about 1/2 or so behind. This is a bit like partial leaf cutting. --- Kevin wrote: If I am following the notes correctly, most on this board are advocating removing part of the current years new growth for ramification, and in Michael's case thinning needles prior to partially cutting back candles? Most things I have read suggest removing the current years growth completely except in the fall. Kevin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitsune Miko" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: [IBC] black pines OK picture approximately this: \|/ / \ This is looking at the tip of the branch. The positions on a clock would be more like 12, 2, 4, 8, 10. This is the method used by Mitsuya in Japan. This is only the tip. You would thin out the buds if all popped back. You would take out two or three of the 5 buds. Other needles further back on the branch are kept for possible back budding. Again, you keep a few more than necessary. Remember this works in Japan and in California. I will not vouch for it working elsewhere. Kitsune Miko Brent wrote: I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of needles. Any help is appreciated. "Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGMLV EM01.e2k.ad.ge.com... Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM To: Subject: [IBC] black pines In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August. Others? Michael? Kitsune Miko **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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