G'day all...

I guess the question should be "how damp should my soil be?".

However, to the point...traditional wisdom tells us that our soil should be
relatively "dry" when wiring. For example, Tom Zane says in his Syllabus (4th
ed., 2001) that the soil "...should be relatively dry..."; and, Deborah
Koreshoff says the soil should be "dryish" (to the point that it is due for
watering), not turgid. I've heard the same thing several times in lectures,
classes and workshops as recently as 5 years back.

Now, I have recently been told that this thinking is changing...that there
should be more moisture than previously thought, in the soil.

I have researched at least 15 books, plus other sources, and curiously, the
subject is seldom discussed.

Is the traditional wisdom changing? Is there, in fact, significant evidence
that indicates more moisture?

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Have a good day...

Pat


Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle, AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all directions'

Good question: I hope I have as good an answer.
The main reason why it is recommended that the soil be allowed to dry out is
to prevent root rot. As we all know, some plants, such as water lilies and
calladiums can live and thrive with their roots submerged in water
indefinitely. Why is it good for them and not for other plants? Because
most plants need more air circulation to keep their roots healthy. Aha! So
could this mean that there is a structural difference between fibrous roots
and non-fibrous roots? Well, just by looking at them we can see that there
are many more tiny white feeder roots on the fibrous plants than on the
non-fibrous ones.
Since these feeder roots are the ones which require the most moisture, it
follows that they must be watered more frequently than the non-fibrous ones.
Hence, we keep broad leafed evergreens moister than needled evergreens. In
fact, the argument that some trees should be allowed to dry out almost
completely should be limited to such trees as black pines, Scots pines and
junipers. Broad leafed evergreens should never be allowed to go dry.
One more important consideration: soil composition and amount of sunshine.
The more organic material in your soil mix, the slower it is to lose
moisture. The more sun exposure, the faster the evaporation.
I hope this explanation does more to answer your question than to confuse
you.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Patterson"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:51 AM
Subject: [IBC] Wiring...how damp is my soil?


G'day all...

I guess the question should be "how damp should my soil be?".

However, to the point...traditional wisdom tells us that our soil should
be
relatively "dry" when wiring. For example, Tom Zane says in his Syllabus
(4th
ed., 2001) that the soil "...should be relatively dry..."; and, Deborah
Koreshoff says the soil should be "dryish" (to the point that it is due
for
watering), not turgid. I've heard the same thing several times in
lectures,
classes and workshops as recently as 5 years back.

Now, I have recently been told that this thinking is changing...that there
should be more moisture than previously thought, in the soil.

I have researched at least 15 books, plus other sources, and curiously,
the
subject is seldom discussed.

Is the traditional wisdom changing? Is there, in fact, significant
evidence
that indicates more moisture?

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Have a good day...

Pat


Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle, AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all directions'

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Good question: I hope I have as good an answer.
The main reason why it is recommended that the soil be allowed to dry out is
to prevent root rot. As we all know, some plants, such as water lilies and
calladiums can live and thrive with their roots submerged in water
indefinitely. Why is it good for them and not for other plants? Because
most plants need more air circulation to keep their roots healthy. Aha! So
could this mean that there is a structural difference between fibrous roots
and non-fibrous roots? Well, just by looking at them we can see that there
are many more tiny white feeder roots on the fibrous plants than on the
non-fibrous ones.
Since these feeder roots are the ones which require the most moisture, it
follows that they must be watered more frequently than the non-fibrous ones.
Hence, we keep broad leafed evergreens moister than needled evergreens. In
fact, the argument that some trees should be allowed to dry out almost
completely should be limited to such trees as black pines, Scots pines and
junipers. Broad leafed evergreens should never be allowed to go dry.
One more important consideration: soil composition and amount of sunshine.
The more organic material in your soil mix, the slower it is to lose
moisture. The more sun exposure, the faster the evaporation.
I hope this explanation does more to answer your question than to confuse
you.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Patterson"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:51 AM
Subject: [IBC] Wiring...how damp is my soil?


G'day all...

I guess the question should be "how damp should my soil be?".

However, to the point...traditional wisdom tells us that our soil should
be
relatively "dry" when wiring. For example, Tom Zane says in his Syllabus
(4th
ed., 2001) that the soil "...should be relatively dry..."; and, Deborah
Koreshoff says the soil should be "dryish" (to the point that it is due
for
watering), not turgid. I've heard the same thing several times in
lectures,
classes and workshops as recently as 5 years back.

Now, I have recently been told that this thinking is changing...that there
should be more moisture than previously thought, in the soil.

I have researched at least 15 books, plus other sources, and curiously,
the
subject is seldom discussed.

Is the traditional wisdom changing? Is there, in fact, significant
evidence
that indicates more moisture?

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Have a good day...

Pat


Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle, AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all directions'

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Sounds like a song title, "How dapm is my soil, how
high is the sky"

Pat,

I don't know the new wet thinking, but I may be able
to shed some light on the old dry thinking.

It is thought that when the plant cells are full of
water that it is easier to crack a branch. Think of
the cell structure of fresh celery and that of not so
fresh. Not that we would ever let our plants get as
dry as limp celery, but you get the comparison. I
have found this to be true in my practice.

Perhaps the alternative is that when the cells swell
back up with water, you wire cut quicker.

Dunno

Kitsune Miko
--- Pat Patterson wrote:

G'day all...

I guess the question should be "how damp should my
soil be?".

However, to the point...traditional wisdom tells us
that our soil should be
relatively "dry" when wiring. For example, Tom Zane
says in his Syllabus (4th
ed., 2001) that the soil "...should be relatively
dry..."; and, Deborah
Koreshoff says the soil should be "dryish" (to the
point that it is due for
watering), not turgid. I've heard the same thing
several times in lectures,
classes and workshops as recently as 5 years back.

Now, I have recently been told that this thinking is
changing...that there
should be more moisture than previously thought, in
the soil.

I have researched at least 15 books, plus other
sources, and curiously, the
subject is seldom discussed.

Is the traditional wisdom changing? Is there, in
fact, significant evidence
that indicates more moisture?

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Have a good day...

Pat


Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle,
AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all
directions'


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen
Gardenworks++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++



=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Pat: It is helpful to consider the source. Who is saying that
there should be more moisture in the soil? And what is their
basis or reasoning for this?
As others have mentioned, it is better to have the tree a
little on the dry side when you wire to reduce your risk of
branches snapping as you bend them.
Other answers seemed to be directed to general soil
humidity rather than at the time of wiring, so I guess the
questions weren't quite as clear as hoped. Of course, general
soil humidity requirements will vary by tree. Some like it pretty
wet and others prefer a more arid soil environment.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Patterson

G'day all...
I guess the question should be "how damp should my soil be?".

However, to the point...traditional wisdom tells us that our soil
should be
relatively "dry" when wiring. For example, Tom Zane says in his
Syllabus (4th ed., 2001) that the soil "...should be relatively
dry..."; and, Deborah
Koreshoff says the soil should be "dryish" (to the point that it
is due for
watering), not turgid. I've heard the same thing several times
in lectures,
classes and workshops as recently as 5 years back.

Now, I have recently been told that this thinking is
changing...that there
should be more moisture than previously thought, in the soil.

I have researched at least 15 books, plus other sources, and
curiously, the subject is seldom discussed.

Is the traditional wisdom changing? Is there, in fact,
significant evidence
that indicates more moisture?

Would like to hear your thoughts.
Have a good day...
Pat Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle, AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all directions'

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi there
Going out on a limb here, different to other replies.
Ok, probably stating obvious here, especially to people who probably know
more about bonsai than I do, but moisture content in soil is no indication
of moisutre content in plant. I agree with the replies that a plant that has
moist soil may let the branches bend easier to avoid snapping, due to the
higher moisture content in plant.
My guess is this dry soil v's dryish during wiring is cos during wiring the
plant is going to get a bit of movement. Moist soil may allow the whole root
structure to move, possibly uplifting some roots. On the other hand if the
soil is completely dry then possibly the opposite will happen. You may
fracture or even snap off roots as it doesn't allow movement, and possibly
fracture the trunk.
This is only my guess, but I take it that it refers to root damage as
really, you could have moist soil from a recent water, yet previous to that
it was dry and plant was almost wilted. Yes the soil is moist, but doesn't
mean the plant has high moisture content for wiring, as the plant is yet to
take it up fully. Branches may snap. On the other hand yes the soil may
become dry, maybe after 1 warm day, but the plant has a high moisture
content. It may be fine to water.
Also the soil could be just freshly watered, as compared to dryish. Freshly
watered I would think would be better IF you go with the theory that the
branches will bend better, but bad idea for movement of root ball in soil.
Really if it isn't so much what I am talking about, and more to do with
higher moisture in the plant then books should make references to plant
condition and "watering well in the few days before wiring" rather than soil
moisture content.
I assume it isn't much discussed as it doesn't really matter too much. IMO I
would just make sure plant isn't stressed, soil is anything but "saturated"
so dry to dryish would be ok, and if anything, maybe spray branches with
water from mist bottle to help with bending.
Only thing I've ever read that perhaps isn't too obvious until you hear/read
or experience it, is to not wire a recently rootpruned plant as movement of
it in the soil may damage new root shoots
Cheers
Andrew
--
Mid North Coast
New South Wales
Australia


"Pat Patterson" wrote in message
...
G'day all...

I guess the question should be "how damp should my soil be?".

However, to the point...traditional wisdom tells us that our soil should
be
relatively "dry" when wiring. For example, Tom Zane says in his Syllabus
(4th
ed., 2001) that the soil "...should be relatively dry..."; and, Deborah
Koreshoff says the soil should be "dryish" (to the point that it is due
for
watering), not turgid. I've heard the same thing several times in
lectures,
classes and workshops as recently as 5 years back.

Now, I have recently been told that this thinking is changing...that there
should be more moisture than previously thought, in the soil.

I have researched at least 15 books, plus other sources, and curiously,
the
subject is seldom discussed.

Is the traditional wisdom changing? Is there, in fact, significant
evidence
that indicates more moisture?

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Have a good day...

Pat


Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle, AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all directions'

"Andrew G" wrote in message ...
Hi there
Going out on a limb here, different to other replies.
Ok, probably stating obvious here, especially to people who probably know
more about bonsai than I do, but moisture content in soil is no indication
of moisutre content in plant.

I've got to agree with you Andrew; I assumed that was another "Old
bonsai master tale" that didn't have much basis in reality. Since I
spent yesterday inoculating lilacs with "sudden oak death", I can
certainly say that dry soil helps when you are tipping a plant over,
so muddy soil doesn't get over everything! I imagine that with
wiring, it's the same.

With a stalk of celery, high turgor will lead to a "snap", whereas
wilted celery will bend. True. But the snappiness of a woody branch
depends on the *wood*, which is dead and not responding to any change
in water content of the soil. If you think about the anatomy of a
woody tree branch, the only tissue that is going to react to changes
in water content is the inner bark. I might worry about snapping
turgid little twigs, but I'm not going to worry *at all* about larger
branches.

Nina, hoping Frances will give us a little rain here in MD.

Michael said:

The logic works for me, but experience tells me otherwise. I have
bent
some extremely old branches with tight growth rings. The trees that
were allowed to dry out before the stylings were significantly easier
to
bend. I attribute this to the amazing strength of the water swollen
inner bark.

The first step is to reason something out, as I did in my post, but
the second step is to test the hypothesis. There are two hypotheses I
can come up with: one, that increased tension in the water columns of
the xylem with drying-out makes the branch more flexible, or two, that
turgor of the inner bark has some effect on the breakability of the
bark (I can't think of any way that the inner bark could influence the
wood, sorry!).

I like the former hypothesis. To test it, I'd use tomato plants.
Tomatos transport water to the leaves by two different methods:
positive pressure, pushing water up the stem by an osmotic pump or:
negative pressure, using transpiration to PULL water up the stem. If
the pressure of water in the xylem has an effect of flexibility, then
I'd expect the tomatos using the ionic pump to snap easily, and the
tomatoes using transpiration to snap. I have tools to measure soil
water potential and leaf water potential; I have tools that can
measure the pressure I'm putting on stems. The only problem I can see
is that I'd be exposing the plants to different levels of humidity,
and that would be a complicating factor.

However, if I got promising results with the tomato, I could try:
sugar maple saplings!!!! In spring, before leaves emerge, maples use
an osmotic pump to move water up the stem ("the sap is running").
After leaves emerge, maples use a transpiration pump.

Now you've got me all excited! Except today I am grinding up soybean
roots to use the tissue for PCR analysis!


Nina. Yes. I dream about experiments.