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#1
14-10-2004, 05:33 PM
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[IBC] Name Meaning
Can any of you folks who know Japanese tell me what the name Natsukoyuki
means? (It's an orchid hybrid.) Am I correct in assuming it is accented on the first and third syllables? Iris I am not fat. I need repotting. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#3
15-10-2004, 03:24 AM
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This info is good. I'll be adding it up in our "Bonsai Dictionary", could
be useful. That is, I'll add it now, and it'll appear when the revamp of the site goes public, which is a while away still. Too much to do  On 15/10/2004 15:19:39, wrote: Iris: FWIW Dept. Natsu = summer Koyu = peculiar or characteristic Ki = tree ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#4
15-10-2004, 05:07 AM
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Nic: I wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight
out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Much more useful is Yuji Yoshimura's classic listing of Japanese names for trees which can be found in Appendix 3 of Yoshimura & Halford's The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and Landscapes. In the version I'm looking at now, it is on pp. 184-205. There are 340 listings from abura-giri to zumi. Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Steenhout This info is good. I'll be adding it up in our "Bonsai Dictionary", could be useful. That is, I'll add it now, and it'll appear when the revamp of the site goes public, which is a while away still. Too much to do On 15/10/2004 15:19:39, wrote: Iris: FWIW Dept. Natsu = summer Koyu = peculiar or characteristic Ki = tree ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#5
15-10-2004, 05:58 AM
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wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight
out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Ok, fair enough  Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed. There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books. Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one) doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc. Just my 2 cents. N ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#6
15-10-2004, 01:28 PM
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Natsu = summer
Koyu = peculiar or characteristic Ki = tree The plant in question is a compact white Cattleya, smaller than standard size. According to Bill Valavanis, natsu means summer, as you said, but he divided the rest of the word differently. Yuki means snow and ko may mean small, and that explanation makes the most sense. Many white flowers are given names relating to "snow in summer", so the name means something like a little snow in summer or snow in summer on something small. Can't be more definite unless the Royal Horticultural Society starts publishing its database in Kanji. If you're curious, you can find it on the Web as Cattleya Angelwalker x Hawaiian Wedding Song 'Snow White.' Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
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#7
15-10-2004, 05:57 PM
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Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Steenhout wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Ok, fair enough Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed. There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books. Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one) doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc. Just my 2 cents. N ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#8
15-10-2004, 05:57 PM
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Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Steenhout wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Ok, fair enough Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed. There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books. Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one) doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc. Just my 2 cents. N ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#9
15-10-2004, 07:33 PM
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Alan:
The Yoshimura book is several decades old and in the last three years I found that many of its references and listed usages have been replaced in colloquial Japanese. A language is a living thing and terminology does change over time. I have found that out while visiting my native Hungary where my speech pattern and use of idioms were referred to as "quaint" by the youngsters. I don't believe that the lists of terms as tree names used in Yoshimura's book are subject to copyright. But I could be wrong. I am very supportive of Nic's idea of having a Romanized Japanese - English tree name cross reference list. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Alan Walker Sent: 2004. október 15. 11:57 To: Subject: [IBC] Name Meaning Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Steenhout wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Ok, fair enough Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed. There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books. Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one) doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc. Just my 2 cents. N ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#10
15-10-2004, 07:33 PM
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Alan:
The Yoshimura book is several decades old and in the last three years I found that many of its references and listed usages have been replaced in colloquial Japanese. A language is a living thing and terminology does change over time. I have found that out while visiting my native Hungary where my speech pattern and use of idioms were referred to as "quaint" by the youngsters. I don't believe that the lists of terms as tree names used in Yoshimura's book are subject to copyright. But I could be wrong. I am very supportive of Nic's idea of having a Romanized Japanese - English tree name cross reference list. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Alan Walker Sent: 2004. október 15. 11:57 To: Subject: [IBC] Name Meaning Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Steenhout wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Ok, fair enough Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed. There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books. Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one) doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc. Just my 2 cents. N ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#11
15-10-2004, 09:06 PM
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Direct, literal translations from the Japanese are
always tricky. I got this message from a poetry group where the Japanese speaker used his Japanese dictionary for a definition. There is no mention of Trident or in this definition. Kitsune Miko The haiku was: Momiji Frogfoot leaves Dancing in the sunlight Blushing Copyright 10-14-04 by the Poetess Kitsune Miko "Momiji" is ambiguous word in Japanese. My Japanese dictionary explains three meaning as follows. 1.The phenomena that leaves turn yellow or red in late autumn. 2 .Leaves turned red 3. Another name for maple and, in my Japanese-English dictionary Momiji; 1.a maple; 2.red leaves So, I translated "momiji" into ".red leaves", but I had better change it. --- Peter wrote: Alan: The Yoshimura book is several decades old and in the last three years I found that many of its references and listed usages have been replaced in colloquial Japanese. A language is a living thing and terminology does change over time. I have found that out while visiting my native Hungary where my speech pattern and use of idioms were referred to as "quaint" by the youngsters. I don't believe that the lists of terms as tree names used in Yoshimura's book are subject to copyright. But I could be wrong. I am very supportive of Nic's idea of having a Romanized Japanese - English tree name cross reference list. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Alan Walker Sent: 2004. október 15. 11:57 To: Subject: [IBC] Name Meaning Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Steenhout wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary. Ok, fair enough Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree names. While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed. There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books. Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one) doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc. Just my 2 cents. N ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#12
15-10-2004, 09:27 PM
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I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the
Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary" covering some horticultural and some japanese terms: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be transformed a little bit. The transformations intended will be that the information will be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as many as we want, and including a category for major tree species name in japanese would be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that way so data can be added once the new site goes live (I'm *hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't hold your breath). I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to be able to summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In that summary can then be added something like: If you want more information, here are some book as resources", or something like that. Nic ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#13
15-10-2004, 09:27 PM
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I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the
Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary" covering some horticultural and some japanese terms: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be transformed a little bit. The transformations intended will be that the information will be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as many as we want, and including a category for major tree species name in japanese would be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that way so data can be added once the new site goes live (I'm *hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't hold your breath). I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to be able to summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In that summary can then be added something like: If you want more information, here are some book as resources", or something like that. Nic ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#14
15-10-2004, 11:14 PM
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-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary" covering some horticultural and some japanese terms: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php __________________________________________________ _______ There's a decent start here, but plenty of holes. Also, some "definitions/translations" need revisiting for accuracy, e.g. suiseki. __________________________________________________ _______ As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be transformed a little bit. The transformations intended will be that the information will be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as many as we want, and including a category for major tree species name in japanese would be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that way so data can be added once the new site goes live (I'm *hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't hold your breath). I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to be able to summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In that summary can then be added something like: If you want more information, here are some book as resources", or something like that. Nic __________________________________________________ _______ Exactly! I think you are right on track with this, Nic. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#15
15-10-2004, 11:14 PM
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-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable. As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary" covering some horticultural and some japanese terms: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php __________________________________________________ _______ There's a decent start here, but plenty of holes. Also, some "definitions/translations" need revisiting for accuracy, e.g. suiseki. __________________________________________________ _______ As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be transformed a little bit. The transformations intended will be that the information will be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as many as we want, and including a category for major tree species name in japanese would be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that way so data can be added once the new site goes live (I'm *hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't hold your breath). I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source ultimately. In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to be able to summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In that summary can then be added something like: If you want more information, here are some book as resources", or something like that. Nic __________________________________________________ _______ Exactly! I think you are right on track with this, Nic. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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