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Old 14-10-2004, 06:33 PM
 
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Default [IBC] Name Meaning

Can any of you folks who know Japanese tell me what the name Natsukoyuki
means? (It's an orchid hybrid.) Am I correct in assuming it is accented on the
first and third syllables?
Iris
I am not fat. I need repotting.

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Old 15-10-2004, 04:24 AM
Nicolas Steenhout
 
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This info is good. I'll be adding it up in our "Bonsai Dictionary", could
be useful. That is, I'll add it now, and it'll appear when the revamp of
the site goes public, which is a while away still. Too much to do

On 15/10/2004 15:19:39, wrote:
Iris: FWIW Dept.
Natsu = summer
Koyu = peculiar or characteristic
Ki = tree



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  #4   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 06:07 AM
Alan Walker
 
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Nic: I wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight
out of Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.
Much more useful is Yuji Yoshimura's classic listing of
Japanese names for trees which can be found in Appendix 3 of
Yoshimura & Halford's The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and
Landscapes. In the version I'm looking at now, it is on pp.
184-205. There are 340 listings from abura-giri to zumi.
Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which
everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree
names.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

This info is good. I'll be adding it up in our "Bonsai
Dictionary", could
be useful. That is, I'll add it now, and it'll appear when the
revamp of
the site goes public, which is a while away still. Too much to
do

On 15/10/2004 15:19:39, wrote:
Iris: FWIW Dept.
Natsu = summer
Koyu = peculiar or characteristic
Ki = tree


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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #5   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 06:58 AM
Nicolas Steenhout
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight
out of Kodansha's
Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.




Ok, fair enough

Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which
everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree
names.


While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I have to say
that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was looking for information,
only to be referred to a book, I would not be impressed.

There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books or why
refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best option.. Could
be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to keep books.
Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could be that the
person lives in a small town where the only bookstore (if there is one)
doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the information at
the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc.

Just my 2 cents.

N


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************************************************** ******************************
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  #6   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 02:28 PM
Iris Cohen
 
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Default

Natsu = summer
Koyu = peculiar or characteristic
Ki = tree

The plant in question is a compact white Cattleya, smaller than standard size.
According to Bill Valavanis, natsu means summer, as you said, but he divided
the rest of the word differently. Yuki means snow and ko may mean small, and
that explanation makes the most sense. Many white flowers are given names
relating to "snow in summer", so the name means something like a little snow in
summer or snow in summer on something small. Can't be more definite unless the
Royal Horticultural Society starts publishing its database in Kanji.
If you're curious, you can find it on the Web as Cattleya Angelwalker x
Hawaiian Wedding Song 'Snow White.'

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)
  #7   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 06:57 PM
Alan Walker
 
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Default

Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for
major tree species is very practical and doable.
I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to
get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides
referring them to the source ultimately.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of

Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.

Ok, fair enough

Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which

everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree
names.

While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I
have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was
looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would
not be impressed.

There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books
or why
refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best
option.. Could
be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to
keep books.
Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could
be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore
(if there is one)
doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the
information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc.

Just my 2 cents.
N

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #8   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 06:57 PM
Alan Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for
major tree species is very practical and doable.
I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to
get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides
referring them to the source ultimately.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of

Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.

Ok, fair enough

Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which

everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree
names.

While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I
have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was
looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would
not be impressed.

There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books
or why
refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best
option.. Could
be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to
keep books.
Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could
be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore
(if there is one)
doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the
information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc.

Just my 2 cents.
N

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #9   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 08:33 PM
Peter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alan:

The Yoshimura book is several decades old and in the last three years I
found that many of its references and listed usages have been replaced in
colloquial Japanese.
A language is a living thing and terminology does change over time. I have
found that out while visiting my native Hungary where my speech pattern and
use of idioms were referred to as "quaint" by the youngsters.
I don't believe that the lists of terms as tree names used in Yoshimura's
book are subject to copyright. But I could be wrong.
I am very supportive of Nic's idea of having a Romanized Japanese - English
tree name cross reference list.

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Alan Walker
Sent: 2004. október 15. 11:57
To:
Subject: [IBC] Name Meaning

Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for
major tree species is very practical and doable.
I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to
get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides
referring them to the source ultimately.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of

Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.

Ok, fair enough

Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which

everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree
names.

While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I
have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was
looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would
not be impressed.

There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books
or why
refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best
option.. Could
be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to
keep books.
Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could
be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore
(if there is one)
doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the
information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc.

Just my 2 cents.
N

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #10   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 08:33 PM
Peter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alan:

The Yoshimura book is several decades old and in the last three years I
found that many of its references and listed usages have been replaced in
colloquial Japanese.
A language is a living thing and terminology does change over time. I have
found that out while visiting my native Hungary where my speech pattern and
use of idioms were referred to as "quaint" by the youngsters.
I don't believe that the lists of terms as tree names used in Yoshimura's
book are subject to copyright. But I could be wrong.
I am very supportive of Nic's idea of having a Romanized Japanese - English
tree name cross reference list.

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Alan Walker
Sent: 2004. október 15. 11:57
To:
Subject: [IBC] Name Meaning

Good points, at least most of them. I think that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the Japanese names for
major tree species is very practical and doable.
I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to
get people to this extensive copyrighted information besides
referring them to the source ultimately.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these straight out of

Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.

Ok, fair enough

Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in print, which

everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for Japanese tree
names.

While I understand the concept and where you're coming from, I
have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC site and was
looking for information, only to be referred to a book, I would
not be impressed.

There are *several* factors why some people don't acquire books
or why
refering them to a book from the site isn't always the best
option.. Could
be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's no space to
keep books.
Could be that the person in question doesn't want books. Could
be that the person lives in a small town where the only bookstore
(if there is one)
doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person wants the
information at the time they are surfing (like 3am). Etc.

Just my 2 cents.
N

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++



  #11   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 10:06 PM
Kitsune Miko
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Direct, literal translations from the Japanese are
always tricky.

I got this message from a poetry group where the
Japanese speaker used his Japanese dictionary for a
definition. There is no mention of Trident or in this
definition.

Kitsune Miko

The haiku was:

Momiji

Frogfoot leaves
Dancing in the sunlight
Blushing

Copyright 10-14-04 by the
Poetess Kitsune Miko




"Momiji" is ambiguous word in Japanese. My Japanese
dictionary explains
three meaning as follows.
1.The phenomena that leaves turn yellow or red in late
autumn.
2 .Leaves turned red
3. Another name for maple
and, in my Japanese-English dictionary Momiji; 1.a
maple; 2.red leaves
So, I translated "momiji" into ".red leaves", but I
had better change
it.

--- Peter wrote:

Alan:

The Yoshimura book is several decades old and in the
last three years I
found that many of its references and listed usages
have been replaced in
colloquial Japanese.
A language is a living thing and terminology does
change over time. I have
found that out while visiting my native Hungary
where my speech pattern and
use of idioms were referred to as "quaint" by the
youngsters.
I don't believe that the lists of terms as tree
names used in Yoshimura's
book are subject to copyright. But I could be wrong.
I am very supportive of Nic's idea of having a
Romanized Japanese - English
tree name cross reference list.

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club
] On Behalf Of
Alan Walker
Sent: 2004. október 15. 11:57
To:
Subject: [IBC] Name Meaning

Good points, at least most of them. I think
that starting
a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the
Japanese names for
major tree species is very practical and doable.
I just don't really see a practical (and
legal) way to
get people to this extensive copyrighted information
besides
referring them to the source ultimately.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

wouldn't put much stock in it. I just got these

straight out of
Kodansha's Romanized Japanese-English Dictionary.

Ok, fair enough

Since this is a classic bonsai book, long in

print, which
everyone who is serious about bonsai should have, I
recommend
that you simply refer them to this resource for
Japanese tree
names.

While I understand the concept and where you're
coming from, I
have to say that as a *user*, if I came to the IBC
site and was
looking for information, only to be referred to a
book, I would
not be impressed.

There are *several* factors why some people don't
acquire books
or why
refering them to a book from the site isn't always
the best
option.. Could
be that it can't be afforded. Could be that there's
no space to
keep books.
Could be that the person in question doesn't want
books. Could
be that the person lives in a small town where the
only bookstore
(if there is one)
doesn't carry this book. Could be that the person
wants the
information at the time they are surfing (like 3am).
Etc.

Just my 2 cents.
N


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon
Manakitivipart++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon
Manakitivipart++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++



=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #12   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 10:27 PM
Nicolas Steenhout
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the
Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable.

As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary" covering some
horticultural and some japanese terms:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php

As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be transformed a
little bit. The transformations intended will be that the information will
be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as many as we
want, and including a category for major tree species name in japanese would
be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that way so data can be added once the
new site goes live (I'm *hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't
hold your breath).

I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this
extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source
ultimately.

In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to be able to
summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In that summary can then
be added something like: If you want more information, here are some book
as resources", or something like that.

Nic

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #13   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 10:27 PM
Nicolas Steenhout
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing the
Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and doable.

As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary" covering some
horticultural and some japanese terms:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php

As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be transformed a
little bit. The transformations intended will be that the information will
be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as many as we
want, and including a category for major tree species name in japanese would
be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that way so data can be added once the
new site goes live (I'm *hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't
hold your breath).

I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get people to this
extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the source
ultimately.

In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to be able to
summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In that summary can then
be added something like: If you want more information, here are some book
as resources", or something like that.

Nic

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #14   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 12:14 AM
Alan Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing
the
Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and
doable.

As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary"
covering some
horticultural and some japanese terms:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php
__________________________________________________ _______
There's a decent start here, but plenty of holes. Also, some
"definitions/translations" need revisiting for accuracy, e.g.
suiseki.
__________________________________________________ _______
As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be
transformed a
little bit. The transformations intended will be that the
information will
be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as
many as we want, and including a category for major tree species
name in japanese would be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that
way so data can be added once the new site goes live (I'm
*hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't hold your
breath).

I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get
people to this
extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the
source
ultimately.

In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to
be able to summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In
that summary can then be added something like: If you want more
information, here are some book as resources", or something like
that.
Nic
__________________________________________________ _______
Exactly! I think you are right on track with this, Nic.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #15   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 12:14 AM
Alan Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Steenhout

I think that starting a reference is a good idea, too. Listing
the
Japanese names for major tree species is very practical and
doable.

As you likely know, we already have a bit of "dictionary"
covering some
horticultural and some japanese terms:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/bondic.php
__________________________________________________ _______
There's a decent start here, but plenty of holes. Also, some
"definitions/translations" need revisiting for accuracy, e.g.
suiseki.
__________________________________________________ _______
As I am working on revamping the site, this section will be
transformed a
little bit. The transformations intended will be that the
information will
be easier to manage and to add to. Categories could be added, as
many as we want, and including a category for major tree species
name in japanese would be a fantastic idea. I'll set it up that
way so data can be added once the new site goes live (I'm
*hoping* to have it in a month's time, but don't hold your
breath).

I just don't really see a practical (and legal) way to get
people to this
extensive copyrighted information besides referring them to the
source
ultimately.

In general, I think that we have enough knowledgeable people to
be able to summarise info, or produce "custom" information. In
that summary can then be added something like: If you want more
information, here are some book as resources", or something like
that.
Nic
__________________________________________________ _______
Exactly! I think you are right on track with this, Nic.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++



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