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#31
24-11-2004, 06:36 PM
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Anil Kaushik wrote:
Nina I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. snip Please answer the first sentence. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" Anil: With the encouragement of my wife, the queen of compost, Anita Hawkins, this year I started adding compost to my soil as part of the organic component. I have found that *sifted* compost (note the emphasis) is not dense, but is actually very fluffy and water still drains well from it. It is certainly not the largest part of my soil, generally no more than about a third, but I had pretty good results this year. The more coarse part of my soil is composted bark, turface, and gravel. I am not as strict in measuring it as some are. I have not had any problems with root rot, etc. that could happen if I weren't careful. This provides, I feel, the natural organic elements that the tree is going to look for in nature. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#32
24-11-2004, 07:47 PM
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HI Craig
I agree with your wife I started making compost home made the very best is made with oak leaves or Chestnut leaves this year I had a huge mushroom and few small ones that come out of it the compost is very soft and as you do I will use wuth crushed red lava or granite 3 to 5 mm 1/3 of composta and the rest garnite or lava I already stared with some and roots are very nice and the soil dires accordning as you wish if you dd some bark of sequoia I have few sequoias in my park and 2 has been cut and the bark is available first I sterilize it in steam with microwawes and than I cut it in small dices , according teh mix I do can take 1 week to dry Craig Cowing wrote: Anil Kaushik wrote: Nina I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. snip Please answer the first sentence. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" Anil: With the encouragement of my wife, the queen of compost, Anita Hawkins, this year I started adding compost to my soil as part of the organic component. I have found that *sifted* compost (note the emphasis) is not dense, but is actually very fluffy and water still drains well from it. It is certainly not the largest part of my soil, generally no more than about a third, but I had pretty good results this year. The more coarse part of my soil is composted bark, turface, and gravel. I am not as strict in measuring it as some are. I have not had any problems with root rot, etc. that could happen if I weren't careful. This provides, I feel, the natural organic elements that the tree is going to look for in nature. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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#34
24-11-2004, 09:00 PM
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Thanks for the thumbnail on soil. One subject that needs some thought is
the bark content in one's mix. For years I've been debunking the use of decomposed bark in bonsai soil. Some time ago, Brent Walston came up with his statement that fresh bark is far better. Since I am of the same opinion, I'd like to add my 2c. The size of the bark pieces is much more important than the stage of decay. I use Cedarcide (reg. TM) which comes in various sizes down to 1/4". It can be used right out of the package without sifting, and has its own natural anti-insect protection. It is not decomposed at all, and has never caused any leaching problems for me. It does start to rot after 2 years, but will carry over for 3 in a pinch ... and I guess we all repot by then, anyway. P.S. I have no financial interest in Cedarcide. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina Shishkoff" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: [IBC] Microelemnts ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#35
24-11-2004, 10:46 PM
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Jim Lewis wrote: Oh, phoo! You've heard of "safe sex?" We're practicing "Safe Bonsai growing." danger and to know haw to play the right rules is a part of the game too safe .. is like eat syntehtic meat instead of a T bone steak IMHO ! When you add dirt you cannot avoid adding pathogens (unless, of course, you sterilize the dirt, and I know you don't) and, like casual sexual partners and STD, while chances are fairly good that the pathogen you add will NOT hurt your tree, there is the chance that it will. trees always lived in nature and patogenes made them stronger ( the one that survived at least ) and a lot survived and made a strong breed As for compost, GOOD compost is self-sterilized. It gets HOT in a good, well-turned compost pile. Still, compost is pretty fine- grained soil and since it is the product of decay so by definition if it has decay bacteria included in it, your compost will only get finer as time goes on. That clogs up your soil. yes but generally it takes two years to make a good compost I use it after this time when I need repotting It is often forgotten, but roots need more than water and nutrients. They need air. Clogged soil interferes with the provision of air to the roots. yes of course but in real nature you have grit and soil and trees live in the one tehy are fitted to live in .. a seed in a wrong soil wither and die some prefer in calcar some acidic some live in clay or silica others in swamp of course we have , due to the reduced space of a pot to create the ideal place for roots to develope but if we only use non-soil and fertilizers we do a sort of syntetic environment similar to hydroculture but instead of water we use a moist solid medium the non -soil! it is not a normal environment , and beside that patogenes are carried by wind insects animal dejections and whatever unless you grow your bonsais under a glass bell cut form whatever contact with the external world but this is almost possible now or in labs, but not during the centuries before ,and Bonsai art survived patogenes and all different soils and mix Over time, the pine bark we use decomposes bit and actually becomes a kind of soil in our pot. About then, though, we repot. exactly and air does not circulate as well as in the beginning of repotting .. in this way we could grow bonsai in chopped glass grit and add macro and micro elements when needed but would it be to make Bonsai ? :-) a doctor told me lately we are not healty in the meaniong of viruses or desease -free we are filled up with viruses and microbs that cannot develope and kill us as we have immuno defenses but to have tehm we must be in contanct with viruses or micronbs to develope them MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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#36
25-11-2004, 01:26 AM
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Theo: A big difference is that I don't care much if a tree in the
forest dies of natural causes, but I care a whole lot if any of my bonsai die for any reason. I want much better survival rates than nature, so for me the nature comparison is moot. I'll continue to practice risk management for bonsai. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- Jim Lewis wrote: Oh, phoo! You've heard of "safe sex?" We're practicing "Safe Bonsai growing." From: Theo danger and to know haw to play the right rules is a part of the game too safe .. is like eat syntehtic meat instead of a T bone steak IMHO ! When you add dirt you cannot avoid adding pathogens (unless, of course, you sterilize the dirt, and I know you don't) and, like casual sexual partners and STD, while chances are fairly good that the pathogen you add will NOT hurt your tree, there is the chance that it will. trees always lived in nature and patogenes made them stronger ( the one that survived at least ) and a lot survived and made a strong breed As for compost, GOOD compost is self-sterilized. It gets HOT in a good, well-turned compost pile. Still, compost is pretty fine- grained soil and since it is the product of decay so by definition if it has decay bacteria included in it, your compost will only get finer as time goes on. That clogs up your soil. yes but generally it takes two years to make a good compost I use it after this time when I need repotting It is often forgotten, but roots need more than water and nutrients. They need air. Clogged soil interferes with the provision of air to the roots. yes of course but in real nature you have grit and soil and trees live in the one tehy are fitted to live in .. a seed in a wrong soil wither and die some prefer in calcar some acidic some live in clay or silica others in swamp of course we have , due to the reduced space of a pot to create the ideal place for roots to develope but if we only use non-soil and fertilizers we do a sort of syntetic environment similar to hydroculture but instead of water we use a moist solid medium the non -soil! it is not a normal environment , and beside that patogenes are carried by wind insects animal dejections and whatever unless you grow your bonsais under a glass bell cut form whatever contact with the external world but this is almost possible now or in labs, but not during the centuries before ,and Bonsai art survived patogenes and all different soils and mix Over time, the pine bark we use decomposes bit and actually becomes a kind of soil in our pot. About then, though, we repot. exactly and air does not circulate as well as in the beginning of repotting .. in this way we could grow bonsai in chopped glass grit and add macro and micro elements when needed but would it be to make Bonsai ? :-) a doctor told me lately we are not healty in the meaniong of viruses or desease -free we are filled up with viruses and microbs that cannot develope and kill us as we have immuno defenses but to have tehm we must be in contanct with viruses or micronbs to develope them MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : Just for today... don't worry .....be happy ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#37
25-11-2004, 08:13 AM
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Hi Alan
Alan Walker wrote: Theo: A big difference is that I don't care much if a tree in the forest dies of natural causes, but I care a whole lot if any of my bonsai die for any reason. I want much better survival rates than nature, so for me the nature comparison is moot. I'll continue to practice risk management for bonsai. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org the only problems I had were in the evry beginning when I treated bonsais like babies .. and with difficult species like Japanese holly or apples were kept inside home in winther and one serissa .. but the pentaphilla and deshojo palmatum I had and I was really frightened to care them as too important for a beginner survived during 25 years until today the only time I had a problem 4 and 2 years ago was because of a bad making of a pot in fact two pentaphilla pines went twice in there both developed roots decay.. the second has been saved .. and the pot discarded MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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#38
25-11-2004, 01:00 PM
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Theo
Excellent! You and I are on the same wavelength! I think SYENTHIC cultural practices in US is the result of too much hype created for the readymade (lazy-man's) products by the manufacturers and their agents probably with the motive of making profits. As the mother feed is the best for a baby, likewise mother earth (natural soil) is the best food source for a plant. Highly infected, infested and polluted soil will not support plant life. But where is the need to get such stuff then sterilize or autoclave it! I take good fertilesoil, dry it in the Sun and then sift it through a sieve that has 40 x 40 meshes per sq.inch, to remove the fine dust. Similarly we use well rotted leaf or dung compost after sifting it through 20 x 20 mesh. And adding coarse sharp sand or inert grit to it, the mixture becomes quite porous and easily last one year without clogging. In the next repotting, we recycle the old mixture by sifting it again (to remove the broken fine particles) and mixing it with the fresh mixture in 50-50ratio, adding some broad spectrum organic fertilizer. All plants grow very well in this medium. As for the micro-elements are concerned, these are sufficient in organic fertlisers and soil. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" Jim Lewis wrote: Oh, phoo! You've heard of "safe sex?" We're practicing "Safe Bonsai growing." danger and to know haw to play the right rules is a part of the game too safe .. is like eat syntehtic meat instead of a T bone steak IMHO ! When you add dirt you cannot avoid adding pathogens (unless, of course, you sterilize the dirt, and I know you don't) and, like casual sexual partners and STD, while chances are fairly good that the pathogen you add will NOT hurt your tree, there is the chance that it will. trees always lived in nature and patogenes made them stronger ( the one that survived at least ) and a lot survived and made a strong breed As for compost, GOOD compost is self-sterilized. It gets HOT in a good, well-turned compost pile. Still, compost is pretty fine- grained soil and since it is the product of decay so by definition if it has decay bacteria included in it, your compost will only get finer as time goes on. That clogs up your soil. yes but generally it takes two years to make a good compost I use it after this time when I need repotting It is often forgotten, but roots need more than water and nutrients. They need air. Clogged soil interferes with the provision of air to the roots. yes of course but in real nature you have grit and soil and trees live in the one tehy are fitted to live in .. a seed in a wrong soil wither and die some prefer in calcar some acidic some live in clay or silica others in swamp of course we have , due to the reduced space of a pot to create the ideal place for roots to develope but if we only use non-soil and fertilizers we do a sort of syntetic environment similar to hydroculture but instead of water we use a moist solid medium the non -soil! it is not a normal environment , and beside that patogenes are carried by wind insects animal dejections and whatever unless you grow your bonsais under a glass bell cut form whatever contact with the external world but this is almost possible now or in labs, but not during the centuries before ,and Bonsai art survived patogenes and all different soils and mix Over time, the pine bark we use decomposes bit and actually becomes a kind of soil in our pot. About then, though, we repot. exactly and air does not circulate as well as in the beginning of repotting .. in this way we could grow bonsai in chopped glass grit and add macro and micro elements when needed but would it be to make Bonsai ? :-) a doctor told me lately we are not healty in the meaniong of viruses or desease -free we are filled up with viruses and microbs that cannot develope and kill us as we have immuno defenses but to have tehm we must be in contanct with viruses or micronbs to develope them MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#39
25-11-2004, 02:47 PM
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Hello Anil Anil Kaushik wrote: Theo Excellent! You and I are on the same wavelength! ;-) I think SYENTHIC cultural practices in US is the result of too much hype created for the readymade (lazy-man's) products by the manufacturers and their agents probably with the motive of making profits. probably due to production and to avoid patopgenous that can destroy young breed I read of a Japanese master that when buys some plants in nurseries he knows that are hevily under chemicals to keep them fine so during one year he leaves the new bought plant grow and to get free fo chemical to rebuilt his own defenses I think he is right As the mother feed is the best for a baby, likewise mother earth (natural soil) is the best food source for a plant. Highly infected, infested and polluted soil will not support plant life. But where is the need to get such stuff then sterilize or autoclave it! I take good fertilesoil, dry it in the Sun and then sift it through a sieve that has 40 x 40 meshes per sq.inch, to remove the fine dust. Similarly we use well rotted leaf or dung compost after sifting it through 20 x 20 mesh. And adding coarse sharp sand or inert grit to it, the mixture becomes quite porous and easily last one year without clogging. In the next repotting, we recycle the old mixture by sifting it again (to remove the broken fine particles) and mixing it with the fresh mixture in 50-50ratio, adding some broad spectrum organic fertilizer. All plants grow very well in this medium. yeah I normally steam-sterilize the lava or gravel I use as it comes from soils and places I do not know so I wash and than put in a plastic bag with some water in microwave so I can recicle it over and over again and adding a little old soil plus new home made compost it helps to colonize with *home* bacteria Akadama is getting not only expensive but also degradates quite quickly so I use just a third with lava and the compost for needles I use less compost with maples 30% is ok my coarse lava or gravel is about 4-5 mm and porous so helps in air circulation aftere ripotting the old soil aka + gravel or lava + old compost is sifted the dust is thrown in nature or in my geraniums pots and the solid gravel is washed sterilized and stored for others plants whene needed in months to come As for the micro-elements are concerned, these are sufficient in organic fertlisers and soil. guess so , and anyway there are also in biogold fish emulsion and so on Regards MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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#40
25-11-2004, 02:47 PM
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Hello Anil Anil Kaushik wrote: Theo Excellent! You and I are on the same wavelength! ;-) I think SYENTHIC cultural practices in US is the result of too much hype created for the readymade (lazy-man's) products by the manufacturers and their agents probably with the motive of making profits. probably due to production and to avoid patopgenous that can destroy young breed I read of a Japanese master that when buys some plants in nurseries he knows that are hevily under chemicals to keep them fine so during one year he leaves the new bought plant grow and to get free fo chemical to rebuilt his own defenses I think he is right As the mother feed is the best for a baby, likewise mother earth (natural soil) is the best food source for a plant. Highly infected, infested and polluted soil will not support plant life. But where is the need to get such stuff then sterilize or autoclave it! I take good fertilesoil, dry it in the Sun and then sift it through a sieve that has 40 x 40 meshes per sq.inch, to remove the fine dust. Similarly we use well rotted leaf or dung compost after sifting it through 20 x 20 mesh. And adding coarse sharp sand or inert grit to it, the mixture becomes quite porous and easily last one year without clogging. In the next repotting, we recycle the old mixture by sifting it again (to remove the broken fine particles) and mixing it with the fresh mixture in 50-50ratio, adding some broad spectrum organic fertilizer. All plants grow very well in this medium. yeah I normally steam-sterilize the lava or gravel I use as it comes from soils and places I do not know so I wash and than put in a plastic bag with some water in microwave so I can recicle it over and over again and adding a little old soil plus new home made compost it helps to colonize with *home* bacteria Akadama is getting not only expensive but also degradates quite quickly so I use just a third with lava and the compost for needles I use less compost with maples 30% is ok my coarse lava or gravel is about 4-5 mm and porous so helps in air circulation aftere ripotting the old soil aka + gravel or lava + old compost is sifted the dust is thrown in nature or in my geraniums pots and the solid gravel is washed sterilized and stored for others plants whene needed in months to come As for the micro-elements are concerned, these are sufficient in organic fertlisers and soil. guess so , and anyway there are also in biogold fish emulsion and so on Regards MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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#41
27-11-2004, 05:29 PM
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Anil Kaushik wrote:
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Anil There have been good responses to your question, but I believe there was only one that was close to my feeling about why you are successful in your regime while we have chosen our soilless route: The answer, I believe is the difference in our climates. I am sure that it is as hard for you to imagine what conditions are like in a temperate climate as it is for me to comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will take a crack at it. The species which you grow and your climate means that there is activity of some sort year round, although I am sure there are periods of slower growth. In temperate climates there are long periods of almost no growth activity whatsoever. What this means is that your soil is in a constant state of wet/dry cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual. Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and soil collapse is not not much of a problem. But I do note that you repot every year or so. At that rate of repotting, particle degradation would not be a problem even for those of us in a temperate climate. Our repotting rates are usually two to three years, up to ten years or more for pines. This longer period argues for more stable constituents. Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling in winter is a factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a proper wet/dry cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend to stay WET for most of the winter, which can be as long as October through March. That is a very long period of inactivity for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a stable soilless mix insures that aeration is still present during this period, and soil composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil collapses much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at the end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably soil levels sinking in nursery containers. Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate zones to grow in a mix similiar to yours, as it is possible for you to grow in soilless mixes. I have never been dogmatic about soil mixes, that is why I try to point out the principles of soil theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each soil recipe is going to require it's own concomitant regime of watering and other environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that soilless mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it works, it works. I usually don't even question what a person uses for soil if their trees are healthy. However, when someone isn't satisfied with the growth they are getting, or have a declining tree, the first thing I do is examine the soil. Most times the soil is too heavy in organic and fine material, and so I will recommend a soilless mix. Followup has shown me that I am usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this is for our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem in an international forum, so the realization of such and an appropriate disclaimer are usually helpful. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#42
27-11-2004, 05:29 PM
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Anil Kaushik wrote:
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Anil There have been good responses to your question, but I believe there was only one that was close to my feeling about why you are successful in your regime while we have chosen our soilless route: The answer, I believe is the difference in our climates. I am sure that it is as hard for you to imagine what conditions are like in a temperate climate as it is for me to comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will take a crack at it. The species which you grow and your climate means that there is activity of some sort year round, although I am sure there are periods of slower growth. In temperate climates there are long periods of almost no growth activity whatsoever. What this means is that your soil is in a constant state of wet/dry cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual. Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and soil collapse is not not much of a problem. But I do note that you repot every year or so. At that rate of repotting, particle degradation would not be a problem even for those of us in a temperate climate. Our repotting rates are usually two to three years, up to ten years or more for pines. This longer period argues for more stable constituents. Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling in winter is a factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a proper wet/dry cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend to stay WET for most of the winter, which can be as long as October through March. That is a very long period of inactivity for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a stable soilless mix insures that aeration is still present during this period, and soil composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil collapses much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at the end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably soil levels sinking in nursery containers. Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate zones to grow in a mix similiar to yours, as it is possible for you to grow in soilless mixes. I have never been dogmatic about soil mixes, that is why I try to point out the principles of soil theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each soil recipe is going to require it's own concomitant regime of watering and other environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that soilless mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it works, it works. I usually don't even question what a person uses for soil if their trees are healthy. However, when someone isn't satisfied with the growth they are getting, or have a declining tree, the first thing I do is examine the soil. Most times the soil is too heavy in organic and fine material, and so I will recommend a soilless mix. Followup has shown me that I am usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this is for our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem in an international forum, so the realization of such and an appropriate disclaimer are usually helpful. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#43
27-11-2004, 07:39 PM
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Hi Brent
I rose the thread wondering of microelements were due to plants regularly around the year , I had a lot or reponses and Jim Lewis posted a link to your site about fertilization.. now I have the answer I was looking for .. of course as usual the thread shifted onto another direction soils and non soils even if the two are linked ( soil and microelements -fertilization yes you are right , as I say also whatever problem might rise I ask tehese questions 1) which kind of soil do you have ? 2) which climate do you live in ? 3) depends on which problem the persona has,.. we have a tendency to generalize that every body lives under ** our climates* Our climates are : I am in Switzerland others in Haway India Madagascar S. Francisco Tucson or Estonia ( most of you does not even know where it is :-D) & so on I was in Frisco 7 years ago and I calleld you by phome unfortunately I could not pass by your nursery and IS my still my great regret! best regards .. Brent Walston wrote: Anil Kaushik wrote: I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Anil There have been good responses to your question, but I believe there was only one that was close to my feeling about why you are successful in your regime while we have chosen our soilless route: The answer, I believe is the difference in our climates. I am sure that it is as hard for you to imagine what conditions are like in a temperate climate as it is for me to comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will take a crack at it. The species which you grow and your climate means that there is activity of some sort year round, although I am sure there are periods of slower growth. In temperate climates there are long periods of almost no growth activity whatsoever. What this means is that your soil is in a constant state of wet/dry cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual. Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and soil collapse is not not much of a problem. But I do note that you repot every year or so. At that rate of repotting, particle degradation would not be a problem even for those of us in a temperate climate. Our repotting rates are usually two to three years, up to ten years or more for pines. This longer period argues for more stable constituents. Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling in winter is a factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a proper wet/dry cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend to stay WET for most of the winter, which can be as long as October through March. That is a very long period of inactivity for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a stable soilless mix insures that aeration is still present during this period, and soil composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil collapses much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at the end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably soil levels sinking in nursery containers. Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate zones to grow in a mix similiar to yours, as it is possible for you to grow in soilless mixes. I have never been dogmatic about soil mixes, that is why I try to point out the principles of soil theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each soil recipe is going to require it's own concomitant regime of watering and other environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that soilless mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it works, it works. I usually don't even question what a person uses for soil if their trees are healthy. However, when someone isn't satisfied with the growth they are getting, or have a declining tree, the first thing I do is examine the soil. Most times the soil is too heavy in organic and fine material, and so I will recommend a soilless mix. Followup has shown me that I am usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this is for our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem in an international forum, so the realization of such and an appropriate disclaimer are usually helpful. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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#44
28-11-2004, 12:46 AM
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Brent
Thank you for the comprehensive reply. At last I got the right answer! (Theo also said so and I think he was absolutely correct) Also could you please tell if there are parameters regarding the porosity of Bonsai mixture? Has anybody conducted research or study on *porosity*. If you pour water over gravel, the water will drain out in seconds. And if you do the same on fine grit say with 1 to 2 mm sized particles, it will still drain out quickly. Likewise it will pass out quickly through fine sand (dust free) or may take a little longer. How porous the Bonsai potting mix should be for different climatic conditions? If you have some information please share. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" Anil Kaushik wrote: I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Anil There have been good responses to your question, but I believe there was only one that was close to my feeling about why you are successful in your regime while we have chosen our soilless route: The answer, I believe is the difference in our climates. I am sure that it is as hard for you to imagine what conditions are like in a temperate climate as it is for me to comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will take a crack at it. The species which you grow and your climate means that there is activity of some sort year round, although I am sure there are periods of slower growth. In temperate climates there are long periods of almost no growth activity whatsoever. What this means is that your soil is in a constant state of wet/dry cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual. Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and soil collapse is not not much of a problem. But I do note that you repot every year or so. At that rate of repotting, particle degradation would not be a problem even for those of us in a temperate climate. Our repotting rates are usually two to three years, up to ten years or more for pines. This longer period argues for more stable constituents. Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling in winter is a factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a proper wet/dry cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend to stay WET for most of the winter, which can be as long as October through March. That is a very long period of inactivity for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a stable soilless mix insures that aeration is still present during this period, and soil composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil collapses much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at the end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably soil levels sinking in nursery containers. Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate zones to grow in a mix similiar to yours, as it is possible for you to grow in soilless mixes. I have never been dogmatic about soil mixes, that is why I try to point out the principles of soil theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each soil recipe is going to require it's own concomitant regime of watering and other environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that soilless mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it works, it works. I usually don't even question what a person uses for soil if their trees are healthy. However, when someone isn't satisfied with the growth they are getting, or have a declining tree, the first thing I do is examine the soil. Most times the soil is too heavy in organic and fine material, and so I will recommend a soilless mix. Followup has shown me that I am usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this is for our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem in an international forum, so the realization of such and an appropriate disclaimer are usually helpful. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#45
28-11-2004, 01:27 AM
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Anil
Absolutely, it is well documented that good container mixes should have about 25% porosity (air space by volume). There are even simple tests you can conduct to measure it. I could post one if anyone is interested. The rate at which the water drains out is only an indication of aeration. The situation is this: Water will drain from a pot of soil until the lowest possible level of saturated soil is reached. No more water will drain out, EVER. The height of this column of saturated soil in the bottom of pot depends upon the nature of the soil, but mostly by the particle size. The finer the soil, the higher the column, and thus the greater the volume of saturated soil (and total volume of water) retained after drainage. Further removal of water is accomplished by transpiration of the plant (water is absorbed by the roots and transported to the leaves). It may not be obvious, but this is the greatest factor in removing water from the soil, evaporation is the secondary factor. You can do some simple experiments to test this. Saturate a common sponge with water and place it flat on your hand until it stops draining. Then tip it vertically, more water will drain. This is because you have increased the height of the saturated column. It will continue to drain until the column height is the same as the flat sponge. From this experiment you can see that the shape of the pot will also affect the amount of water retained. A tall pot will retain LESS water than a low flat pot of the same volume with the same soil. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com Anil Kaushik wrote: Brent Thank you for the comprehensive reply. At last I got the right answer! (Theo also said so and I think he was absolutely correct) Also could you please tell if there are parameters regarding the porosity of Bonsai mixture? Has anybody conducted research or study on *porosity*. If you pour water over gravel, the water will drain out in seconds. And if you do the same on fine grit say with 1 to 2 mm sized particles, it will still drain out quickly. Likewise it will pass out quickly through fine sand (dust free) or may take a little longer. How porous the Bonsai potting mix should be for different climatic conditions? If you have some information please share. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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