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Old 25-11-2004, 04:00 PM
Theo
 
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Hi Billy
Billy M. Rhodes wrote:


I think SYENTHIC cultural practices in US is the result of too much hype
created for the readymade (lazy-man's) products by the manufacturers and their
agents probably with the motive of making profits.



Please don't generalize about us.

someone taht has nurseries has expenses and loss and do not get
millionaire I gues.. so :-) do not get nervous

As the mother feed is the best for a baby, likewise mother earth (natural

soil) is the best food source for a plant. Highly infected, infested and
polluted soil will not support plant life.


If the mother is HIV Positive it is not good for the baby and there is
no way to clean it up.

we are going OT it is not a reasonable example ..
it is true that as seeds let by themselves only stronger ones will
survive and make strong plants and the othesr wilt and die
if you seed 1000 seeds to graft in future or cuttings you prefer
to take precautions to loose very little or none of tehm and this is
bad for the quality you'll will get especially with seedlings



But, as someone said, I am not willing to take the change with a plant
I paid good money for.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

maybe I misunderstood ,
what do you prefer a nice new strong well breed selected and more
expensive viable tree or a nice looking tree that is doped to look
healthy and die in few months later ?
quality will remain even if when you will have forgot the price you paid

for plants you'll see within months if they are fine with you .. and
if they die is your fault.. or maybe was the nursery's fault as the
plant was articially kept healthy... and is exausted as forced to look
fine?..
we could discuss endlessly
but quality has always a price !





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Old 26-11-2004, 02:42 AM
Iris Cohen
 
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If you carry this "natural" soil argument to its ultimate conclusion, we would
not grow bonsai at all. We would leave all the trees in the woods, live in
caves, and eat raw meat. If God didn't want us to develop technology, He would
not have given us a large brain and opposable thumbs. Even Betty the crow makes
tools. If you don't want to use modern methods which research has developed to
grow healthier trees, you don't have to. If your methods work for you, fine. I
will continue to use the methods that work for me, including soilless mixes,
weekly feeding with organic and inorganic fertilizers, and insecticides whan
necessary. And I will continue to keep myself & my plants indoors in the
winter.
By the way, the products we use in soilless potting media: crushed gravel,
bark, perlite, vermiculite, and charcoal, are just as natural as garden dirt,
only the charcoal and expanded clay have been heated.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra
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Old 26-11-2004, 04:37 AM
Theo
 
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HI Iris
Iris Cohen wrote:

If you carry this "natural" soil argument to its ultimate conclusion, we would
not grow bonsai at all. We would leave all the trees in the woods, live in
caves, and eat raw meat.

technology is one thing but we are going too far
in this way why not live into a bubble uniform like astronouts on
the moon to avoid contaminations ,breath sterilized air and eat
sysnthetic food to live healthier.....
in the 1940 1950 in switzerland ( a doctopr friend told me ) was the
craze of sterilizations of aptments from microbs
and they realized that people were getting sick easier and the *clean
apt* than in the normal ones...

my little geraniums and maples and pentaphilla and azaleas and roses
live in a spartan natural way..
of course I am changing the soil for a better accomodation to my and
their needs, as are grown in an already **artificial** environment to
stimulate better air curculation and roots development , but I use
natural materials
if we are too much byby sitting them like over cured kids will grow
spolied and get all pests and problems
I had plants for years in pots and never changed soil nor added
fertilizers beside of some cofféé waste and water for years a and
the plants were growing fine ..
Here in switzerland we have often the city decoration trees that are
in small pots to avoid wild parkings or as decoration and grow natural
bonsai and have no cure at all watering when is raining no fertilizer a
small pot no drainage no good soil and all pestas that pass by

sometimes I make picteures as they are very nice material for bonsais
and are often junipers or pines or maples...

If God didn't want us to develop technology, He would

Please .. let Him where he is .. we are already making enought harm
in the world in His name ..
not have given us a large brain and opposable thumbs. Even Betty the crow makes
tools.

it is coincidence next time others species will develope grips and
civilization . monkeys are very similar to us but nature did not make
a perfetc thumb yet with them we were the following experiment..
and was succesful ..so to say


unfortunately we use them to destroy our enviromnements and human
fellows..

If you don't want to use modern methods which research has developed to
grow healthier trees, you don't have to.


mine are healthy in their environment
just some aphids & sometimes of mildew if I water too late in the
evening in summer
If your methods work for you, fine. I
will continue to use the methods that work for me, including soilless mixes

sure it is your choice
,
weekly feeding with organic and inorganic fertilizers, and insecticides whan
necessary. And I will continue to keep myself & my plants indoors in the
winter.

it is a forum of discussion not a forum to enforce the know how for
bonsai to his members :-)
we are still in democracy
By the way, the products we use in soilless potting media: crushed gravel,
bark, perlite, vermiculite, and charcoal, are just as natural as garden dirt,
only the charcoal and expanded clay have been heated.

I prefer lava pumice or sand peat and granite and my home made oak
leaves compost
I have this materials available here as well as akadama but is too
expensive lately and the quality is getting poor

I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving day

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Old 26-11-2004, 04:37 AM
Theo
 
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HI Iris
Iris Cohen wrote:

If you carry this "natural" soil argument to its ultimate conclusion, we would
not grow bonsai at all. We would leave all the trees in the woods, live in
caves, and eat raw meat.

technology is one thing but we are going too far
in this way why not live into a bubble uniform like astronouts on
the moon to avoid contaminations ,breath sterilized air and eat
sysnthetic food to live healthier.....
in the 1940 1950 in switzerland ( a doctopr friend told me ) was the
craze of sterilizations of aptments from microbs
and they realized that people were getting sick easier and the *clean
apt* than in the normal ones...

my little geraniums and maples and pentaphilla and azaleas and roses
live in a spartan natural way..
of course I am changing the soil for a better accomodation to my and
their needs, as are grown in an already **artificial** environment to
stimulate better air curculation and roots development , but I use
natural materials
if we are too much byby sitting them like over cured kids will grow
spolied and get all pests and problems
I had plants for years in pots and never changed soil nor added
fertilizers beside of some cofféé waste and water for years a and
the plants were growing fine ..
Here in switzerland we have often the city decoration trees that are
in small pots to avoid wild parkings or as decoration and grow natural
bonsai and have no cure at all watering when is raining no fertilizer a
small pot no drainage no good soil and all pestas that pass by

sometimes I make picteures as they are very nice material for bonsais
and are often junipers or pines or maples...

If God didn't want us to develop technology, He would

Please .. let Him where he is .. we are already making enought harm
in the world in His name ..
not have given us a large brain and opposable thumbs. Even Betty the crow makes
tools.

it is coincidence next time others species will develope grips and
civilization . monkeys are very similar to us but nature did not make
a perfetc thumb yet with them we were the following experiment..
and was succesful ..so to say


unfortunately we use them to destroy our enviromnements and human
fellows..

If you don't want to use modern methods which research has developed to
grow healthier trees, you don't have to.


mine are healthy in their environment
just some aphids & sometimes of mildew if I water too late in the
evening in summer
If your methods work for you, fine. I
will continue to use the methods that work for me, including soilless mixes

sure it is your choice
,
weekly feeding with organic and inorganic fertilizers, and insecticides whan
necessary. And I will continue to keep myself & my plants indoors in the
winter.

it is a forum of discussion not a forum to enforce the know how for
bonsai to his members :-)
we are still in democracy
By the way, the products we use in soilless potting media: crushed gravel,
bark, perlite, vermiculite, and charcoal, are just as natural as garden dirt,
only the charcoal and expanded clay have been heated.

I prefer lava pumice or sand peat and granite and my home made oak
leaves compost
I have this materials available here as well as akadama but is too
expensive lately and the quality is getting poor

I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving day

MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :

«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»



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Old 26-11-2004, 05:49 AM
Anil Kaushik
 
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Iris

I think you need to go through the posts again.

If you carry this "natural" soil argument to its ultimate conclusion, we

would
not grow bonsai at all.


It is a healthy discussion and not an argument. Many Bonsaiest around the
world still grow that way.

We would leave all the trees in the woods, live in
caves, and eat raw meat.


That is an overstatement.


If God didn't want us to develop technology, He would
not have given us a large brain and opposable thumbs. Even Betty the crow

makes
tools. If you don't want to use modern methods which research has

developed to
grow healthier trees, you don't have to. If your methods work for you,

fine.

You are barking the wrong tree! It is because of the large brain and
opposite thumbs that we can make Bonsai or recreate *nature in miniature*.
In fact Bonsai is an amalgam of Art and Science, and roll of Science and
Technology is indispensable in Bonsai practice. One can not do without the
Bonsai tools or the knowledge of Science of plants, but Bonsai culture
varies from place to place and we should share our perceptions and
experiences.

I will continue to use the methods that work for me, including soilless

mixes,
weekly feeding with organic and inorganic fertilizers, and insecticides

whan
necessary. And I will continue to keep myself & my plants indoors in the
winter.


Why not, that is your PREROGATIVE.


By the way, the products we use in soilless potting media: crushed gravel,
bark, perlite, vermiculite, and charcoal, are just as natural as garden

dirt,

What is garden dirt I don't know, what I mentioned was good FERTILE SOIL
from the country side from which grow different crops.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"

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Old 26-11-2004, 08:25 AM
Theo
 
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Anil Kaushik wrote:

What is garden dirt I don't know, what I mentioned was good FERTILE SOIL
from the country side from which grow different crops.

yoi make me think when in ancient times crops were not pushed to grow as
we do today with chemicals
and they used to rotate crops as each plant give and take from soils
different elements
and after a period of cultivation the last was seedled with
**medical herb* that was useless for us , excellent to feed animals and
had the gift to regenerate the soil with a lot of micronutrients ..
some other times the soil was worked when these herbs were tender and
their decompostion was excellent for soil fournishing a lot of Azote
(N) or burned when dry and their ashes gave P an K
mature horse & cow manure were used as fertilizers months before
seedlings to let the elemnts reach deep into soil and noz build up salts
Plants were mixed so some plants were curing others,
tomatoes impeach aphids, garlich plants avoid peach peach tree
deseases , aand so on

and this has been so for 40 thousand years

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Old 28-11-2004, 05:50 AM
Alan Walker
 
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There has been much research and commentary on porosity
of soil. It is a given that with the very coarse soil mixes
recommended for bonsai, that they will require more frequent
watering. How much will still depend on your current climatic
conditions. On a hot, cloudless, windy day with low humidity you
will have to water more often than on a cool, rainy day.

That is why we advise people not to water on a schedule,
because conditions vary, even in a single location. As the
steward of your bonsai, you will be responsible for making the
determination of how often is enough and how much is too much or
too little. Your bonsai will let you know if you are right. ;-)

A coarse, porous mix will help minimize the risk of root
rot. I believe it is much easier to mess up with overwatering
than with underwatering though either can be devastating.
Overwatering is much more common. If your soil mix is draining
quickly, then you'll be safer with more frequent watering or even
monsoon rains.

The soil mechanics which Brent describes below is an
interesting experiment to perform for yourself. You should try
it! I attended a workshop a couple of weeks ago by Chuck Ware of
Jade Gardens. http://www.wimberley-tx.com/~bonsaijg/ Chuck did a
demonstration of these very principles using five different
containers of various shapes. It was eye opening to discover that
each container held the same volume of soil. Yet, more
interesting, was to see that the water perched at about the same
level in each pot, just as Brent explains below. So, the cascade
container did hold the least amount of moisture, and the broad,
low container held the most water.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org
__________________________________________________ ________
Anil
Absolutely, it is well documented that good container
mixes should have about 25% porosity (air space by volume). There
are even simple tests you can conduct to measure it. I could post
one if anyone is interested.

The rate at which the water drains out is only an
indication of aeration. The situation is this: Water will drain
from a pot of soil until the lowest possible level of saturated
soil is reached. No more water will drain out, EVER. The height
of this column of saturated soil in the bottom of pot depends
upon the nature of the soil, but mostly by the particle size. The
finer the soil, the higher the column, and thus the greater the
volume of saturated soil (and total volume of water) retained
after drainage.

Further removal of water is accomplished by transpiration
of the plant (water is absorbed by the roots and transported to
the leaves). It may not be obvious, but this is the greatest
factor in removing water from the soil, evaporation is the
secondary factor.

You can do some simple experiments to test this. Saturate
a common sponge with water and place it flat on your hand until
it stops draining. Then tip it vertically, more water will drain.
This is because you have increased the height of the saturated
column. It will continue to drain until the column height is the
same as the flat sponge. From this experiment you can see that
the shape of the pot will also affect the amount of water
retained. A tall pot will retain LESS water than a low flat pot
of the same volume with the same soil.

Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Anil Kaushik

Brent
Thank you for the comprehensive reply. At last I got the right
answer!
(Theo also said so and I think he was absolutely correct)
Also could you please tell if there are parameters regarding the
porosity of Bonsai mixture? Has anybody conducted research or
study on *porosity*. If you pour water over gravel, the water
will drain out in seconds. And if you do the same on fine grit
say with 1 to 2 mm sized particles, it will still drain out
quickly. Likewise it will pass out quickly through fine sand
(dust free) or may take a little longer. How porous the Bonsai
potting mix should be for different climatic conditions? If you
have some information please share.
Regards
Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City
Beautiful"
__________________________________________________ _______
Anil
There have been good responses to your question, but I
believe there was only one that was close to my feeling about why
you are successful in your regime while we have chosen our
soilless route: The answer, I believe is the difference in our
climates. I am sure that it is as hard for you to imagine what
conditions are like in a temperate climate as it is for me to
comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will take a
crack at it.

The species which you grow and your climate means that
there is activity of some sort year round, although I am sure
there are periods of slower growth. In temperate climates there
are long periods of almost no growth activity whatsoever. What
this means is that your soil is in a constant state of wet/dry
cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual.
Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and
soil collapse is not much of a problem. But I do note that you
repot every year or so. At that rate of repotting, particle
degradation would not be a problem even for those of us in a
temperate climate. Our repotting rates are usually two to three
years, up to ten years or more for pines. This longer period
argues for more stable constituents.

Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling
in winter is a factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a
proper wet/dry cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend
to stay WET for most of the winter, which can be as long as
October through March. That is a very long period of inactivity
for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a stable soilless mix insures
that aeration is still present during this period, and soil
composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil collapses
much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at the
end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four
months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably
soil levels sinking in nursery containers.

Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate
zones to grow in a mix similar to yours, as it is possible for
you to grow in soilless mixes. I have never been dogmatic about
soil mixes, that is why I try to point out the principles of soil
theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each soil recipe is going to
require it's own concomitant regime of watering and other
environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your
cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that
soilless mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it
works, it works. I usually don't even question what a person uses
for soil if their trees are healthy. However, when someone isn't
satisfied with the growth they are getting, or have a declining
tree, the first thing I do is examine the soil. Most times the
soil is too heavy in organic and fine material, and so I will
recommend a soilless mix. Follow-up has shown me that I am
usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this
is for our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem
in an international forum, so the realization of such and an
appropriate disclaimer are usually helpful.
Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com

__________________________________________________ ________
Anil Kaushik wrote:
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add
natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really
create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and
bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to
the plants and, in fact, all flora grow in soil. Or is there some
other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use
coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts
and all the plants grow well.

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Old 29-11-2004, 02:20 AM
Brent Walston
 
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Mark Hill wrote:

Brent;

It appears from your drainage logic that my cascade pots should contain soil
that is more able to retain water at higher elevations.
This logic also suggests that I shouldn't water my cascades as often, and
that dryness tests should be performed lower into the soil.
Hmmmmmm ..... now you've got me thinking .... maybe I should consider
changing the soil in my cascades this spring.


Mark

I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is doing
just fine with your current system, then don't fix something that isn't
broke. Just keep it in mind for the future. You can increase the water
holding capacity by changing the soil slightly or using a slightly
larger pot. Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat
pots. So, take all these factors into consideration. Also consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the dry
side anyhow.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com


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Old 29-11-2004, 05:33 AM
Mark Hill
 
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Thanks again Brent.
Just so happens that most of my cascades are Junipers, and they seem to be
doing fine.
But .... You did start me thinking about pot size and drainage
characteristics.
Something I will consider on future cascades.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Brent Walston
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:21 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Microelemnts


I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is doing
just fine with your current system, then don't fix something that isn't
broke. Just keep it in mind for the future. You can increase the water
holding capacity by changing the soil slightly or using a slightly
larger pot. Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat
pots. So, take all these factors into consideration. Also consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the dry
side anyhow.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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  #11   Report Post  
Old 29-11-2004, 05:33 AM
Mark Hill
 
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Thanks again Brent.
Just so happens that most of my cascades are Junipers, and they seem to be
doing fine.
But .... You did start me thinking about pot size and drainage
characteristics.
Something I will consider on future cascades.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Brent Walston
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:21 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Microelemnts


I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is doing
just fine with your current system, then don't fix something that isn't
broke. Just keep it in mind for the future. You can increase the water
holding capacity by changing the soil slightly or using a slightly
larger pot. Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat
pots. So, take all these factors into consideration. Also consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the dry
side anyhow.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #12   Report Post  
Old 29-11-2004, 06:13 AM
Alan Walker
 
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Brent: You'll be surprised to find that the difference in soil
volume between low, flat containers and cascade pots is often
pretty negligible. It's an optical illusion which makes us think
that. Check it out sometime.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


Mark Hill wrote:
Brent;
It appears from your drainage logic that my cascade pots should
contain soil that is more able to retain water at higher
elevations. This logic also suggests that I shouldn't water my
cascades as often, and that dryness tests should be performed
lower into the soil. Hmmmmmm..... now you've got me thinking....
maybe I should consider changing the soil in my cascades this
spring.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Walston

Mark
I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is
doing
just fine with your current system, then don't fix something that
isn't
broke. Just keep it in mind for the future. You can increase the
water
holding capacity by changing the soil slightly or using a
slightly
larger pot.

Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat
pots. So, take all these factors into consideration. Also
consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the
dry
side anyhow.
Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #13   Report Post  
Old 29-11-2004, 09:38 AM
Theo
 
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Alan Walker wrote:

Brent: You'll be surprised to find that the difference in soil
volume between low, flat containers and cascade pots is often
pretty negligible. It's an optical illusion which makes us think
that. Check it out sometime.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


it is a law of physic
a flat container retains moist as the container has a flat wide
bottom and some holes so the water adhere on a large surface and
sticks to grains that touch it ,if you put the same quantity soil in a
cylinder and pour onto the same quantity of water with the same surface
of holes ( proportionally) the water by the gravity will have a tendency
to go down and down until the bottom
so the surface that will retain maximum of moist is the flat zone
around the drainage hole and the grains adhering to it

a easy experience
is to water a rectangular pot
and wait for the water flow out , when it ends take theh pot and
lift one side at 45° for few seconds and you'll see how much water will
come out again
this is why is adviced to put pots inclined when you have heavy
water falls to let the water fall out of drain holes by gravity



Mark Hill wrote:
Brent;
It appears from your drainage logic that my cascade pots should
contain soil that is more able to retain water at higher
elevations. This logic also suggests that I shouldn't water my
cascades as often, and that dryness tests should be performed
lower into the soil. Hmmmmmm..... now you've got me thinking....
maybe I should consider changing the soil in my cascades this
spring.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Walston

Mark
I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is
doing
just fine with your current system, then don't fix something that
isn't
broke. Just keep it in mind for the future. You can increase the
water
holding capacity by changing the soil slightly or using a
slightly
larger pot.

Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat
pots. So, take all these factors into consideration. Also
consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the
dry
side anyhow.
Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com


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  #14   Report Post  
Old 29-11-2004, 09:38 AM
Theo
 
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Default



Alan Walker wrote:

Brent: You'll be surprised to find that the difference in soil
volume between low, flat containers and cascade pots is often
pretty negligible. It's an optical illusion which makes us think
that. Check it out sometime.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


it is a law of physic
a flat container retains moist as the container has a flat wide
bottom and some holes so the water adhere on a large surface and
sticks to grains that touch it ,if you put the same quantity soil in a
cylinder and pour onto the same quantity of water with the same surface
of holes ( proportionally) the water by the gravity will have a tendency
to go down and down until the bottom
so the surface that will retain maximum of moist is the flat zone
around the drainage hole and the grains adhering to it

a easy experience
is to water a rectangular pot
and wait for the water flow out , when it ends take theh pot and
lift one side at 45° for few seconds and you'll see how much water will
come out again
this is why is adviced to put pots inclined when you have heavy
water falls to let the water fall out of drain holes by gravity



Mark Hill wrote:
Brent;
It appears from your drainage logic that my cascade pots should
contain soil that is more able to retain water at higher
elevations. This logic also suggests that I shouldn't water my
cascades as often, and that dryness tests should be performed
lower into the soil. Hmmmmmm..... now you've got me thinking....
maybe I should consider changing the soil in my cascades this
spring.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Walston

Mark
I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is
doing
just fine with your current system, then don't fix something that
isn't
broke. Just keep it in mind for the future. You can increase the
water
holding capacity by changing the soil slightly or using a
slightly
larger pot.

Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat
pots. So, take all these factors into consideration. Also
consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the
dry
side anyhow.
Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com


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************************************************** ******************************

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  #15   Report Post  
Old 29-11-2004, 03:28 PM
Alan Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Theo: You missed the point. I was talking about soil volume.
Brent had already pointed out the water perching level
phenomenon.

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
Alan Walker wrote:

Brent: You'll be surprised to find that the difference in soil
volume between low, flat containers and cascade pots is often
pretty negligible. It's an optical illusion which makes us think
that. Check it out sometime.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

From: Theo
It is a law of physic. A flat container retains moist as the
container has a flat wide bottom and some holes so the water
adhere on a large surface and sticks to grains that touch it, if
you put the same quantity soil in a cylinder and pour onto the
same quantity of water with the same surface of holes (
proportionally) the water by the gravity will have a tendency to
go down and down until the bottom so the surface that will
retain maximum of moist is the flat zone around the drainage
hole and the grains adhering to it.

a easy experience is to water a rectangular pot and wait for
the water flow out, when it ends take the pot and lift one side
at 45° for few seconds and you'll see how much water will come
out again. This is why is adviced to put pots inclined when you
have heavy water falls to let the water fall out of drain holes
by gravity

Mark Hill wrote:
Brent;
It appears from your drainage logic that my cascade pots should
contain soil that is more able to retain water at higher
elevations. This logic also suggests that I shouldn't water my
cascades as often, and that dryness tests should be performed
lower into the soil. Hmmmmmm..... now you've got me thinking....
maybe I should consider changing the soil in my cascades this
spring.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Walston

Mark
I wouldn't go overboard with this phenomenon. If your cascade is
doing just fine with your current system, then don't fix
something that isn't broke. Just keep it in mind for the future.
You can increase the water holding capacity by changing the soil
slightly or using a slightly larger pot.

Cascade pots typically hold more soil anyhow than low flat pots.
So, take all these factors into consideration. Also consider the
species. If you have a cascade juniper, they prefer to be on the
dry side anyhow.

Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

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