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Old 05-01-2005, 11:29 AM
Henrik Gistvall
 
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Default [IBC] Off topics

I´m getting really tired of all these off topics posted on this list.
BUT EVEN MORE SO ALL THOSE PEOPLE RESPONDING TO OFF TOPIC SUBJECTS! (Yes
I´m screaming at you!).

This is an american list so we all just have to accept Seasonsgreetings,
4th of july greetings and thanksgivings greetings. Sometimes other off
topics comes upp as well as the one with american soldiers, OK so what,
it is an american list. But please, please respond in private to off
topic subject, whether you think its good or not. Jim used to keep this
list in a thight leash, but I think it´s slacking. This fall there has
been more and more off topic discussions. If this dosen´t stop this will
be my last post to this list (if anyone cares ;-)). And please respond
to me off list If you have a problem with it, OK!

(Yeah, yeah I know I´m no better posting this message so you don´t have
to write and tell me)

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden

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Old 05-01-2005, 01:17 PM
Richard Patefield
 
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Henrik Gistvall wrote:

This is an american list...


No it isn't. This is the kind of ignorance that leads to these messages
being posted in the first place.

If you want less spam, don't post any.

Richard


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Old 05-01-2005, 03:15 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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On 5 Jan 2005 at 12:14, Richard Patefield wrote:

Henrik Gistvall wrote:


This is an american list...


Richard interjected:


No it isn't.


I assert:

Well, if you snipped apart all of the membership addresses, and
put them into a balance -- USAians in one side and everyone else
in the other -- I'm afraid that the balance _would_ tilt to the
USAian side.

It certainly would tilt to the side of members for whom English
is the primary language.

That said, it is the only mailing list/newsgroup (organization)
with a truly international membership. (I know of Italian-,
Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking bonsai lists, and there
probably are others. But they're quite a bit smaller than the
IBC.)

And, since it is directly connected to a USENET news group, we
on the mailing list just have to put up with the occasional
"troll" (troublemaker) who drifts by with the sole purpose of
causing trouble by crossposting to as many newsgroups as
possible.

You usually can spot these by the subject line and if you only
want to talk bonsai you can delete those which are not on that
subject without opening them. And Henrik, you CERTAINLY do not
have to look at any web page they point you at. (That could be
a dangerous move, anyway, since that page could be filled with
all kinds of viruses and other nasties.)

But, as Henrik says, you certainly should NOT respond on the
list because those people will only laugh. They check in to the
news group occasionally to laugh at the trouble they cause (and
if they were very successful, that encourages them to post
AGAIN). Respond to them directly if you MUST, but that also
only encourages them -- assuming they use a real address.

The best bet: IGNORE them. Hit DELETE and go on with your life.

The list managers sometimes warn you not to respond, but that
just clutters things up too and is the same thing as responding.
So usually, you never heard from me, as you don't hear from
Shelly now. We just hope(ed) that common sense would prevail.

If they (the trolls) keep on trying, the list manager can keep
those messages from reaching the list -- unless someone from the
newsgroup responds.

If we behave, however, they'll learn that we're too smart for
them and won't bother. (hint)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - List
Manager emeritus

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Old 05-01-2005, 04:07 PM
Wendy Fissel
 
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Hello all!

While it is not an "American" list, Henrik has a genuine point. Even
lurkers like myself have considered unsubscribing from the list at times due
to the "relative" proliferation of off-topic religious/cultural/political
discussions. These appear to be propagated by seemingly just a few members,
not just trolls as Jim describes. Richard is right, rec.arts.bonsai
contributes largely to this and dumping it might be an option, but this is
just a part.

This has been a fabulous forum for bonsai information. Having a multitude of
professional and/or experienced opinions is critical to learning about
bonsai, but some posters might choose better self-restraint. Anytime
politics or religion of any type are mixed in a public forum, opinions will
be voiced.

I hope Henrik's message helps everyone to evaluate their own posting
protocol and sensitivities.

Best wishes,

-Wendy

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:06 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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On 5 Jan 2005 at 14:41, Richard Patefield wrote:

Hello Jim and others,
Get rid of the link to usenet and you can get rid of spam and trolls.
Keep it and you are forever stuck with them on the list..

All my inbox spam comes from posting to the bonsai list. We post to the
list, our email addresses go into usenet, they are harvested and we get
the Cheap Rolex, Viagra, Enhancement, 419 Fraud etc emails.

The link should be broken. As far as I can recall we only keep it
because some users don't like a high volume list.


There are 500 members of the list. I've estimatred over the
years that the newsgroup adds almost that much -- as well as
almost ALL of the newcomers to the art that we're trying to help
-- and attract.

So I've never considered that a real option. If you have good
spam filters, a good ISP (NOT AOL, MSN etc.), and spyware/virus
protection all the newsgroup adds is a little aggravation on
fairly rare occasions.




There may be some liability incurred by the IBC by the act of forwarding
mails to usenet. The list is giving the spambots the users' addresses
and exposing all of us to the risks so often pointed out in these
conversations.

Phoo! Who's liable? And for- what? We don't exist as a formal
group. And people use the I'net purely at their own risk and
have back as far as I've been involved and that's a LONG time.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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Old 05-01-2005, 06:38 PM
Marty Haber
 
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Hey, Wendy! I hope you continue to lurk. You can tell that it's winter
time.
The bonsai are in the ground or in cold frames, so some of our
correspondents grab us to harp on their favorite isms. My favorite is
Humanism, but I won't get started on that thread here.
Anyway, I've got work to do. Its time to work on my February newsletter.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy Fissel"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:56 AM
Subject: [IBC] Off topics (longish)


Hello all!

While it is not an "American" list, Henrik has a genuine point. Even
lurkers like myself have considered unsubscribing from the list at times
due
to the "relative" proliferation of off-topic religious/cultural/political
discussions. These appear to be propagated by seemingly just a few
members,
not just trolls as Jim describes. Richard is right, rec.arts.bonsai
contributes largely to this and dumping it might be an option, but this is
just a part.

This has been a fabulous forum for bonsai information. Having a multitude
of
professional and/or experienced opinions is critical to learning about
bonsai, but some posters might choose better self-restraint. Anytime
politics or religion of any type are mixed in a public forum, opinions
will
be voiced.

I hope Henrik's message helps everyone to evaluate their own posting
protocol and sensitivities.

Best wishes,

-Wendy

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:26 AM
Richard Patefield
 
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What evidence is there that the link between the IBC email list and
rec.arts.bonsai does any good for the list, the IBC, bonsai in general
or anything touching on our subject?

respectfully,
Richard


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************************************************** ******************************
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:26 AM
Richard Patefield
 
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What evidence is there that the link between the IBC email list and
rec.arts.bonsai does any good for the list, the IBC, bonsai in general
or anything touching on our subject?

respectfully,
Richard


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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 1/3/2005

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


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Old 06-01-2005, 03:40 AM
Iris Cohen
 
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The bonsai are in the ground or in cold frames, so some of our
correspondents grab us to harp on their favorite isms.

And my favorite ism here is grow-bonsai-all-year-long ism. Nowadays, no matter
how traditional you are, you can grow real bonsai indoors in the winter, just
not traditional Japanese species (except Serissa).
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen
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Old 06-01-2005, 03:40 AM
Iris Cohen
 
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The bonsai are in the ground or in cold frames, so some of our
correspondents grab us to harp on their favorite isms.

And my favorite ism here is grow-bonsai-all-year-long ism. Nowadays, no matter
how traditional you are, you can grow real bonsai indoors in the winter, just
not traditional Japanese species (except Serissa).
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen
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Old 06-01-2005, 04:05 AM
Anita Hawkins
 
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Richard Patefield wrote:
What evidence is there that the link between the IBC email list and
rec.arts.bonsai does any good for the list, the IBC, bonsai in general
or anything touching on our subject?

respectfully,
Richard


Hi Richard,
The rec.arts group is searchable back at least a number of years thru
any Web search engine, and that's an advantage to the hobby. And, as
Jim L. pointed out, many newbies who have no reason to suspect the
mailing list exists (and no reason to want 20-50 emails a day!) first
ask questions thru the easily-discoverable newsgroup. Encouraging
newbies benefits the hobby 'cause we were all new once!

Anita
---
Northern Harford County, Maryland, USDA zone 6
"I am not bound for any public place, but for ground of my own where I
have planted vines and orchard trees, and in the heat of the day
climbed up into the healing shadow of the woods. Better than any
argument is to rise at dawn and pick dew-wet red berries in a cup."
~Wendell Berry

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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Old 06-01-2005, 04:05 AM
Anita Hawkins
 
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Richard Patefield wrote:
What evidence is there that the link between the IBC email list and
rec.arts.bonsai does any good for the list, the IBC, bonsai in general
or anything touching on our subject?

respectfully,
Richard


Hi Richard,
The rec.arts group is searchable back at least a number of years thru
any Web search engine, and that's an advantage to the hobby. And, as
Jim L. pointed out, many newbies who have no reason to suspect the
mailing list exists (and no reason to want 20-50 emails a day!) first
ask questions thru the easily-discoverable newsgroup. Encouraging
newbies benefits the hobby 'cause we were all new once!

Anita
---
Northern Harford County, Maryland, USDA zone 6
"I am not bound for any public place, but for ground of my own where I
have planted vines and orchard trees, and in the heat of the day
climbed up into the healing shadow of the woods. Better than any
argument is to rise at dawn and pick dew-wet red berries in a cup."
~Wendell Berry

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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Old 06-01-2005, 03:56 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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On 5 Jan 2005 at 23:24, Richard Patefield wrote:

What evidence is there that the link between the IBC email list and
rec.arts.bonsai does any good for the list, the IBC, bonsai in general
or anything touching on our subject?

respectfully,
Richard



It depends on what you want for the list. If you want an
elitist group, where experienced bonsiests talk only with
experienced bonsaiests you would drop RAB. (Or you would hang
out exclusively on the "Main Gallery" on our IBC gallery an
pound each other on the back for all their "great" trees.)

If you want to help newcomers, puzzled neophytes whose Serissa
just dropped all its leaves, and encourage these folks to join
the sport of bonsai you would enjoy it. Depends on how selfish
you are, I guess.

But since dropping the news group isn't an issue I don't know
why we're discussing this.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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