OK, as someone already said, the second tree is probably dead also. Junipers
will remain green for months after the roots are dead.

BUT

Take the tree from the pot and check the roots. If the roots are reddish and
strong the tree might be OK.

If the roots are black and mushy they are rotten and the tree is probably
dead.

Your can try repotting in a well draining soil and being more careful with
water. Junipers don't like to be over watered.

If you do repot, wash the roots clean with fresh water and then rinse with a
solution of one tablespoon of household bleach to a gallon of water. Also
rinse the pot with the same solution and remove all the old soil.

Root rot is caused by a bacteria and you must kill it to have any hope of the
tree living. Also since one tree died you would rinse the used pots in the
bleach solution before you reuse them.

Junipers are outdoor plants and not as easy a Bonsai subject as the trees
sold in malls or discount store would have you believe.

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Billy M. Rhodes wrote:
Root rot is caused by a bacteria .

I'm sure people on this list know how to ignor off-topic posts and how
to delete spam, and I'm sure you know, if you see a post by me, that
you can safely ignor it if you don't want to hear the ravings of a
plant pathologist.

Almost no root rots are caused by bacteria. After root rot has set in,
bacteria will follow, but they're almost never the causal agent. The
causal agent is usually a fungus or a water mold. Even these may be
coming in after wounding of the roots caused by insects or nematodes
(or pruning). Often we refer to "root rot syndromes" to indicate that
the etiology is complicated.

Often in plant pathology we refer to the "Disease Triangle" whose sides
are "pathogen", "susceptible plant" and "disease-conducive
environment". Obviously, you can have a plant but no disease if the
pathogen is absent. However, you can have the pathogen present but no
disease if the environment is nonconducive. You can have the pathogen
and a conducive environment, but no disease if the cultivar is
resistant. All three sides of the triangle must be present.

Sides of the triangle:
The pathogen: The problem with root rot is that the organisms are
almost always nearby, if not actually present. Bonsai growers use
nonsoil mixes rather than soil to reduce the possibility that root rot
organisms will be present, but if a potting mix is stored on the
ground, organisms can invade. Commercial peat can contain water molds
(I've isolated pythium from new bags of peat).

Conducive environment: Another problem is that some root rot organisms
are encouraged by warm weather (Fusarium, Phytophthora) and others by
cool weather (Pythium). In bonsai, the most common cause of root rot
is overwatering. The organism is almost invariably already in the soil
of a bonsai kept outdoors or which has spent some time in a greenhouse
(a colleague who is a world authority on Phytophthora in nursery
environments says you can isolate Phytophthora from the pots of 20-30 %
of symptomless plants in a nursery. My work with Pythium in
greenhouses has shown similar results). So when the environment
becomes conducive (soggy), the stage is set for disease. Well-draining
soil and the "chopstick" technique of watering are the best defenses.

Susceptible host: Most species used in bonsai are susceptible to root
rot. However, we can make a few generalizations. Mature plants are
less susceptible than seedlings. Overfertilized plants are more
susceptible than normally-fertilized plants. Plants that have been
recently pruned or repotted are more susceptible than ones that
haven't.

This spring when you repot, make sure to look for signs of root rot: a
foul smell, slimy, soft discolored roots. Remove all such roots.
Repot in well-draining mix and keep the plant free from all stresses.
A healthy plant is a resistant plant.

Nina.

"Billy M. Rhodes" wrote:

snip

Junipers are outdoor plants and not as easy a Bonsai subject as the trees
sold in malls or discount store would have you believe.

It probably depends on your climate. In the Northeast they're very easy as long as
you keep them outdoors.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Nina yours are posts I seldom delete unless a triangle
of time and circumstances prohibit reading. Rave on oh
priestess of pathology.

Kits
--- Nina wrote:

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:
Root rot is caused by a bacteria .

I'm sure people on this list know how to ignor
off-topic posts and how
to delete spam, and I'm sure you know, if you see a
post by me, that
you can safely ignor it if you don't want to hear
the ravings of a
plant pathologist.

Almost no root rots are caused by bacteria. After
root rot has set in,
bacteria will follow, but they're almost never the
causal agent. The
causal agent is usually a fungus or a water mold.
Even these may be
coming in after wounding of the roots caused by
insects or nematodes
(or pruning). Often we refer to "root rot
syndromes" to indicate that
the etiology is complicated.

Often in plant pathology we refer to the "Disease
Triangle" whose sides
are "pathogen", "susceptible plant" and
"disease-conducive
environment". Obviously, you can have a plant but
no disease if the
pathogen is absent. However, you can have the
pathogen present but no
disease if the environment is nonconducive. You can
have the pathogen
and a conducive environment, but no disease if the
cultivar is
resistant. All three sides of the triangle must be
present.

Sides of the triangle:
The pathogen: The problem with root rot is that the
organisms are
almost always nearby, if not actually present.
Bonsai growers use
nonsoil mixes rather than soil to reduce the
possibility that root rot
organisms will be present, but if a potting mix is
stored on the
ground, organisms can invade. Commercial peat can
contain water molds
(I've isolated pythium from new bags of peat).

Conducive environment: Another problem is that some
root rot organisms
are encouraged by warm weather (Fusarium,
Phytophthora) and others by
cool weather (Pythium). In bonsai, the most common
cause of root rot
is overwatering. The organism is almost invariably
already in the soil
of a bonsai kept outdoors or which has spent some
time in a greenhouse
(a colleague who is a world authority on
Phytophthora in nursery
environments says you can isolate Phytophthora from
the pots of 20-30 %
of symptomless plants in a nursery. My work with
Pythium in
greenhouses has shown similar results). So when the
environment
becomes conducive (soggy), the stage is set for
disease. Well-draining
soil and the "chopstick" technique of watering are
the best defenses.

Susceptible host: Most species used in bonsai are
susceptible to root
rot. However, we can make a few generalizations.
Mature plants are
less susceptible than seedlings. Overfertilized
plants are more
susceptible than normally-fertilized plants. Plants
that have been
recently pruned or repotted are more susceptible
than ones that
haven't.

This spring when you repot, make sure to look for
signs of root rot: a
foul smell, slimy, soft discolored roots. Remove
all such roots.
Repot in well-draining mix and keep the plant free
from all stresses.
A healthy plant is a resistant plant.

Nina.


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Manakitivipart++++

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=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

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You're so kind.

I should have realized that "Chopstick technique" was not very clear.
When I answer "Bonsai Doctor" posts, I have a sentence I always add:
"Don't water on a set schedule; water when the potting mix an inch down
is barely moist". That's the basic message, whether you use the
"Persiano pick" method of pushing a rod of wood into the soil to see if
it is moist when you withdraw it, or whether you use the Sandy
"knuckles" Vrooman method of sticking a finger in.

Admittedly, I do neither. I have too many plants. But I know my soil
mix and I know my plants, so it's only the newcomers I have to pay
close attention to. I pay attention to the soil moisture, to the leaf
turgor, and I LEARN WHAT HEALTHY ROOTS LOOK LIKE. I can't stress this
enough to beginners. If my brand new plant has tan highly-branching
roots, then I know, 6 months down the line when the roots are black and
sparse, that I have a problem. Azaleas have dark densely matted fine
roots. Junipers have flexible brown roots with tan tips.
Chamaecyparis roots have a green inner bark that is hard to see; if you
don't know that, you might think the root is dead. And so on.

Nina. Someone gave me a lucky bamboo for christmas. Let's see how
lucky it really is.

You're so kind.

I should have realized that "Chopstick technique" was not very clear.
When I answer "Bonsai Doctor" posts, I have a sentence I always add:
"Don't water on a set schedule; water when the potting mix an inch down
is barely moist". That's the basic message, whether you use the
"Persiano pick" method of pushing a rod of wood into the soil to see if
it is moist when you withdraw it, or whether you use the Sandy
"knuckles" Vrooman method of sticking a finger in.

Admittedly, I do neither. I have too many plants. But I know my soil
mix and I know my plants, so it's only the newcomers I have to pay
close attention to. I pay attention to the soil moisture, to the leaf
turgor, and I LEARN WHAT HEALTHY ROOTS LOOK LIKE. I can't stress this
enough to beginners. If my brand new plant has tan highly-branching
roots, then I know, 6 months down the line when the roots are black and
sparse, that I have a problem. Azaleas have dark densely matted fine
roots. Junipers have flexible brown roots with tan tips.
Chamaecyparis roots have a green inner bark that is hard to see; if you
don't know that, you might think the root is dead. And so on.

Nina. Someone gave me a lucky bamboo for christmas. Let's see how
lucky it really is.

--- Nina wrote:

You're so kind.

I should have realized that "Chopstick technique"
was not very clear.
When I answer "Bonsai Doctor" posts, I have a
sentence I always add:
"Don't water on a set schedule; water when the
potting mix an inch down
is barely moist". That's the basic message, whether
you use the
"Persiano pick" method of pushing a rod of wood into
the soil to see if
it is moist when you withdraw it, or whether you use
the Sandy
"knuckles" Vrooman method of sticking a finger in.

Being Ms "Knuckles' Vrooman, may I describe my method?
To me bonsai is a hands on endeavor. I use my
fingers as a tool rather than a chopstick. I actually
feel the soil with my fingers to see if it feels moist
or not. In a loose mix, one can push a finger down
and test for moisture in knuckle depths. Some trees
have to be waterd if the soil is dry at one knuckle
some at the second knuckle. I also used to push soil
in around roots with my fingers as well as a chopstick
to get the feeling of where and how the soil was
located. The arthritis doesn't allow me this luxury
anymore. Also not feasable for shohin as some pots
are less than knuckle deep, but you catch my drift.

Another knowing if you have enough water trick is to
feel the weight of the pot when the soil is moist and
compare that to the weight of the pot when the soil is
dry. If the pot feels heavy, you do not need to
water.
Of course if you have a two person or three person
tree, this is not feasable.

You can talk to plants and they to you, its just not
with words. You have to sniff and look as a means of
listening. You can have all sorts of measuring
devices, soil mixes, fertilizers, etc, but still not
hear what your plants need. You need to have a sense
about the plants or no tools can save you. You must
know how and wjen to use tools.

Kitsune Miko

=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

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Nina -- I have a notebook with most if not all of your posts in it. I
print them out, three hole punch and put them there. I consider it one
of my best reference books. Along with a few other regular posters on
this list. Mr. Jim Lewis, Gardenworks etc. It will not be long before
I am going to need notebook, Vol 2. THANKS! to all who post on a
regular basis to this list. I do miss Colin's posts now that he has
moved to the USA. Hope he is just too busy to post. Just for the
record, I also enjoy Iris posts, but I still need to take some
high school courses in plant names. After losing about fifty percent of
the plants that I have purchased, I am finally starting to learn that
different plants require different care. I would give up attempting to
keep Bonsai if it were not for this list. I started with the Newsgroups
and then moved over to the list, about five years ago.

Hal - who is still a beginner after five years.


Kitsune Miko wrote:

Nina yours are posts I seldom delete unless a triangle
of time and circumstances prohibit reading. Rave on oh
priestess of pathology.

Kits



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janhal wrote:

I would give up attempting to
keep Bonsai if it were not for this list. I started with the Newsgroups
and then moved over to the list, about five years ago.

Hal - who is still a beginner after five years.

This is just the kind of evidence I was hoping for rather than peoples
estimates and intuitions. I'll say no more on the newsgroups issue.

Have to say also that I agree about the group, I'm inspired everyday.

Richard


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janhal wrote:

I would give up attempting to
keep Bonsai if it were not for this list. I started with the Newsgroups
and then moved over to the list, about five years ago.

Hal - who is still a beginner after five years.

This is just the kind of evidence I was hoping for rather than peoples
estimates and intuitions. I'll say no more on the newsgroups issue.

Have to say also that I agree about the group, I'm inspired everyday.

Richard


--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 1/3/2005

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Hal, who is still a beginner after 5 years
Marty, who is still a beginner after 45 years

----- Original Message -----
From: "janhal"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: [IBC] Nina, others and this list





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Hal, who is still a beginner after 5 years
Marty, who is still a beginner after 45 years

----- Original Message -----
From: "janhal"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: [IBC] Nina, others and this list





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Marty Haber wrote:

Hal, who is still a beginner after 5 years
Marty, who is still a beginner after 45 years
45 yars of age or 45 years of Bonsai ?

----- Original Message ----- From: "janhal"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: [IBC] Nina, others and this list





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--
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Private Mail :
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Theo wrote:

Marty Haber wrote:

Hal, who is still a beginner after 5 years
Marty, who is still a beginner after 45 years
45 yars of age or 45 years of Bonsai ?

Marty can respond for himself, but I've met him, and he's been doing bonsai about as
long as I've been alive. You should see his trees!

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Craig Cowing wrote:

Theo wrote:


Marty Haber wrote:


Hal, who is still a beginner after 5 years
Marty, who is still a beginner after 45 years

45 yars of age or 45 years of Bonsai ?


Marty can respond for himself, but I've met him, and he's been doing bonsai about as
long as I've been alive. You should see his trees!

Craig Cowing

I believe you , I'd be delighted to see them also...

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