On 12 Jan 2005 at 6:21, Nina wrote:

This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that
much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago),
there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the
same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that
is, that root on low branches that touch the ground.

Ahh, but these are different. There's nothing inhibiting the 2-
way flow of plant juices as there is in a layer where you've
used a tourniquet or have cut away a ring of bark through the
cambium.

I almost always use the ground-layering method on azaleas and
have gotten several plants off one stem, though some of them
were pretty short. ;-)

Roots that emerge
from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark
layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin
and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other
things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it
smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and
auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle
air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the
girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed),
and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such
as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle
sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment,
and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle
sites. Hope that makes sense.....

Uhm . . . ?

However, anyone is free to try this method and report back to
us. (hint)

I'M not brave enough to do it on anything I want to keep.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

On 12 Jan 2005 at 6:21, Nina wrote:

This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that
much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago),
there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the
same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that
is, that root on low branches that touch the ground.

Ahh, but these are different. There's nothing inhibiting the 2-
way flow of plant juices as there is in a layer where you've
used a tourniquet or have cut away a ring of bark through the
cambium.

I almost always use the ground-layering method on azaleas and
have gotten several plants off one stem, though some of them
were pretty short. ;-)

Roots that emerge
from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark
layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin
and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other
things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it
smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and
auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle
air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the
girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed),
and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such
as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle
sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment,
and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle
sites. Hope that makes sense.....

Uhm . . . ?

However, anyone is free to try this method and report back to
us. (hint)

I'M not brave enough to do it on anything I want to keep.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim Lewis wrote:

On 12 Jan 2005 at 6:21, Nina wrote:

This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii
graphic has finally clued me in. From what I know about root
formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology
course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get
two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all
the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low
branches that touch the ground.


Ahh, but these are different. There's nothing inhibiting the 2-
way flow of plant juices as there is in a layer where you've used a
tourniquet or have cut away a ring of bark through the cambium.

But in the instance, there is neither tourniquet nor a ring of bark
cut. It's a saw cut partway through the branch from beneath. The bark
is interrupted only on the bottom of the branch, so "plant juices" can
still flow along the top.

I almost always use the ground-layering method on azaleas and have
gotten several plants off one stem, though some of them were pretty
short. ;-)


Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and
form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are
influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar).
Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the
combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in
sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will
come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle
air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of
the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been
severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a
double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch
between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new
"apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel
pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes
sense.....

Actually, it isn't a full girdle. The cuts are sawn upwards partially
through the branch but the remaining bark is left intact. So the
upward-growing branch and the the parent branch are both still
maintaining sugar and auxin movement during the layering process.

Uhm . . . ?

However, anyone is free to try this method and report back to us.
(hint)

Already did.

Pastorio

I'M not brave enough to do it on anything I want to keep.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim Lewis wrote:

On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote:


I have the book in ASCi it looks like this"

|airlayer
|
______ ______ _______ branch tip

| |

cut cut

There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at
the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss,
wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of
the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether
roots also from on the piece more towards the branch
tip.

They do. Or at least did on my one try at it. I didn't bother to save
it, thought, because it was an uninteresting branch.

This seesm to be a variation on the
put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-bury-in-the-ground
technique. but on that one the roots form at the end
of the growing tip.

Kits

Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients,
water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get
roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at
neither place.

It works. I did an upward-growing branch on a ficus this way.
Obviously, the base horizontal branch was sacrificed beyond the first
cut. I did the two cuts, put thin strips of plastic into them that
extended beyond the cut edges to keep them open. Dusted it all with
rooting hormone and packed it in peat moss. Worked fine.

When I had roots I liked, I cut the horizontal branch off at the cut
farthest from the trunk, and then the other one. Shaved bark on the
bottom of the remaining bit of the horizontal branch where more roots
grew over time. Planted the layered tree and grew it until 4 years ago
when I gave it to a friend as a gift.

_I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at
least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the
other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully
supporting the new plant.

The method of this approach is detailed in Naka "Bonsai Techniques 11"
on page 3. I did it pretty much as he explained it there with the
addition of the plastic pieces. I was concerned that the cuts would
heal so I made it impossible.

Pastorio

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Nina: You are absolutely correct. Since Jim thought the other way, I also
got confused. In succulents sometimes we cut a number of pieces from a
columnar plant and put it on sand to root and they root easily (provided
these are not put upside down). Likewise I have seen many plant lovers
cutting Dieffenbachia stem into pieces to propagate more plants. Besides
this, in Bonsai Art we make several cuts on the under-side of a branch or on
one side of the trunk and root it by ground-layering, to train it into a
Raft/Sinuous style! I once demonstrated air layering on a Ficus infectoria
branch at three points to three different group of students. Interestingly
the roots emanated from all three points from the cambium layer on the
upper cut!

Thank you for clearing the confusion.

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nina"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:51 PM
Subject: [IBC] airlayering questions


This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that
much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago),
there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the
same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that
is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge
from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark
layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin
and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other
things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it
smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and
auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle
air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the
girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed),
and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such
as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle
sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment,
and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle
sites. Hope that makes sense.....


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

there are different ways of air layering according the thickness of the
branche and the species of the plant
you can cut a ring of bark as thick as the diameter of the branch
is, remove teh bark and make some more carving on the cambium
you can strangle under with a wire that fits in a carved ring
and apply hormon and sphagnum
you can instead cut scales and put a stone and hormons and spagnum
to keep the scales open
you can make half a cut and put a plastic sheat in between like a
credit card blade and sap will not flow trough this part and make
roots only from this side ..
you can bent a bench e keep it in the soil with a fork to roots
it all depends why you are making air layering and which result you
are looking for your possibilities of action


Bob Pastorio wrote:

Jim Lewis wrote:

On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote:


I have the book in ASCi it looks like this"

|airlayer
|
______ ______ _______ branch tip

| |

cut cut

There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at
the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss,
wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of
the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether
roots also from on the piece more towards the branch
tip.


They do. Or at least did on my one try at it. I didn't bother to save
it, thought, because it was an uninteresting branch.

This seesm to be a variation on the
put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-bury-in-the-ground
technique. but on that one the roots form at the end
of the growing tip.

Kits

Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc.
are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both
places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place.


It works. I did an upward-growing branch on a ficus this way.
Obviously, the base horizontal branch was sacrificed beyond the first
cut. I did the two cuts, put thin strips of plastic into them that
extended beyond the cut edges to keep them open. Dusted it all with
rooting hormone and packed it in peat moss. Worked fine.

When I had roots I liked, I cut the horizontal branch off at the cut
farthest from the trunk, and then the other one. Shaved bark on the
bottom of the remaining bit of the horizontal branch where more roots
grew over time. Planted the layered tree and grew it until 4 years ago
when I gave it to a friend as a gift.

_I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least
one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a
few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant.


The method of this approach is detailed in Naka "Bonsai Techniques 11"
on page 3. I did it pretty much as he explained it there with the
addition of the plastic pieces. I was concerned that the cuts would
heal so I made it impossible.

Pastorio

************************************************** ******************************

++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************


-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

Anil Kaushik wrote:

Nina: You are absolutely correct. Since Jim thought the other way, I also
got confused. In succulents sometimes we cut a number of pieces from a
columnar plant and put it on sand to root and they root easily (provided
these are not put upside down). Likewise I have seen many plant lovers
cutting Dieffenbachia stem into pieces to propagate more plants. Besides
this, in Bonsai Art we make several cuts on the under-side of a branch or on
one side of the trunk and root it by ground-layering, to train it into a
Raft/Sinuous style! I once demonstrated air layering on a Ficus infectoria
branch at three points to three different group of students. Interestingly
the roots emanated from all three points from the cambium layer on the
upper cut!
air layering means that the future bonsai stay attached to the main
one until does not make his roots to survive
what you do cutting a branche or a trunk in segment and putting into
soil is a different method of propagation and is called * cutting* when
you prune your maple or punica granatum or Forsyzia or mume you can
cut long stems into few smaller ones that has to be buried 2/3 to
produce roots ( 19 cm per cutting is the minumum size normally
e to make a raft shaving one side of a plant but keeping his roots
still attached to the main trunk until the shaved part produce roots is
not air layering either ! it is a one of the possible techniques to
make rafts



Thank you for clearing the confusion.

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nina"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:51 PM
Subject: [IBC] airlayering questions



This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that
much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago),
there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the
same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that
is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge
from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark
layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin
and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other
things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it
smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and
auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle
air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the
girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed),
and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such
as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle
sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment,
and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle
sites. Hope that makes sense.....



************************************************** **************************
****

++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++


************************************************** **************************
****

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++



************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

I think various plants do better with vartious
treatments. Some are easy to root and some are not. I
have a sacrificial branch on a trident about 1.5
inches in diameter. I am going to try several
airlayers as I really should cut off the branch at
toss it (like at 64 I need to start more cuttings) So
I will do this out of curiosity.

Kits
--- Theo wrote:

there are different ways of air layering according
the thickness of the
branche and the species of the plant
you can cut a ring of bark as thick as the
diameter of the branch
is, remove teh bark and make some more carving on
the cambium
you can strangle under with a wire that fits
in a carved ring
and apply hormon and sphagnum
you can instead cut scales and put a stone and
hormons and spagnum
to keep the scales open
you can make half a cut and put a plastic sheat in
between like a
credit card blade and sap will not flow trough
this part and make
roots only from this side ..
you can bent a bench e keep it in the soil with
a fork to roots
it all depends why you are making air layering
and which result you
are looking for your possibilities of action


Bob Pastorio wrote:

Jim Lewis wrote:

On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote:


I have the book in ASCi it looks like this"

|airlayer
|
______ ______ _______ branch tip

| |

cut cut

There is a bottom cut, but not all the way
through at
the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss,
wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either
side of
the above indicated airlayer. My question is
whether
roots also from on the piece more towards the
branch
tip.


They do. Or at least did on my one try at it. I
didn't bother to save
it, thought, because it was an uninteresting
branch.

This seesm to be a variation on the
put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-bury-in-the-ground
technique. but on that one the roots form at the
end
of the growing tip.

Kits

Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how
nutrients, water, etc.
are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could
get roots in both
places; you might be in danger of getting roots
at neither place.


It works. I did an upward-growing branch on a
ficus this way.
Obviously, the base horizontal branch was
sacrificed beyond the first
cut. I did the two cuts, put thin strips of
plastic into them that
extended beyond the cut edges to keep them open.
Dusted it all with
rooting hormone and packed it in peat moss. Worked
fine.

When I had roots I liked, I cut the horizontal
branch off at the cut
farthest from the trunk, and then the other one.
Shaved bark on the
bottom of the remaining bit of the horizontal
branch where more roots
grew over time. Planted the layered tree and grew
it until 4 years ago
when I gave it to a friend as a gift.

_I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really
wanted to get at least
one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then
the other layer in a
few years when the new roots are fully supporting
the new plant.


The method of this approach is detailed in Naka
"Bonsai Techniques 11"
on page 3. I did it pretty much as he explained it
there with the
addition of the plastic pieces. I was concerned
that the cuts would
heal so I made it impossible.

Pastorio



************************************************** ******************************


++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon
Manakitivipart++++


************************************************** ******************************



-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25
666 169 4
Private Mail :

«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry
.....be happy «»«»«»


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon
Manakitivipart++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++



=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Kitsune Miko wrote:

I think various plants do better with vartious
treatments. Some are easy to root and some are not. I
have a sacrificial branch on a trident about 1.5
inches in diameter. I am going to try several
airlayers as I really should cut off the branch at
toss it (like at 64 I need to start more cuttings) So
I will do this out of curiosity.

Kits
--- Theo wrote:

why not
Trident like most of maples rootens very easily
start in spring it takes from 3 to 6 months
do you rimember you told me thaht colored maples rootens less well? I
have a strange one with weeping branches and yellowish orange leaves
that I airlayered in april and had no roots in july and plenty in
september ..
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:06:14 -0800, Kitsune Miko wrote:

I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on
the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of
overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I
should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers,
then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is
rooted and stable.

Kitsune Miko


As long as there is sufficient foliage between the layering sites, many
species will respond favorably.

Rick Choate
Mission, Tx

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++