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Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner)
Hi all,
I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin because of this. Namely: - When should I plant the seeds? I was thinking May... - Any tips on the kind of soil to plant seedlings in? - Should I grow the seedlings in any kind of incubator, or is a small tray enough? Even in summer, it can get fairly cold here (10 deg celsius or lower at night) - Should I feed or just water seedlings? - How long should I give the seedlings before I move them outdoors? Should I move them outdoors at all, or keep them inside to protect them from the weather? - If I'm moving them outdoors, any tips on media to transplant them into? - When Winter arrives (which I'm sure it will), should I move them indoors, or put them in some kind of cold frame? Any more tips on growing in the UK by anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated. I know these plants take years to grow before work can begin, bit IMHO, that's part of the fun. I do plan on buying a cheap plant to practice my pruning on. Many thanks, DSt. |
synex wrote: I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed There's the easy way and the more complicated way. The easy way is to plant seeds in some pots in fall and let them spend the winter outside. That way, they get their cold requirement the old-fashioned natural way, and they germinate in spring when they ought to. If you do anything else, you risk having delicate seedlings at the wrong time of year (for instance, you're just asking for problems if you germinate maples during the winter and have to keep tiny seedlings alive until spring). However, if you're trying to grow something that's not Scotland-hardy, you have no choice but to go the other route, which is to stratify the seeds according to the directions you can get in a book like Dirr's "Reference manual of woody plant propagation". Right now I'm studying Viburnum, and I need a bunch of seedlings of different species. So I have a refrigerator at 4 C and an incubator at 20 C, and I follow the directions on how to treat the seeds (soak for 24 hr, or abrade to break the seed coat), then I put the seeds in moist vermiculite in a closed container (a ziplock baggie would be fine; I use Petri plates) and store them so many months at warm temperature and so many months at cold temperature, and then plant them (I have access to a greenhouse, luckily). I've been planting straight into turface, which is working fine since I have an overhead mist system. If you don't have something like that, you need to use a plastic-covered seedling starter kit (in which case, beware of moldy conditions)or a heavier potting mix (beware of damping-off). You may also want to invest in a bottom heat mat, since seedlings germinating into cold soil will be slow-growing and susceptible to damping off. Nina |
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Another way is the seed gets exposed to heavy frost which breaks the shell and lets water in. We can do this ourselves by putting the seeds in the fridge for a few weeks or months,depending on the species, or putting them in a pot of sand and leaving the pot outside all winter. This takes longer of course but as the year wakes up (soon please!) the seeds break dormancy and grow! Of course having posted the above you're probably wanting to grow seeds from Field maple (simple enough, just like regular seeds in a pot now) or pine which cant be grown from cutings by the layman. I've not had experience with pine seeds(well, Ive had one bad experience) but I'm sure theres plenty on here that have! hope this small book helps, Larry |
On Jan 25, 2005, at 12:18 PM, synex wrote:
Hi all, I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). snip If you're looking for a way to learn patience you've picked the hardest. Nobody on the list would say that it's a bad idea to start trees from seed. However, if it's the only way you're going to cultivate bonsai you'll have a very long wait. Any more tips on growing in the UK by anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated. I know these plants take years to grow before work can begin, bit IMHO, that's part of the fun. I do plan on buying a cheap plant to practice my pruning on. Many thanks, DSt. Buy a few junipers and learn how to style. You won't learn anything about styling by watching seedlings grow. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
synex wrote: Hi all, I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). you learn the same and quicker starting at mid way with a pre- bonsai .. startzing with seedling is just a lost of time.. do you think all people exibiting nice bonsai in houndreds of fairs all over the world started with seedlings when kids ? Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin because of this. Namely: Read Thomlinson .. he is a British citizen so he know what grows in your climate -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
It is not a bad idea to grow plants for Bonsai from seeds. The one most
significant factor in making a Bonsai is, TONS of PATIENCE. And if you plan making these from seeds, well you need TONS x TONS of patience! (easier said than done). Buying a potential Bonsai plant from a nursery or collecting it from the field is to save on time, which is more precious than the amount one spends on buying. In fact one buys nursery-men's TIME at a very cheap rate. However one can (should) grow seeds of those species which are not available in the nearby nurseries and garden centers. All the best! Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" ----- Original Message ----- From: "synex" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:48 PM Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner) Hi all, I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin............ Many thanks, DSt. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Anil Kaushik wrote: It is not a bad idea to grow plants for Bonsai from seeds. The one most significant factor in making a Bonsai is, TONS of PATIENCE. And if you plan making these from seeds, well you need TONS x TONS of patience! (easier said than done). Buying a potential Bonsai plant from a nursery or collecting it from the field is to save on time, which is more precious than the amount one spends on buying. In fact one buys nursery-men's TIME at a very cheap rate. However one can (should) grow seeds of those species which are not available in the nearby nurseries and garden centers. Great Master like Kyuzo Murata advice to start with pre bonsai it is more fun and you can laern quicker .. of course in Japan exists is a whole section of the economy based on that, so you can find bonsai in quite different degrees and quality suitable to your taste and purse I personally bought lovely maples in nursery for a cheap price and in 4 years become lovely specimens .. seed or not seed it is the know how and time that will make a bonsai , from seeds .is in my personal opinion, far more complicate especially when you are a beginner as you have no idea of what and whow to do and which result you will get by your actions moreover a new born planta is more delicate until has a developed root apapratus and bonsai technicque are not applicaple for the first 2 -3 years at least on deciduous .. on pines it takes 10 time more When you buy in a nursery you know what you buy as you see what you buy ,from seedlings the genes change so often you have a nice surprise or a bad surprise... the best way in this case is to make grafting .. the miracle to make teh *instant bonsai* has not been invented yet one of the main tools to make bonsai is patience and sorry but the person that has a nursery live on that as the pot makers live on that and you earn your money your way ! if you decide to take out time from your business to make a bonsai and pots and tools to avoid spending money with shops, it will cost you far more than buying things properly made for that each of us has to do his business.. sorry for this ranting but when needed is needed we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending HIS time to get it ! Cheers MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
All,
Many thanks for the advice. You've given me some good help. I will look at the books recommended, as learning is paramount for me. Several things though - I did state that I was going to get a small shrub to "practice" on, and I will. Secondly, growing from seed is something that will happen for me, so why spend 5 years learning how to prune/style a tree, and *then* put some seeds in the ground to have to wait another 2-3 years when I can plant these now and practice on a shrub at the same time? That means I learn about growing from seed as well as learning about fully-grown plants. Incidentally, if anyone can recommend somewhere in the UK which will sell me a reasonably-sized, healthy bonsai, I would appreciate it. Most of the nurseries that do supply Bonsai will not move them by post, and are a little far away for me. Finally, to the peron that said "we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending HIS time to get it !" - I *AM* spending time to acquire knowledge, that's my purpose of being here. It's not about getting the most information for the least amount of work, which is what you seem to imply. The internet is a rich resource, and I am using it. Many thanks, once again, all. I'll let you know how things go... DSt. |
Incidentally - is it worth my while heading out into the wild and
trying to pick up some young trees? Obviosuly things like Scot's Pine and other attractive trees will be available in my area - but if they haven't been attended to from the beginning, will they be worth working on? And another question I forgot to ask - someone mentioned the "natural" germination - leaving them out in the frost and gradually progressing into summer. Would this be worth trying now? And if so, do I just put them straight into the ground and let them fend for themselves? Bearing in mind it's getting several degrees below zero, at the moment. |
synex wrote: All, Many thanks for the advice. You've given me some good help. I will look at the books recommended, as learning is paramount for me. Several things though - I did state that I was going to get a small shrub to "practice" on, and I will. Secondly, growing from seed is something that will happen for me, so why spend 5 years learning how to prune/style a tree, and *then* put some seeds in the ground to have to wait another 2-3 years when I can plant these now and practice on a shrub at the same time? That means I learn about growing from seed as well as learning about fully-grown plants. Incidentally, if anyone can recommend somewhere in the UK which will sell me a reasonably-sized, healthy bonsai, HI read first and learn .. from now to spring you have enough time to have teh ideas more clear about .. the Thomlinson books gives also the species that are suitable for a bonsai and how to choose them according some rules not all trees are suitable and some are more suitable tha others to try to explain all in few mails will only lead you intop a big confusion reading a book you'll see your preferences in matter of trees and teh eventual difficulties involved .. and with time you'll see more and more clear and make your own choices I would appreciate it. Most of the nurseries that do supply Bonsai will not move them by post, and are a little far away for me. Finally, to the peron that said "we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending HIS time to get it !" - I said so ! and I was talking of the time that people has spent to make out of the Bonsai a profession ,and a living it was not direct to you anyway I *AM* spending time to acquire knowledge, we all do, did, will do in future that's my purpose of being here. It's not about getting the most information for the least amount of work, which is what you seem to imply. you might have receptioned it this way , it was not my intention , but unfortunately, as I am on 4 different NG spanish italian english and french , I realized this is a sad reality The internet is a rich resource, and I am using it. Many thanks, once again, all. I'll let you know how things go... Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ... can be a rich complement though! I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind... but a do as you please.. MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote:
Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ... can be a rich complement though! I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind... but a do as you please.. Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him; the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page; hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug) I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but other studies (above) have filled in the gap. (And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?" I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-) GOTO: http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/ Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL." - Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 26 Jan 2005 at 3:39, synex wrote:
Incidentally - is it worth my while heading out into the wild and trying to pick up some young trees? Obviosuly things like Scot's Pine and other attractive trees will be available in my area - but if they haven't been attended to from the beginning, will they be worth working on? Arguably, the best bonsai are from collected material. But you only collect material that has potential because you cannot change the basic shape of a mature plant -- dwarfed or not -- and why bother to dig young material? How do you recognize the potential in a scraggly, runted tree? Experience. Neophyte collectors should go with experienced bonsaiests the first few times out. ONLY collect with PERMISSION of landowner. (Unless you're happy in jail.) And another question I forgot to ask - someone mentioned the "natural" germination - leaving them out in the frost and gradually progressing into summer. Would this be worth trying now? And if so, do I just put them straight into the ground and let them fend for themselves? Bearing in mind it's getting several degrees below zero, at the moment. As with some many things in the bonsai world, "it depends." You are asking questions whose answers properly are learned after formal training and years of experience. It will depend upon the species. It will depend on how fresh the seeds are. It will depend on your climate. it will depend on your experience. It will depend on you ability to tend the seeds, it will depend on . . . the list of "depends" is almost endless. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. Except, for someone with as little apparent experience as you have at present, "no." This is yet ANOTHER example of how the I'net is a poor place to learn bonsai (or, more properly here, horticultural) techniques from scratch. Once your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by someone. (?!) You need to find a local bonsai club and pick up a local mentor who can guide you though the plants that grow where you live in your climate, etc. Sorry to be so blunt, but . . . Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Jim asked: How do you recognize the potential in a scraggly, runted tree?
Answer: Develop your "inner eye". I once went out with a friend looking for potentsai. He spotted a beautiful beech. I knew right away it would be a loser; but he insisted, so I pitched in to help him dig it. Why did I think it was not suitable? 1. I knew that beeches have roots that cling to the surface and stretch out many meters from the trunk. 2. The lowest branch was more than a meter from the base. While he was busy with his beech, I looked around and found 5 little mountain laurels. It took me 5 minutes to dig all of them. After we lugged his beech to the wagon, I brought over my little treasure trove. "Where did you find them", he asked, " I didn't see them while I was looking." When I told him that my inner eye found them, he looked at me quizzicaly and remained quiet for a long time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:50 AM Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
HI Pauline
This is why I adviced Harry Tomlinso as is an English person living in GB and using local stock or foreign under the british climate as a starting book for the next 4-6 years is perfect useless to start with big caliphers .. Pauline Muth wrote: IF you are stuck in an area with no bonsai club or studio to learn at, do try the following books: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques I and II American Bonsai Society Correspondence Course by Tom Zane David De Groot' s Bonsai Design ( Through American Bonsai Society) These can these you the basics and are thoroughly tested and have great information. But all in all you MUST get seasonal information and local species information from people in your area. Keep growing Pauline F Muth Zone 4 West Charlton NY USA www.pfmbonsai.com -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Jim Lewis Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:38 AM To: Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner) On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote: Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ... can be a rich complement though! I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind... but a do as you please.. Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him; the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page; hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug) I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but other studies (above) have filled in the gap. (And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?" I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-) GOTO: http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/ Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL." - Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the
wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell. Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn - I agree that someone showing you how to do things is much preferable, but I don't have that luxury, so I'm doing the best I can with the resources available. As I said before, time will tell. As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see how I go. Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. I would like to say, however, that some of you have a rather negative attitude, especially since, IMHO, as experienced (I assume) boinsaiers , I would have thought you would have been glad that someone new is showing a keen interest in the art. Several of you keep bemoaning the fact (or so it seems to be implied) that I am looking for "quick answers", a "quick fix", or that I'm somehow undermining your own time taken to learn by asking direct questions and not experienceing things for myself. I think you have to open your eyes to the fact that to learn, I HAVE TO START *SOMEWHERE*. So here I am, starting out, like it or not. Jim said (and I'm not knocking you here Jim - I appreaciate the help) "Once your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by someone. (?!)". I put this to you - how can I ask "targetted" questions without any experience? And no, I'm not asking for anyone to write me a book on propogation as you put it, just general, helpful advice for a beginner. Ie, "most seeds will need a couple of months in the fridge with damp vermiculite in a baggie" is incredibly helpful. Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not. Regards, and no offence intended, DSt. |
On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote:
Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell. You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any MORE advice? Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn - I agree that someone showing you how to do things is much preferable, but I don't have that luxury, so I'm doing the best I can with the resources available. As I said before, time will tell. You live alone somewhere? in a cave, with no one living within 100 miles? As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see how I go. As far as I am concerned, that is environmentally unacceptable behavior. If you don't know how to collect a tree it WILL die. Guaranteed. Maybe you need to make a little effort to find a club or someone. Growers of bonsai are more common than you think. Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. I would like to say, however, that some of you have a rather negative attitude, especially since, IMHO, as experienced (I assume) boinsaiers , I would have thought you would have been glad that someone new is showing a keen interest in the art. Several of you keep bemoaning the fact (or so it seems to be implied) that I am looking for "quick answers", a "quick fix", or that I'm somehow undermining your own time taken to learn by asking direct questions and not experienceing things for myself. I think you have to open your eyes to the fact that to learn, I HAVE TO START *SOMEWHERE*. So here I am, starting out, like it or not. Jim said (and I'm not knocking you here Jim - I appreaciate the help) "Once your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by someone. (?!)". I put this to you - how can I ask "targetted" questions Find a book of plant propagation. There are several. Google for info on "cuttings" (as a start). Try a garden web site if you MUST learn from the web. But SURELY there is a garden club somewhere in your nearby area (unless you live in Antarctica. Join it. (Or find a little old lady who has been gardening for 50 years.) Get to know the people. Growing flowers and veggies is quite similar to bonsai in some respects, and gardeners have shrubbery that the grow from cuttings and layering and other means. Some of the them may even do a bonsai or two. Anyway, the garden club can get you started, with LOCAL information. We/I can not do that. Nor can we SHOW you how to cut a cutting, do an air layer, etc., except in the most general sense. Someone in the garden club can do that. without any experience? And no, I'm not asking for anyone to write me a book on propogation as you put it, just general, helpful advice for a beginner. Ie, "most seeds will need a couple of months in the fridge with damp vermiculite in a baggie" is incredibly helpful. But "MOST SEEDS" tells you absolutely nothing. The seeds you have may not BE "most seeds." Some may need to be cold stratified for X days, then set in a warm place for Y days. Or vice versa. Others may need to have their seed capsule nicked. Some are even bathed in a weak acid. Some have to be planted as soon as they are harvested or they will never germinate. It is NOT one size-fits all. Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not. Ah, but it should be, if you're willing to listen. Telling us that your're gonna grow from seed and damn the torpedos and full speed ahead also isn't too "helpful." You're asking us to assure you of something for which we cannot offer you any real assurance. Sorry you're unhappy with us. We do try to help. That's what we're here for. But you need to help us help you and at least make us think you're trying to help yourself. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Jim Lewis wrote:
On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote: Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell. You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any MORE advice? Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn As I read the responses, I didn't hear anyone saying that the internet and books were a bad way to learn. Quite the opposite--it is an excellent way to start. But a person needs to go beyond that. As I understood Jim's point about this, anyone can post something on a website that is totally inaccurate. Any monkey with a modem and computer can put up a website. In the same way, there are bonsai books which give erroneous advice. The point was to be discerning and get a consensus on where to start. snip As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see how I go. As far as I am concerned, that is environmentally unacceptable behavior. If you don't know how to collect a tree it WILL die. Guaranteed. You've got a tremendous resource for collecting in the wild right on this list--for that matter, on any aspect of bonsai. Any one of a number of people on the list, if they can't help you in person, could tell you how to collect a tree. I've collected dozens and dozens of trees. Certainly over a hundred at this point. Depending on the species I can help. There are many on the list in the UK who can give you detailed directions. Maybe you need to make a little effort to find a club or someone. Growers of bonsai are more common than you think. Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. Experience is certainly a good thing. Five years ago I was in the same situation as you, wanting to learn. I came on the list after having bought a mallsai and one book, wondering why my juniper that I kept indoors died. There are a few curmudgeons on the list who forget that they too were wondering why their first mallsai juniper died after they kept it indoors. ;0} snip Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not. Ah, but it should be, if you're willing to listen. Telling us that your're gonna grow from seed and damn the torpedos and full speed ahead also isn't too "helpful." You're asking us to assure you of something for which we cannot offer you any real assurance. Jim's right here, although his tone is rather strident. Let me offer an illustration from my line of work. As a pastor I do weddings. The first thing I have the wedding party do in the rehearsal the night before is to start at the end. I line them up in the front of the church as they will be standing when they process up the aisle. They are puzzled at first but I ask them to trust me, that I know what I'm doing. They realize when I send them down back to rehearse the processional that they know where they're going when they get up front. So it is with bonsai. When you're first learning it's better to start on something already further along in development so you'll understand how to take a tree from seedling to bonsai, if that's your goal. I realize it's a romantic thing to think about starting your first tree from seed, but the reality is that you're going to wait an awfully long time before you can do much of anything with it. snip Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac Don't give up too easily. Also, be willing to at least consider being pointed in a direction you may not have thought of. It's the best way to learn. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
HI Jim
I started doing bonsai 27 years ago and internet did not exist and I bought Remy Samson book as it was the only one available in french , I did not follow any tuition or club as tehy were 60 kilometers away and my sworking schedule as independent and my family did not allow me to do so .. I did not stat growing from seeds as I stared by mere curiosity when kid growin pine seeds and they died at repotting ( how many things I ingnored when kid ) but I did not forgot the experience I bought two main trees at teh evry beginning ma over 60 years old pentaphilla and a actually 45 years old deshojo maple , ( I coudl efford some expenses by then , and both are still alive 27 years later and I coudl do it only by myself and reading readin g reading my books until I could develope a sense of what to do and following the directives they gave .. I started 3 years ago some maple seedlings , beside of the fact that seedlings are often sligtly different from parent trees when taken on the wild ,and Palmatum maples are always mixing and producing new varieties , I realized how is long and and difficult to grow and shape a very young ana vigorous plant even if with all teh knowledge.. this is why I always advice newbies in bonsai to start with some gratifing and easy growing plant like punica granatum .. for those who live in a suitable climate for them of course , just to learn the art of bonsai and apply techniques or a fosythia or a jasminun mudiflorum pyracanta beberis or taxus baccata or small azaleas that are often sold by cheap in malls there are so many varieties easy growing even in cold climates that are easy to grow and to make gratifying experiences .. But most of newbes are focused on the myth of seedlings as the best way to see a tree growing .. and always choose Oaks , pines or olive trees !!!!! I wonder why ! I rememeber the first year I started with bonsai I almost made a depression in realizing how slow they grow and that a mistake would take years to be rectified .. anyway time will teach them the reality Jim Lewis wrote: On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote: Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell. You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any MORE advice? Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn - I agree that someone showing you how to do things is much preferable, but I don't have that luxury, so I'm doing the best I can with the resources available. As I said before, time will tell. You live alone somewhere? in a cave, with no one living within 100 miles? As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see how I go. As far as I am concerned, that is environmentally unacceptable behavior. If you don't know how to collect a tree it WILL die. Guaranteed. Maybe you need to make a little effort to find a club or someone. Growers of bonsai are more common than you think. Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. I would like to say, however, that some of you have a rather negative attitude, especially since, IMHO, as experienced (I assume) boinsaiers , I would have thought you would have been glad that someone new is showing a keen interest in the art. Several of you keep bemoaning the fact (or so it seems to be implied) that I am looking for "quick answers", a "quick fix", or that I'm somehow undermining your own time taken to learn by asking direct questions and not experienceing things for myself. I think you have to open your eyes to the fact that to learn, I HAVE TO START *SOMEWHERE*. So here I am, starting out, like it or not. Jim said (and I'm not knocking you here Jim - I appreaciate the help) "Once your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by someone. (?!)". I put this to you - how can I ask "targetted" questions Find a book of plant propagation. There are several. Google for info on "cuttings" (as a start). Try a garden web site if you MUST learn from the web. But SURELY there is a garden club somewhere in your nearby area (unless you live in Antarctica. Join it. (Or find a little old lady who has been gardening for 50 years.) Get to know the people. Growing flowers and veggies is quite similar to bonsai in some respects, and gardeners have shrubbery that the grow from cuttings and layering and other means. Some of the them may even do a bonsai or two. Anyway, the garden club can get you started, with LOCAL information. We/I can not do that. Nor can we SHOW you how to cut a cutting, do an air layer, etc., except in the most general sense. Someone in the garden club can do that. without any experience? And no, I'm not asking for anyone to write me a book on propogation as you put it, just general, helpful advice for a beginner. Ie, "most seeds will need a couple of months in the fridge with damp vermiculite in a baggie" is incredibly helpful. But "MOST SEEDS" tells you absolutely nothing. The seeds you have may not BE "most seeds." Some may need to be cold stratified for X days, then set in a warm place for Y days. Or vice versa. Others may need to have their seed capsule nicked. Some are even bathed in a weak acid. Some have to be planted as soon as they are harvested or they will never germinate. It is NOT one size-fits all. Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not. Ah, but it should be, if you're willing to listen. Telling us that your're gonna grow from seed and damn the torpedos and full speed ahead also isn't too "helpful." You're asking us to assure you of something for which we cannot offer you any real assurance. Sorry you're unhappy with us. We do try to help. That's what we're here for. But you need to help us help you and at least make us think you're trying to help yourself. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
HI Craig Craig Cowing wrote: On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Jim Lewis wrote: On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote: Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell. You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any MORE advice? Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn As I read the responses, I didn't hear anyone saying that the internet and books were a bad way to learn. Quite the opposite--it is an excellent way to start. I said so ! I use internet myself to find out some detailed answer that I can retrive only as I know the basic knowledge but without the basic know how internet is only growing lot of confusion in your mind as Jim said there are many "IF " in growing bonsai according the situation you are facing .. and also teh maturity and common sense of the person that is reading the web pages For the basic information is always useful IMHO for a newbe to have them from a valuable source of a well known and experienced bonsai grower written book .. You can read it as many times as you want and think until you correctly undestand what the writer ment ... you can check it in few seconds to find and compare the desease explained and the other on your tree.. not mentioning the trimming repotting varieties of soils and so on The ideal way to learn bonsai should be books experience and tuitions in a club .. all the 3 but when you do not have all tehse opportunities you start from teh basics your books and your neurones.. and than the net I have friends that know very little about bonsai but have skills in programmations and they made their *own * bonsai site grasping informations from wherever and frankly are often quite ridiculus .. reading an information from the net is not a garantee that is a real and valuable information unless comes from a very well know person like some we have here in the NG MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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