Jim

Absolutely! That IS the best SOLUTION. List members can and SHOULD do that.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"


If only we WOULD ignore them -- but we don't.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote:

Well, I decided to take a quick look at the first and
immediately discovered:

"There is currently a moratorium on converting unmoderated
newsgroups to moderated newsgroups, and proposals of that type
will not be accepted."


So, it was a thought. :-(

jim







I'm not terribly familiar with the process, but I dug up a few links to get
you started...

This page describes the process:

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

Here's a handbook for would-be moderators:

http://www.landfield.com/usenet/moderators/handbook/

Here's a FAQ:

http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html

And here's a page describing some of the problems & pitfalls:

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html

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I am for ignoring the problem - somehow I just know which posts don't have
anything to do with Bonsai and somehow I avoid reading them. We spend too
much time arguing about the problem and not enough effort ignoring the
idiots.

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I couldn't agree more. From local forsale newsgroups to programmers
newsgroups, the people here are nice and the spam is at a minimum.

If you check Ziff Davis and other online/offline newsletters and magazines,
spam is increasing exponentially. It is simply getting worse and worse. I
see very little here compared to elsewhere.

In the last issue, much was caused simply from cross-posting.

Set the mailing list to block cross-posts and then just us in RAB will get
the crap. I didn't see any posts from RAB members personally...just cross
posts in that last go-round. Bonsai engenders almost no crossposting at all
and would block maybe one in several hundred valid posts...which would still
get to RAB and if us RAB guys answered it, it would make it to the mailing
list.

If Jim wanted to clue me in on the service we use to send to a mailing list
from a newsgroup, I might could help implement that.

My (informed) $0.02 worth.

Like some of these other RAB posts mention, we are used to it and it really
isn't that bad...comparitively speaking to what's going on lately. If you
take alt.autos.ford, probably 30% of the new threads are crap.

John
still in Houston


"Nina" wrote in message
oups.com...
Every once in a while I consider joining another group; I listen to the
other group (Jazz, art, whatever) for a while and realize how GREAT
this group is- we are literate, we stay on topic, and we are nice. Our
problems with spammers and idiots are minor.

I like the community of my dear friends on the maillist, but I'd like
to reach out to newbies and lurkers on RAB without having to hang out
there. My time is limited and I have a dial-up connection!

Nina

In article 421F9D74.2233.13448DB@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote:

Well, I decided to take a quick look at the first and
immediately discovered:

"There is currently a moratorium on converting unmoderated
newsgroups to moderated newsgroups, and proposals of that type
will not be accepted."


So, it was a thought. :-(

Ah, obviously I hadn't read that far.

Well, another option would be to create a new moderated subgroup. They
seem to have been doing that for a couple other groups recently:

misc.writing.screenplays.moderated
http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=1103913022.6007%40isc.org

rec.woodworking.moderated
http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=1094517458.28066%40isc.org

Hi Jim
why not send every monday an automatic mail suggesting memebers
not to loose time in idle talk ar answering to banter/OT topics ..
after all most of people are "supposed to be adult* here and might
understand ..
In the french and some Italians site every monday the chart of the
NG is automatically published .
why not to do something here as well ?
my and only 2 cents to this topic
Theo



Jim Lewis wrote:

On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote:

Well, I decided to take a quick look at the first and
immediately discovered:

"There is currently a moratorium on converting unmoderated
newsgroups to moderated newsgroups, and proposals of that type
will not be accepted."


So, it was a thought. :-(

jim







I'm not terribly familiar with the process, but I dug up a few links to get
you started...

This page describes the process:

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

Here's a handbook for would-be moderators:

http://www.landfield.com/usenet/moderators/handbook/

Here's a FAQ:

http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html

And here's a page describing some of the problems & pitfalls:

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html

************************************************ ********************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************ ********************************

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++



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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

Dear Shelly

Immediately place offenders on a filter list, i usually use del key without
wasting any time to read or reply. , i have no knowledge of RAB.

keep up the difficult job of list owner.

ovais
Pakistan Bonsai Society

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Bonsai lurker wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:01:32 +0100, Eltee wrote:

Your isp can ban people from inappropriate posting on USENET, if, the
group is classified as a moderated group. I don't know if this one is
but surely one of the mods knows.

If it is moderated, you can then report the spammers for posting off
topic and harrassing posts. The reputable ones, especially the large
USENET providers will warn their customers.

Not 100% effective but it deters most nuisance posters.

I'd hate to rain on your parade but your "Not 100% effective" could as well be
"Not 10% effective". And that's not the worst news. The worst news is that with
just a little header hack one can bypass any moderation on any newsgroup. Not
even a hack, mind you. Just the right header.

And ... one more thing, dear lurker:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your
ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs.
Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to
completely ban somebody.

Bonsai lurker wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:01:32 +0100, Eltee wrote:

Your isp can ban people from inappropriate posting on USENET, if, the
group is classified as a moderated group. I don't know if this one is
but surely one of the mods knows.

If it is moderated, you can then report the spammers for posting off
topic and harrassing posts. The reputable ones, especially the large
USENET providers will warn their customers.

Not 100% effective but it deters most nuisance posters.

I'd hate to rain on your parade but your "Not 100% effective" could as well be
"Not 10% effective". And that's not the worst news. The worst news is that with
just a little header hack one can bypass any moderation on any newsgroup. Not
even a hack, mind you. Just the right header.

And ... one more thing, dear lurker:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your
ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs.
Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to
completely ban somebody.

I would like to see some moderation of the junk that is associated with this
list. One of the main problem is that many list members appear to reply to
many of this type of post, or is this just other spammers making it look
like this. Has any body thought to banning members who reply to spam. I am
willing to agree to any measure that would cut some, most , all of the
rubbish out.
Lynette
Sydney Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shelly Hurd"
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 February 2005 3:23
Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long



LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please
post ALL replies to the list.


Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager


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****
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I would like to see some moderation of the junk that is associated with this
list. One of the main problem is that many list members appear to reply to
many of this type of post, or is this just other spammers making it look
like this. Has any body thought to banning members who reply to spam. I am
willing to agree to any measure that would cut some, most , all of the
rubbish out.
Lynette
Sydney Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shelly Hurd"
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 February 2005 3:23
Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long



LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please
post ALL replies to the list.


Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager


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****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi all,

I'm new to the list, and haven't seen any spam yet. I was expecting my first
post to be about bonsai, but since this came up, I'll throw in my two
pennies

On Sunday 27 February 2005 21:41, lynette g smith wrote:
I would like to see some moderation of the junk that is associated with
this list. One of the main problem is that many list members appear to
reply to many of this type of post, or is this just other spammers making
it look like this. Has any body thought to banning members who reply to
spam. I am willing to agree to any measure that would cut some, most , all
of the rubbish out.
Lynette

Hmm... greedy organisations/people deliberately sabotaging a community for
their own ends is definitely not fun. Spam really bugs me, personally --
probably more than a lot of members.

However, sometimes it is genuinely hard for certain folks to tell the
difference, so I couldn't support banning people for being taken advantage
of.

Personally, I filter all my mail with spamassassin anyway. I get maybe 200 to
300 spams a day, but most of them are automatically filtered out. So in
fact, I only see about 10 to 20 of those spams, and then it's a simple matter
of moving them to the spam box to train the filter better for the future. If
anyone is suffering a lot of spam, whether from here or elsewhere, I'd
definitely recommend spamassassin or a mail client that can filter spam, such
as Mozilla Thunderbird (http://www.mozilla.org).

I think the usual control measures are to limit posting to the list to
registered list subscribers, and often to filter messages through
spamassassin BEFORE sending them out to everyone. Probably easier said than
arranged, though.

--
Lee.

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi all,

I'm new to the list, and haven't seen any spam yet. I was expecting my first
post to be about bonsai, but since this came up, I'll throw in my two
pennies

On Sunday 27 February 2005 21:41, lynette g smith wrote:
I would like to see some moderation of the junk that is associated with
this list. One of the main problem is that many list members appear to
reply to many of this type of post, or is this just other spammers making
it look like this. Has any body thought to banning members who reply to
spam. I am willing to agree to any measure that would cut some, most , all
of the rubbish out.
Lynette

Hmm... greedy organisations/people deliberately sabotaging a community for
their own ends is definitely not fun. Spam really bugs me, personally --
probably more than a lot of members.

However, sometimes it is genuinely hard for certain folks to tell the
difference, so I couldn't support banning people for being taken advantage
of.

Personally, I filter all my mail with spamassassin anyway. I get maybe 200 to
300 spams a day, but most of them are automatically filtered out. So in
fact, I only see about 10 to 20 of those spams, and then it's a simple matter
of moving them to the spam box to train the filter better for the future. If
anyone is suffering a lot of spam, whether from here or elsewhere, I'd
definitely recommend spamassassin or a mail client that can filter spam, such
as Mozilla Thunderbird (http://www.mozilla.org).

I think the usual control measures are to limit posting to the list to
registered list subscribers, and often to filter messages through
spamassassin BEFORE sending them out to everyone. Probably easier said than
arranged, though.

--
Lee.

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Shelly, this issue has come up fairly recently. I do not remember how I
found the list but feel it is a valuable adjunct to my continued education
in bonsai. I don't know how important the link to RAB is, that is for
others to decide.

My reasons for sending this are twofold:

First, we as individual users of the list (either directly or through the
digest) control what is in the archives. If we ignore the spam then it
takes very little space in the archives and could be edited out if necessary
(no, I'm not volunteering). All members of the List need to be more
responsible about replying to spam through the list. If in doubt, reply
directly to the original sender so your e-mails do not contribute to the
clutter in the archive. I know that I've recently skipped over the recent
spate of off-topic postings which have been making their way through the
list. If others had done the same, I'd have fewer postings to skip and the
archives would be less filled.

Second, if the archives are of concern (and they should be) then we should
all clip our return comments, such as this, to the original e-mail.

If we all do these two simple things, then the spam/off-topic problem will
become so minor as to be ignorable. So my post here is a plea for a bit of
personal restraint and responsibility.

Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a -

-----Original Message-----
From: Shelly Hurd ]
Subject: Admin - R.A.B. - Long

In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative /
off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through
rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and
fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage.

We/I have three alternatives:
.....
---------- CLIP ----------

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On 28 Feb 2005 at 10:53, Beckenbach, Jay wrote:

First, we as individual users of the list (either directly or through the
digest) control what is in the archives. If we ignore the spam then it
takes very little space in the archives and could be edited out if necessary

Well, it is possible to edit out individual messages, but it is
a tedious and VERY complicated process, and one that the
slightest error can (and will) mess up the entire archive
indexing scheme.

As former list manager, I would not recommend it to Shelly.

snip

Second, if the archives are of concern (and they should be)
then we should
all clip our return comments, such as this, to the original e-mail.

If we all do these two simple things, then the spam/off-topic problem will
become so minor as to be ignorable. So my post here is a plea for a bit of
personal restraint and responsibility.

Well, over I dunno how many years, I tried to educate members --
and probably got many of them mad at me -- during my tenure as
list manager. There are a number of IBCers who appear to be
uneducable, many of them, it seems, on RAB where we can do
little about it, and virtually ALL the offenders are non-dues-
paying users of the list and website. You all know who you are;
you've received everything from pleas to threats to get you to
snip messages and ignore junk, but you don't do it.

Education is LSoft's recommended approach, but it doesn't seem
to work very well on the IBC.

One of the problems, of course, is that we are continuously
getting new members.

Another is that "netiquette" (like etiquette in the real world)
seems to be one of the more UNimportant things in people's lives
these days. Too many folks just don't care how (or if) they
offend someone else -- on the internet or on Main Street.

For those who have never heard the tern "netiquette," go here --
and OBEY:

http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Ex
everything.

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