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Old 25-02-2005, 05:18 PM
Shelly Hurd
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long

List Members,

In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage.

We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion. After that I will close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done.

1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives).

I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom).

2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer have access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they do join, I could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the point of banishment from the list.

Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know that I would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to promote the art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us be found by newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are out there who read and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to post weekly/bi-monthly messages to RAB so that those searching can be invited to the list and find the knowledge they seek. I do know that we currently have 540 subscribed members.

3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload.

540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list.


Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

  #2   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 05:36 PM
Pauline Muth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I recently rejoined after many years away. I stopped IBC before because of
garbage but decided to give it another chance.
Truthfully I am ready to quit again....what I want is bonsai only
discusssions. Please do whatever is needed to accomplish this.
Pauline

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Shelly Hurd
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:24 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long


List Members,

In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative /
off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through
rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and
fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage.

We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not
open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I
strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion.
After that I will close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done.

1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly
disregarded and which also fill the archives).

I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let
most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you
that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management
from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or
isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's
limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned
(thanks Tom).

2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be
spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer have
access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they do join, I
could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the point of
banishment from the list.

Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know that I
would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to promote the
art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us be found by
newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are out there who read
and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to post weekly/bi-monthly
messages to RAB so that those searching can be invited to the list and find
the knowledge they seek. I do know that we currently have 540 subscribed
members.

3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of
us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of
course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option
would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB;
their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list
archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only
messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot
to my workload.

540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is,
after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the
purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list.


Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #3   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 05:45 PM
Carl Rosner
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Shelly:
I try to be a lurker and only jump in when I can add something to the Bonsai conversations.

I personally, think that you have to make the decision! Your work is cut out for you, but when one of those asinine posts come in I delete it and or tell my ISP to put it on the spam list!

If our members and lurkers would refrain from answering and wasting band width, your life would be a lot easier. So that is how I as 1/540th of the list vote!

Carl
Shelly Hurd wrote:
List Members,

In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage.



Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7

www.carlrosner.com
http://www.yessy.com/arteacher3725
http://rosner.becanz.net

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #4   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 05:55 PM
Jon Morris
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My vote is to just put up with it... I read this list through email, and belong to about 14 other email lists as well. All of them have off topic posts, spam, etc. With a little organizational filtering (each group automatically moves to it's own folder) and a delete button (right under the 'insert' button on most keyboards ...) I am able to go through 800+ emails a day in my personal account.

Life on the Internet unfortunately has spam and trolls. That is just the way it is. By sheltering yourself trying to hide from it, you will end up with a small closed little community of people with the same ideas and never any new blood to ask those questions about the juniper with glued on rocks. If we do sever the RAB link, and still get spam and trolls, what's next? Invite only to join the group? That way if someone invites a new user to join, and they post off-topic or cause a commotion, we can ban both the new user and the person that invited them... hmm...

Thanks. I will go back to lurking now...
Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club on behalf of Shelly Hurd
Sent: Fri 2/25/2005 8:23 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long



SNIP

1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives).

I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom).

SNIP

540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list.


Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager





  #5   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 06:00 PM
Peter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A short opinion:

Recommend severing the RAB link.
Those who interested enough in bonsai will find IBC through Google.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


  #6   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 06:12 PM
janhal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I know on Yahoogroups that you can place all new posters on
moderation. We do that with my big group. After they make one or two on
topic posts we then allow them un-moderated privileges. It has been a very
long time since I have worked with a "list-serve", but if it has that
ability then it gets my vote. If not, then your #3 gets my vote. I also
found this list via the newsgroup. I think a lot of the problem is members
of this list like to respond to off topic posts, which does nothing but add
more garbage to the archives. I guess they are not used to working with
newsgroups. There you just ignore the OT and keep on going. You also
learn to smudge your email address. I am afraid that if all members of
this group would vote they would do away with the tie to the newsgroup.

Hal - zone 7
Memphis TN

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #7   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 06:30 PM
Philip Diamond
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Friday, Feb 25, 2005, at 10:23 America/Chicago, Shelly Hurd wrote:

List Members,

In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of
argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts
all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my
time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be
politely described as garbage.


This was pretty much two threads. Those moron-a-thons seems to have
died out for now. The occasional storm of keyboard barf is an
inevitable consequence of being open to the world.

We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should
not open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss.
I strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this
discussion. After that I will close discussion and do what I feel
needs to be done.


1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen
(mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives).


I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer
to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me.
I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger
list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final
arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's
somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful
relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom).


I agree. If it at all related to bonsai in some way it is fine with me.
But then I'm pretty good with the delete key too. Unless the list is
being overwhelmed by trolls it is a worthwhile sacrifice IMHO.

2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be
spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer
have access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they
do join, I could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the
point of banishment from the list.


Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know
that I would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to
promote the art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us
be found by newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are
out there who read and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to
post weekly/bi-monthly messages to RAB so that those searching can be
invited to the list and find the knowledge they seek. I do know that
we currently have 540 subscribed members.


I also found the list via r.a.b. I'd have never heard of it otherwise.
Without it being connected to the list there is one fewer channel
available to promote both the IBC and bonsai in general. There is a
real danger of the list becoming both pure and extinct without some
source of new members.

If I could add a 2a) While I don't advocate reducing the link between
r.a.b and the list, could the link be made one way, so that the list
posts to r.a.b but not vice / versa? just tossing another (sub) option
into the mix. This would sanitize the list while still making it's
content available to the usenet public.

3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent
those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts
-- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending
post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other
offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on
RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except
for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go
to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload.


It would not work. Usenet trolls tend to post in packs and use sock
puppets (multiple identities) to chatter with and among themselves. You
would be chasing phantoms all day. Ignoring them drives them off pretty
quickly.

540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This
is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer.
For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the
list.


This lurker (when I have something worth saying about bonsai I will,
but my trees tell me I need to practice a lot before I start giving
anybody advice) recommends that we all try to maintain a sense of humor
about the whole thing. Jerks are just a fact of life. Think of them
like aphids. Poison gas isn't needed when a blast from the hose will
work.

************************************************** *********************
*********
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** *********************
*********
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
--

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++



************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #8   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 06:46 PM
Eltee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Shelly Hurd wrote:
List Members,


I'm not a member, but may I, being the culprit of this whole ... issue, also add
some thoughts? So, unless I'm not already banned, here it goes:

I don't understand the need for the IBC mailing list to be attached to r.a.b..
Mailing lists should be closed, period. Closed in a sense that at least a
(possibly free) registration is required.

Usenet, on the other hand, is open. If you make a hybrid, you should at least
make it moderated on the open end: messages posted on RAB should be approved by
a moderator before allowed into the mailing list.

That being said, may I ask you why the mailing list is at all necessary? I mean,
reading and posting to Usenet is almost identical to e-mail, archiving is taken
care of by Google. For free, may I add. With unlimited searching capabilities,
too. Which is more than a bargain, if you ask me.

---------

IBC has (at least) three means of communication:
1. Web-based forum (or, as it's called on IBC, interactive galleries).
2. Mailing list (e-mail).
3. Usenet (rec.arts.bonsai and alt.bonsai).

The first two are struggling with archiving problems, the third isn't. Now, if
you ask me, the web-based forum is more than enough. Having two means of
communication (web + mailing list) makes it more complicated, right? No? OK, if
not, then I don't see the problem of setting up one more account in ones mail
client to also handle a Usenet newsgroup. Which takes care of the detachment
problem: members of the mailing list wouldn't miss anything by being detached.
They should monitor the r.a.b. independently of the mailing list. Problem solved.

And another thing: just as you don't like r.a.b. "intruders" (me), I don't like
being lectured on Usenet (by a IBC mailing list moderator(s)) what I can and
can't do on the mailing list. Let me stress this: I have absolutely nothing to
do with the mailing list. That's entirely _your_ problem.
  #9   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 06:56 PM
Eltee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jon Morris wrote:
By sheltering yourself trying to hide from it,
you will end up with a small closed little community
of people with the same ideas and never any new blood


New blood has free access through
http://internetbonsaiclub.org/user_e...task,register/ , so ... no problem
there.
  #10   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 07:01 PM
Eltee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Carl Rosner wrote:

Your work is cut out for you, but when one of
those asinine posts


Asinine? Like those limerick banters you mean? I agree. ;-)

come in I delete it and
or tell my ISP to put it on the spam list!


That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your
ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs.
Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to
completely ban somebody.


  #11   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 07:38 PM
Jim Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 25 Feb 2005 at 11:34, Philip Diamond wrote: 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent
those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts
-- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending
post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other
offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on
RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except
for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go
to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload.


It would not work. Usenet trolls tend to post in packs and use sock
puppets (multiple identities) to chatter with and among themselves. You
would be chasing phantoms all day. Ignoring them drives them off pretty
quickly.


If only we WOULD ignore them -- but we don't.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #12   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 07:47 PM
Jim Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 25 Feb 2005 at 11:12, janhal wrote:

I know on Yahoogroups that you can place all new posters on
moderation. We do that with my big group. After they make one or two on
topic posts we then allow them un-moderated privileges. It has been a very
long time since I have worked with a "list-serve", but if it has that
ability then it gets my vote. If not, then your #3 gets my vote. I also
found this list via the newsgroup. I think a lot of the problem is members
of this list like to respond to off topic posts, which does nothing but add
more garbage to the archives. I guess they are not used to working with
newsgroups. There you just ignore the OT and keep on going. You also
learn to smudge your email address. I am afraid that if all members of
this group would vote they would do away with the tie to the newsgroup.



IF we could put RAB messages on "moderation" and I'm not sure we
could, that would be a LOT more work for Shelly.

But Shelly, you might want to ask ease-home if messages from
"Newsgate" (which, as the gateway, is subscribed to the list)
could be put on moderation. I'd never thought of that --
perhaps for good reason, since it means that the list manager --
YOU, Shelly -- would have to approve *every* posting from RAB.
:-( Aargh.

Jim Lewis - - Hit THINK before you hit SEND

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #13   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 08:17 PM
Lynn Boyd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A short opinion:

Recommend severing the RAB link.
Those who interested enough in bonsai will find IBC through Google.

Peter Aradi

--------------------------------

Over the 9 years I have been on the list I have learned to delete and stay
cool.
Nevertheless, it still has an effect which we cannot help having a reaction
to that isn't pleasant or healthy for anyone and casts a discouragment over
new-comers. As we know from a recent msg, it also is the cause of
returning-old-timers, with their wanted experience and help, to just leave
us again regretfully.

I support Peter's reaction to this - sever RAB and understand that
genuinely interested people who would like a good contact will find us
without difficulty.
I know I say this without possibly understanding a loss to some very
nice people on RAB, but we have carryed the burden for long enough -
hopefully they will understand. This situation could get worse.

There are times when the list has breaks of argumentive and even
unpleasant situations, but our nature is that we can accept that as a group
and tolerate our natural outbursts occasionally much like a family -
however - the spam is so aggressively and explosively intrusive it can spoil
a whole day without any reasonable understanding in our receiving it.

Shelly, we are much aware of the burden you carry, but I think, like
Peter, the time has come to close this uncontrollable intrusion; it will
be a representation of our best intentions for sincere bonsai folks and
those who support and work for the list.
Lynn

Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #15   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2005, 09:02 PM
John Grotts
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is how I found this lsit, I am a proud lurker who learns alot reading
my daily Bonsai fix. I do not mind deleting off topic posts, but those that
abuse the lsit are just annoying.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"

Speaking for myself, I did not find the list through RAB. I found it
through a Yahoo search on bonsai, and came directly to the IBC website.
I don't read newsgroups. I simply don't have the time. Maybe I'm
strange this way.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
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