In article ,
wrote:

The Cook wrote:

Where do you live?. Does anyone near you grow vegetables? If so, go
talk to them.

I live in north Missouri

From what I gather here..... it sound like growing a
food garden all year round is just impossible without a
significant investment in infrastructure

I guess I better move to Big Island Hawaii and do it
there! g

Naw. They don't have any topsoil and the weather never
gets cold enough to grow rhubarb, raspberries and other
good stuff.

Just visit Hawaii when you can : )

Jan, in Alaska

--
The way to a man's heart is between the fourth and the fifth rib.

simy1 wrote:
wrote:
The Cook wrote:

Where do you live?. Does anyone near you grow vegetables? If so, go
talk to them.

I live in north Missouri

From what I gather here..... it sound like growing a
food garden all year round is just impossible without a
significant investment in infrastructure

I guess I better move to Big Island Hawaii and do it
there! g

Huh? A PVC pipe for each hoop costs $1.60. 100 feet of 12 ft poly costs
$27. The clamps will cost you another $20, and you have to have some
bricks to hold down the poly on windy days (concrete chunks will do as
well). If treated well, the poly lasts three years and the clamps and
hoops last forever. You are looking at $15 per winter harvest.

Works if you don't live in a windy area. It's easier to hold down the
poly than to keep it from tearing. Hoop tunnels 2' or 3' may work
better in windy areas.

Don't expect summer crops under glass. It's too expensive to heat and
light. Still cheaper to air freight from the south. Winter hardy
stuff like lettuce and greens can grow in unheated hoop structures or
the regular cold frame..

In article ,
wrote:

The Cook wrote:

Where do you live?. Does anyone near you grow vegetables? If so, go
talk to them.

I live in north Missouri

From what I gather here..... it sound like growing a
food garden all year round is just impossible without a
significant investment in infrastructure

I guess I better move to Big Island Hawaii and do it
there! g

Yes things grow all year round on the Big Island but you also have a
real bug problem. Been there done that.
--
Chainyanker

The Guy wrote:

Yes things grow all year round on the Big Island but you also have a
real bug problem. Been there done that.

what did you do there?

can you share the story?

James wrote:

Huh? A PVC pipe for each hoop costs $1.60. 100 feet of 12 ft poly costs
$27. The clamps will cost you another $20, and you have to have some
bricks to hold down the poly on windy days (concrete chunks will do as
well). If treated well, the poly lasts three years and the clamps and
hoops last forever. You are looking at $15 per winter harvest.

Works if you don't live in a windy area. It's easier to hold down the
poly than to keep it from tearing. Hoop tunnels 2' or 3' may work
better in windy areas.


I live in a fairly windy area. It took me a couple winters to get the
tunnels down pat. You need clamps, double clamps at the end of the
tunnels, and a smooth tunnel with some poly laying on the path, wieghed
down by bricks, so that no air can get inside. I never had a blowout
when there is deep snow, it seals the tunnels perfectly.

simy1 wrote:


I live in a fairly windy area. It took me a couple winters to get the
tunnels down pat. You need clamps, double clamps at the end of the
tunnels, and a smooth tunnel with some poly laying on the path, wieghed
down by bricks, so that no air can get inside. I never had a blowout
when there is deep snow, it seals the tunnels perfectly.


Do you grow under them in the winter? If so, what can you grow? I've
done garlic uncovered but that's about it. I have two poly tunnels now
(and keep the plastic down with netting ...removing the plastic at the
height of summer and the net remains to keep out the hares). Would
onions survive the winter. As it stands, I can't get onions much bigger
than a golf ball. I wonder if planting in the fall would help that.

..

Zone 5a in Canada's Far East.

cloud dreamer wrote:

Do you grow under them in the winter? If so, what can you grow? I've
done garlic uncovered but that's about it. I have two poly tunnels now
(and keep the plastic down with netting ...removing the plastic at the
height of summer and the net remains to keep out the hares). Would
onions survive the winter. As it stands, I can't get onions much bigger
than a golf ball. I wonder if planting in the fall would help that.


I am not sure about regular onions because I grow multiplier onions,
which I plant in the fall, either covered or uncovered. They are
shallot-like, and about twice golf ball in volume, which is their
regular size. Under tunnels I maintain carrots, kale, collard,
radicchio, dandelion, bokchoi which were grown during the warm season
and attained full size in october. The tunnels also warm the beds
quickly in the spring.

"simy1",
I'm an escapee from the housing tracts so please abide me while I sort
out your greenhouse design.

With your 100' x 12' vinyl, you get a tunnel, that, in a perfect world,
can be no more than 3.82' tall, with a width of 7.64', right?
Practically, what is it? What grade and o.d. PVC pipe do you use for the
hoops? How many and what kind of clamps do you use, and where have you
found it most advantageous to place them? Double clamps? What's that?
Any special fold in the vinyl to seal the tunnel? What important
question didn't I ask?

So that give you an ideal maximum protected surface area of 352.79 sq.
ft. with no vinyl to lay the bricks, concrete, heavy somethin' on. What
is the reality? What measurements do you have for height, width, and
usable surface area in your green house?

How is the accessabilty? I'm about 6'2" and 250 lbs, Am I going to need
a mechanic's platform dollie to get in and out of the tunnel?

Sorry for so many questions but I already have enough chores and I'd
like to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

Thanks for your time,
- Bill

In article . com,
"simy1" wrote:

James wrote:

Huh? A PVC pipe for each hoop costs $1.60. 100 feet of 12 ft poly costs
$27. The clamps will cost you another $20, and you have to have some
bricks to hold down the poly on windy days (concrete chunks will do as
well). If treated well, the poly lasts three years and the clamps and
hoops last forever. You are looking at $15 per winter harvest.

Works if you don't live in a windy area. It's easier to hold down the
poly than to keep it from tearing. Hoop tunnels 2' or 3' may work
better in windy areas.


I live in a fairly windy area. It took me a couple winters to get the
tunnels down pat. You need clamps, double clamps at the end of the
tunnels, and a smooth tunnel with some poly laying on the path, wieghed
down by bricks, so that no air can get inside. I never had a blowout
when there is deep snow, it seals the tunnels perfectly.

William L. Rose wrote:
"simy1",
I'm an escapee from the housing tracts so please abide me while I sort
out your greenhouse design.

With your 100' x 12' vinyl, you get a tunnel, that, in a perfect world,
can be no more than 3.82' tall, with a width of 7.64', right?
Practically, what is it? What grade and o.d. PVC pipe do you use for the
hoops? How many and what kind of clamps do you use, and where have you
found it most advantageous to place them? Double clamps? What's that?
Any special fold in the vinyl to seal the tunnel? What important
question didn't I ask?

So that give you an ideal maximum protected surface area of 352.79 sq.
ft. with no vinyl to lay the bricks, concrete, heavy somethin' on. What
is the reality? What measurements do you have for height, width, and
usable surface area in your green house?

How is the accessabilty? I'm about 6'2" and 250 lbs, Am I going to need
a mechanic's platform dollie to get in and out of the tunnel?

Sorry for so many questions but I already have enough chores and I'd
like to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

Thanks for your time,
- Bill

I think with 12' wide sheets he's got hoop tunnels instead of hoop
house. One doesn't enter a hoop tunnel. You put the sheet over
growing plants and take it off to harvest. Of course he could have a
house if he puts the sheets on as 100' wide and 12' long.

A friend got the hoop house plan off the internet but used cheap vinyl
instead of greenhouse quality stuff. Winds torn the plastic the first
winter.

William L. Rose wrote:
"simy1",

With your 100' x 12' vinyl, you get a tunnel, that, in a perfect world,
can be no more than 3.82' tall, with a width of 7.64', right?
Practically, what is it? What grade and o.d. PVC pipe do you use for the
hoops? How many and what kind of clamps do you use, and where have you
found it most advantageous to place them? Double clamps? What's that?
Any special fold in the vinyl to seal the tunnel? What important
question didn't I ask?

Yes, the tunnels are low enough that you can crawl under. The beds are
about 25 ft long, and 4ft wide, so one sheet, cut into three, covers
them all with a few feet of waste. You need the sheets to be several
feet longer than the beds to tuck the ends properly.

You buy the PVC pipes at Home Depot that are, from memory, 3/4" thick.
You also buy the 100X12 rolls of clear plastic from the Paint section.
I prefer 4mils, but 6 or even 2 will usually do (I have tried all
three). The PVC pipes are 12 ft long. You cut them at an angle at the
tips, bend them, and stick them one foot into the ground on either
side. Total hoop length: 10 feet.

You can either put a hoop every four feet, which makes it a bit
difficult to maneuver a wheelbarrow, or every 7 feet, like I do, and
them put an extra pipe on top of the hoops for extra strength, secured
to the hoops with cable ties and a screw to avoid slipping. The top
pipes are connected to one another with PVC cement and a connector,
exactly as if you were building your plumbing.

Once you have all the hoops in place, and I leave them there, summer
and winter, you garden the beds normally until it is time to cover
them. The clamps can be found at Territorial Seeds and are half
cylinder that clamp onto the pipes tigthly, grabbing the plastic. They
are excellent. The one foot of plastic on either side (12-10=2) can be
held down with bricks. The ends, too, can be held down with bricks. The
secret to keep the tunnels going in windy weather is to make sure as
little air as possible comes in. Specially the ends, I put down a
continuous line of bricks to eliminate air leaks. If there is snow on
the ground, no air comes in and the seal is perfect.

The plastic I am suggesting is not UV-treated and is not indicated for
summer use. In my case, I use it for about 3-4 years, and typically I
toss it due to various mechanical tears, like when I try to get ice off
of it. There is negligible UV degradation in the winter. I cover on the
Thanksgiving weekend and uncover on April 1.


So that give you an ideal maximum protected surface area of 352.79 sq.
ft. with no vinyl to lay the bricks, concrete, heavy somethin' on. What
is the reality? What measurements do you have for height, width, and
usable surface area in your green house?

How is the accessabilty? I'm about 6'2" and 250 lbs, Am I going to need
a mechanic's platform dollie to get in and out of the tunnel?

It will be a bit harder for you to crawl under for winter harvest.
Undoing a tunnel is a chore,
so in the winter I harvest once a week, filling a couple of buckets of
greens. I undo only a section, on one side, then get under the plastic
on my knees. You should, like I do, get organized and have the greens
laid out so you harvest one section at a time. That is, if you have
carrots, beets, radicchio, and collard, you should have one row of
each, so you only need to uncover that section for a complete harvest.
Then there is no need for crawling up and down the bed, and no need to
uncover more than one section. Opening a section means removing the
clamps on two consecutive hoops on one side only. The plastic will have
enough slack to let you knee under it.

Tunnels are much better than greenhouses. They are cheaper, much warmer
for the same insulation, the thermal ballast is the soil itself (you
must not mulch), and they never run out of CO2, as greenhouses do,
because soil with high organic content will give off plenty of it. In
Michigan, the soil under the tunnels freezes for time periods of order
one or two days, but one sunny day is enough to unfreeze it. Outside
the tunnels, the soil freezes for about 10 weeks straight. I have two
hoophouses as well, but for a starter, tunnels are the best. Also, if
you seed under the tunnels in march, stuff will come up much earlier.


Sorry for so many questions but I already have enough chores and I'd
like to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

Thanks for your time,
- Bill

In article . com,
"simy1" wrote:

James wrote:

Huh? A PVC pipe for each hoop costs $1.60. 100 feet of 12 ft poly costs
$27. The clamps will cost you another $20, and you have to have some
bricks to hold down the poly on windy days (concrete chunks will do as
well). If treated well, the poly lasts three years and the clamps and
hoops last forever. You are looking at $15 per winter harvest.

Works if you don't live in a windy area. It's easier to hold down the
poly than to keep it from tearing. Hoop tunnels 2' or 3' may work
better in windy areas.


I live in a fairly windy area. It took me a couple winters to get the
tunnels down pat. You need clamps, double clamps at the end of the
tunnels, and a smooth tunnel with some poly laying on the path, wieghed
down by bricks, so that no air can get inside. I never had a blowout
when there is deep snow, it seals the tunnels perfectly.

simy1,
thanks for sharing your experience.
What would you think of a ridged frame for the tunnel? I'm thinking more
pvc across the bottom with Ts and rt. angle connectors to tie the bottom
of the tunnel together.

I don't have the mechanical problem of snow. I'm on the hilly edge of a
redwood (temperate rain) forest. When the wind howls on the flats around
here, we have a nice breeze. It can get windy but not extremely. Our
problem is that these humongs trees don't have tap roots and when they
come down (not if), they can slice a house in half like a birthday cake.
Fortunately, I am surrounded mostly by oak and bay. We get about 40" of
rain between Nov. and April. The temp may drop to 28F on occasion. I saw
frost four time last year, which is typical. Lastly, the Sun doesn't get
above the tree line from mid Dec. to mid Jan. During the summer, the
sweet part of my garden gets about 6hr/day of sun (the rest of the
garden gets less as it goes down the hill) and the temps are typically
in the high 80s.

Anyway, my thought is with a stiff frame, about 20' long, I could undo
the ends of the frame and one side and open it like a chest. Do my
gardening and then just re-dress the three edges. I'm presuming that
larger chunks of concrete or cinder blocks can compensate for the
inherent aerodynamics of the tunnel. I'd love to hear any thoughts.

I do get some detritus falling off the oaks and bays. The largest are
small limbs (1' - 1 1/2' x 1/2") that are totally rotten out (fairly
light). Can you quantify or qualify the strength of the vinyl?

Is there any problem with humidity in the tunnels? Do you ever have mold
or mildew problems?

Gratefully,
- Bill

William L. Rose wrote:
simy1,
thanks for sharing your experience.
What would you think of a ridged frame for the tunnel? I'm thinking more
pvc across the bottom with Ts and rt. angle connectors to tie the bottom
of the tunnel together.

It could work.


I don't have the mechanical problem of snow. I'm on the hilly edge of a
redwood (temperate rain) forest. When the wind howls on the flats around
here, we have a nice breeze. It can get windy but not extremely. Our
problem is that these humongs trees don't have tap roots and when they
come down (not if), they can slice a house in half like a birthday cake.
Fortunately, I am surrounded mostly by oak and bay. We get about 40" of
rain between Nov. and April. The temp may drop to 28F on occasion. I saw

If it goes down to 28, what do you need the tunnels for? There are two
dozens vegetables that take 10F when established. I don't think you
need tunnels.


Anyway, my thought is with a stiff frame, about 20' long, I could undo
the ends of the frame and one side and open it like a chest. Do my
gardening and then just re-dress the three edges. I'm presuming that
larger chunks of concrete or cinder blocks can compensate for the
inherent aerodynamics of the tunnel. I'd love to hear any thoughts.

I think it could work.


I do get some detritus falling off the oaks and bays. The largest are
small limbs (1' - 1 1/2' x 1/2") that are totally rotten out (fairly
light). Can you quantify or qualify the strength of the vinyl?

It is much stronger than it looks. I have had trees dump hundreds of
pounds on the tunnels without tearing the poly. It is polyethylene, not
vinyl.


Is there any problem with humidity in the tunnels? Do you ever have mold
or mildew problems?

Mildew when the night temps are 15F? No. Besides, all brassicas love
100% humidity, with the condensation dripping on them all day. and the
other greens (and carrots and beets) at least tolerate 100% humidity.

simy1,
two dozen? It's absolutely amazing how long some people stay alive.

There are two problems that I am trying to address:
Numero Uno, in the past any greens left in the garden have been hammered
into pulp by the rains.

Numero Two-o is that I've have had a couple of peppers over-winter. They
also get hammered by the rain but the stalk still has some green to it
and it re-generates when the weather warms up. The last few winters have
been mild and the severe lack direct sunlight in Dec.-Jan. seems to take
it's toll. I'd like to give them more of an edge than that.

Numero three-o (there are at least three problems that I would like to
address) is that the slugs and snails here are like pirana fish. You may
as well drop a cow in with the velocorapters. Bye-bye!

Again, if you think of some question I should have asked, please pass it
on.

Again, thanks for your time and your hard earned knowledge,
- Bill

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:35:23 -0500, wrote:

Something I find interesting in this respect. I live in Sussex, UK.
Locally during the 19th and early 20th Century a local family
developed a system of using greenhouses mounted on rails/. They then
were able to move each complete greenhouse over the plants as reqired.

Excellent.

That all depends on how busy of a greenhouse you wish to operate. Some of them accept absolutely controlled environments. For the a lot of part, aggravating to do what I anticipate you wish to do, you are traveling to accept to apprentice to do some canning, some drying, some dehydrating and just about acting like the proverbial accumulate and "gather up basics for the winter".