Billy expounded:

Unfortunately, most places do not permit or regulate the retail sale
of raw milk. In most of the United States and much of the rest of the
world, it is simply illegal to buy or sell raw milk. As more and more'
people learn about the benefits of raw milk and want to start drinking
it, a grassroots underground has emerged, linking consumers directly to
dairy farmers with small, pastured herds.

Thankfully, things have changed in a few places.
http://www.realmilk.com/where3.html
--
Ann
e-mail address is not checked

In article ,
Ann wrote:

Billy expounded:

Unfortunately, most places do not permit or regulate the retail sale
of raw milk. In most of the United States and much of the rest of the
world, it is simply illegal to buy or sell raw milk. As more and more'
people learn about the benefits of raw milk and want to start drinking
it, a grassroots underground has emerged, linking consumers directly to
dairy farmers with small, pastured herds.

Thankfully, things have changed in a few places.
http://www.realmilk.com/where3.html

Very informative post.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

On 2008-03-10, www.locoworks.com wrote:

My local coffee shop makes used grounds available for anyone to haul
away. If you spread it around the garden it greatly discourages cats
(they don't like the taste when they lick it off their paws). As a
beneficial side-effect, it kills snails and slugs and encourages
earthworms.

I'm tempted to try a gadget with a motion-sensor that triggers a
high-pitched sound (supposedly annoying to cats but inaudible to
humans).

Has anyone here tried one? Does it work?

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article , "Dioclese" NONE
wrote:


Traditionally, most gardeners don't put cow poop in a garden. The
reasoning
is the hay in their diet. They don't want to weed out the consequential
seeds in the hay spawning unwanted growth.

E-coli is spread to meat in butchering from the internal part of the
digestive tract of the animal. Sanitation is always important.
Segregation
of internal contents of the digestive tract from the meat is just as
important. Its more common with chickens. But, exists with cattle as
well.


Maybe some one can address "worming" in horses. I read once that the
medicines that kill worms in horses guts will also kill them in the
ground. The gist of the article was that if you are buying horse manure,
find out first if the horse(s) have been recently de-wormed.

I'd appreciate a response from any one who could talk authoritatively to
this subject.

In response to the second paragraph of Dioclese's response, this is why
there are laws that limit the fecal (FECAL) content in our food (How
much fecal content are you comfortable with?). At a poultry "processor",
75,000 to 90,000 birds are "processed" a night. At over 180 birds a
minute, some things get by the killing crew.

Animals have to die for us to eat meat, but they don't have to be
tortured first (factory farms). Living conditions have changed little in
the push to "organic" meat. The difference is in the fodder and the
withdrawal of antibiotics.

I recommend that you try to find a source of humanely raised meat, and
eat less of it.

Even though I am not the original poster,

I thank everyone for correcting my miss conceptions. I have saved all
links for further reading. Lots to read. This is an important topic to
me and I suspect to others. I do live next to a cattle farm that raises
black angus. Their stakes are good.

I am a software engineer who now finds life in the country is nicer.
Life is not simple anymore. The rules to healthy lifestyle seems to be
getting more complex each and every year and as I get older learning new
rules are getting harder each and every day.

Enjoy Life .... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

I thank everyone for correcting my miss conceptions. I have saved all
links for further reading. Lots to read. This is an important topic to
me and I suspect to others. I do live next to a cattle farm that raises
black angus. Their stakes are good.

I am a software engineer who now finds life in the country is nicer.
Life is not simple anymore. The rules to healthy lifestyle seems to be
getting more complex each and every year and as I get older learning new
rules are getting harder each and every day.

When you get a chance read "Omnivore's Dilemma" (an oft referred to book
in this newsgroup). Most people find it a real page turner. If you can
find grass fed beef it will be healthier for you. It will be more
expensive up front, but there are expected health benefit$ in the long
term.

It's not that the rules have changed, it's that it's hard to get early
1940s food out of a 21st Century store. Everything used to be organic.
Then the "green revolution" (use of chemical fertilizers and synthetic
pesticides, and now GMOs) taught farmers how to maximize their crops.

Usually as you get older, the **** and vinegar starts percolating to the
surface. Older people usually have less patience, because we don't have
that much time left to waste. Come on Dan, get crotchety.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:37:09 -0400, "Dan L."
wrote:


I thank everyone for correcting my miss conceptions. I have saved all
links for further reading. Lots to read. This is an important topic to
me and I suspect to others. I do live next to a cattle farm that raises
black angus. Their stakes are good.

I am a software engineer who now finds life in the country is nicer.
Life is not simple anymore. The rules to healthy lifestyle seems to be
getting more complex each and every year and as I get older learning new
rules are getting harder each and every day.

There *is* much to learn, but one thing I have found is that unlearning
things is more difficult. Even more difficult is determining *what*
one needs to unlearn.

Glad you enjoy where you now live. Don't worry, it will become more
simple as you gain knowledge and confidence.

As you receive information and opinions on this group, and elsewhere,
keep this old Chinese proverb in mind... "All gardeners know better
than other gardeners." ;-)

To add to you syllabus:
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-- Mark Twain

Lastly, "Beware of people who know what's best for you".
-- Me (until I get a different attribution)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

I thank everyone for correcting my miss conceptions. I have saved all
links for further reading. Lots to read. This is an important topic to
me and I suspect to others. I do live next to a cattle farm that raises
black angus. Their stakes are good.

I am a software engineer who now finds life in the country is nicer.
Life is not simple anymore. The rules to healthy lifestyle seems to be
getting more complex each and every year and as I get older learning new
rules are getting harder each and every day.

When you get a chance read "Omnivore's Dilemma" (an oft referred to book
in this newsgroup). Most people find it a real page turner. If you can
find grass fed beef it will be healthier for you. It will be more
expensive up front, but there are expected health benefit$ in the long
term.

It's not that the rules have changed, it's that it's hard to get early
1940s food out of a 21st Century store. Everything used to be organic.
Then the "green revolution" (use of chemical fertilizers and synthetic
pesticides, and now GMOs) taught farmers how to maximize their crops.

Usually as you get older, the **** and vinegar starts percolating to the
surface. Older people usually have less patience, because we don't have
that much time left to waste. Come on Dan, get crotchety.

Ok, I just ordered the books on Amazon, "Omnivore's Dilemma" and
"Animal, vegetable ..." two books that have been referred often here.
I am going to put away my "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" books
away for summer reading instead of spring.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

Ok, I just ordered the books on Amazon, "Omnivore's Dilemma" and
"Animal, vegetable ..." two books that have been referred often here.
I am going to put away my "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" books
away for summer reading instead of spring.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

Geez, Dan, where did you get "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle"? Barbara
Kingsolver is a good author but she is mostly a cheerleader. If you were
going to get a second book I would have suggested, "Teaming with
Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web" by Lowenfels , and
Lewis. Between the two, you are confronted with healthy food and healthy
soil.

I'm sure that "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" are good books but
they are more conceptual that sensual.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

Ok, I just ordered the books on Amazon, "Omnivore's Dilemma" and
"Animal, vegetable ..." two books that have been referred often here.
I am going to put away my "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" books
away for summer reading instead of spring.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

Geez, Dan, where did you get "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle"? Barbara
Kingsolver is a good author but she is mostly a cheerleader. If you were
going to get a second book I would have suggested, "Teaming with
Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web" by Lowenfels , and
Lewis. Between the two, you are confronted with healthy food and healthy
soil.

I'm sure that "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" are good books but
they are more conceptual that sensual.

I will put that Microbes book in my wish list also.

The second book just makes it over $25 for free shipping. Books are a
curse in my life. Its like drugs in other people. For the last 30 years
of my life I have spent an average of $1,000 per year on books, I have
a nice little library covering many topics. I would rather read a good
book than to travel all over the world. Tensor Calculus is conceptual,
"Rainbows End" by Vernor Vinge in my world is very sensual

I like gardening, it is a comfort. I have a strong interest in the
sciences, math and physics are strong points. Biology and chemistry are
great weakness that needs to be improved. I know, I need to get a life

Enjoy Life ... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

Ok, I just ordered the books on Amazon, "Omnivore's Dilemma" and
"Animal, vegetable ..." two books that have been referred often here.
I am going to put away my "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" books
away for summer reading instead of spring.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

Geez, Dan, where did you get "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle"? Barbara
Kingsolver is a good author but she is mostly a cheerleader. If you were
going to get a second book I would have suggested, "Teaming with
Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web" by Lowenfels , and
Lewis. Between the two, you are confronted with healthy food and healthy
soil.

I'm sure that "Tensor Calculus" and "Vernor Vinge" are good books but
they are more conceptual that sensual.

I will put that Microbes book in my wish list also.

The second book just makes it over $25 for free shipping. Books are a
curse in my life. Its like drugs in other people. For the last 30 years
of my life I have spent an average of $1,000 per year on books, I have
a nice little library covering many topics. I would rather read a good
book than to travel all over the world. Tensor Calculus is conceptual,
"Rainbows End" by Vernor Vinge in my world is very sensual

I like gardening, it is a comfort. I have a strong interest in the
sciences, math and physics are strong points. Biology and chemistry are
great weakness that needs to be improved. I know, I need to get a life

Enjoy Life ... Dan

Sometimes the discounts on second hand books is sufficient to more than
cover the shipping. Second hand books can be better than what you check
out at the library. When I can, I'll check the book out from the library
and read it. If I really like it, then I'll buy it. The one I'm reading
now, I wouldn't buy (Emerald City).

Again, "Omnivore" is really good at explaining the whys and "Microbes"
is good at explaining the hows. However, each plant has it's own little
quirks and it takes awhile to get a handle on it, so Google a lot.

Some things work for some people and not for other. Why, I haven't a
clue. But there is nothing like a fresh tomato wrapped in a basil leaf,
or fresh cilantro pesto, or the perfume of a just picked parsnip. We
don't just eat to survive but we eat for pleasure as well.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dioclese" NONE
wrote:


Traditionally, most gardeners don't put cow poop in a garden. The
reasoning
is the hay in their diet. They don't want to weed out the consequential
seeds in the hay spawning unwanted growth.

E-coli is spread to meat in butchering from the internal part of the
digestive tract of the animal. Sanitation is always important.
Segregation
of internal contents of the digestive tract from the meat is just as
important. Its more common with chickens. But, exists with cattle as
well.


Maybe some one can address "worming" in horses. I read once that the
medicines that kill worms in horses guts will also kill them in the
ground. The gist of the article was that if you are buying horse manure,
find out first if the horse(s) have been recently de-wormed.

I'd appreciate a response from any one who could talk authoritatively to
this subject.

In response to the second paragraph of Dioclese's response, this is why
there are laws that limit the fecal (FECAL) content in our food (How
much fecal content are you comfortable with?). At a poultry "processor",


Don't understand where you're going with the question, or why it was posed
to me.

75,000 to 90,000 birds are "processed" a night. At over 180 birds a
minute, some things get by the killing crew.

Animals have to die for us to eat meat, but they don't have to be
tortured first (factory farms). Living conditions have changed little in
the push to "organic" meat. The difference is in the fodder and the
withdrawal of antibiotics.

I recommend that you try to find a source of humanely raised meat, and
eat less of it.

Are you responding to the OP or myself in regards to the immediate above
sentence?
Am working on a movable chicken coop on skids, a 2 section chicken yard.
One section in fallow, the other holding the chickens, section rotated every
2 years. Yet another section for providing feed for the chickens, where
they can browse after harvest as well.

--
Dave

My vote in this primary was for the lesser
of many evils...

In article , "Dioclese" NONE
wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dioclese" NONE
wrote:


Traditionally, most gardeners don't put cow poop in a garden. The
reasoning
is the hay in their diet. They don't want to weed out the consequential
seeds in the hay spawning unwanted growth.

E-coli is spread to meat in butchering from the internal part of the
digestive tract of the animal. Sanitation is always important.
Segregation
of internal contents of the digestive tract from the meat is just as
important. Its more common with chickens. But, exists with cattle as
well.


Maybe some one can address "worming" in horses. I read once that the
medicines that kill worms in horses guts will also kill them in the
ground. The gist of the article was that if you are buying horse manure,
find out first if the horse(s) have been recently de-wormed.

I'd appreciate a response from any one who could talk authoritatively to
this subject.

In response to the second paragraph of Dioclese's response, this is why
there are laws that limit the fecal (FECAL) content in our food (How
much fecal content are you comfortable with?). At a poultry "processor",


Don't understand where you're going with the question, or why it was posed
to me.
What question? I didn't ask any question of you. Perhaps you weren't the
OP, wouldn't the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last time I
mis-con-screwed a post. You didn't write, "E-coli is spread to meat in
butchering from the internal part of the digestive tract of the
animal."? That is what I was responding to. If it wasn't you. You have
my apologizes. Although, I don't see anything reprehensible in my
response to apologize for.

75,000 to 90,000 birds are "processed" a night. At over 180 birds a
minute, some things get by the killing crew.

Animals have to die for us to eat meat, but they don't have to be
tortured first (factory farms). Living conditions have changed little in
the push to "organic" meat. The difference is in the fodder and the
withdrawal of antibiotics.

I recommend that you try to find a source of humanely raised meat, and
eat less of it.

Are you responding to the OP or myself in regards to the immediate above
sentence?
Am working on a movable chicken coop on skids, a 2 section chicken yard.
One section in fallow, the other holding the chickens, section rotated every
2 years. Yet another section for providing feed for the chickens, where
they can browse after harvest as well.

You may want to take a look at a site that Charlie, the big lunk head,
suggested awhile back http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/214 .
It may seem to start a little slow but it has a big finish.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

"Erik Johnson" wrote in message
...

Hi,

I'm pretty new to gardening and would like some advice. I having
trouble with a cat using my vegatable patch to do his buisness.

I would like to know if this may be harmful if I am growing vegitables
to eat.

Normally I pick them all up, but I went away on Holiday and returned to
find a phenominal amount in the garden. I started to pick it all up but
it started raining heavily. Now I have found it has all disappeared -
dissolved into the soil.

Before I get any advice on how to stop the Cat I have already tried:
Lion poo, tea bags soaked in Olbas oil, pepper, ultra sonic cat
scarers, making friends with the cat and feeding him, orange peel, CDs
stuck into the ground and making access difficult. My plan was now to
install an outside tap and fit a motion sensor with water gun.

If the motion sensor doesn't work it's time for a Have-A-Heart trap or a 22.

"Dan L." wrote in message
...
In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
Erik Johnson wrote:

Hi,

I'm pretty new to gardening and would like some advice. I having
trouble with a cat using my vegatable patch to do his buisness.

I would like to know if this may be harmful if I am growing vegitables
to eat.

Normally I pick them all up, but I went away on Holiday and returned to
find a phenominal amount in the garden. I started to pick it all up but
it started raining heavily. Now I have found it has all disappeared -
dissolved into the soil.

Before I get any advice on how to stop the Cat I have already tried:
Lion poo, tea bags soaked in Olbas oil, pepper, ultra sonic cat
scarers, making friends with the cat and feeding him, orange peel, CDs
stuck into the ground and making access difficult. My plan was now to
install an outside tap and fit a motion sensor with water gun.

I think you just found the answer. Just remember to turn it off, when
you go into the garden.

I am not an expert and could be wrong about this.

I do believe cat poo is harmful to humans. I think it goes like this. If
the animal is a carnivore (eats meat) and has a one chamber stomach, the
animal uses E-coli to break down the proteins - then yes it is bad for
vegetable gardening. The biblical sense - an unclean animal - humans
included

You can also get intestinal worms from cats.