In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government
to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a
veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian
flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

So do I (when I'm not feeling particularly negative), but I would be
surprised if we don't get another major pestilence of some sort.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change,
overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL
be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen
to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

At least 3 of those horsemen are already raging through the world in Iraq,
Africa and each winter as Flu carts off a huge number of people. I can't
quite see why the fourth wouldn't raise it's ugly head in due time too, but
I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't wish for it.

Atta girl.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:00:51 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:


"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government
to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a
veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian
flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change,
overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

David

I fear that is not possible, David. Speaking truth to power has, in my
experience, little effect, and history bears this out, as witnessed by
various prophets, seers, visionaries, and other illuminated and schmart
folks who were ignored by the rich and famous and powerful.

Doesn't have much to do wit schmart people. Sensible people in
industrial societies have fewer children. In the United States of you
know who, each kid costs about a half million $. That is incentive to
anyone who can use their brain.


It is alos interesting that John prophesied so long ago about a world
situation that is taking on an amazing resemblance to what he said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSw...eature=related

The challenge and the attempt are noble, and required, but I also fear
we are simply ****in' in the wind. Yet try we must, while maintaining
a watchful posture to sidestep what we are able.

I hope I am wrong, but like farml, I too despair of humanity most
times.
Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion
and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras?
Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin'
parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to
anything else).

Charlie
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

"Terryc" wrote in message
...
J. Clarke wrote:


How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or
Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really
understand the problem.

Who cares. Megatropoliss are not that great for the planet anyway and
there is really no modern reason for them.


How do we prevent them forming? How do take down the ones that are there?

David

Some are dense like NY. Others are burbs like LA.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:46:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:


"Terryc" wrote in message
...
J. Clarke wrote:


How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or
Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really
understand the problem.

Who cares. Megatropoliss are not that great for the planet anyway and
there is really no modern reason for them.


How do we prevent them forming? How do take down the ones that are there?

David

The irony of the situation is that so many of these cities are being
swelled by displaced farmers and those once dependant upon the land.

Charlie

Especially Mexico City.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

"len gardener" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
snipped
How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or
Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really
understand the problem.

--
maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the
problem"??


Len I agree with your sentiments that we need to change our way of thinking
but it will take more than that.

once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then you
take away any thinking outside the square.

all tall buildings have rooves?

there are balconies?

Very harsh environments for growing, with much effort you could get some
boutique crops but not enough to really matter. It would be very inefficient.
Are you not listening? This is how Cubans get fed. If you don't want to
eat, continue on with your ignorance.


most cities have large parklands?


Yes but the people need them. Sure strolling through a nice vege garden is
relaxing but what of those who want to play sport etc?
They won't feel like playing sports if they are hungry. Let's think
priorities. No one said no sports fields. We're just saying first things
first. Unlike:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006..._shut_down.php

After weeks of tension, waiting, and nightly vigils, supporters of
downtown South Central Farm in Los Angeles were awakened before dawn
yesterday by sheriff¹s deputies forcing entry into the property. (See
our prevous coverage here and here). Advocates of the farm, working with
The Annenberg Foundation and the Trust for Public Land, were able to
meet the $16 million asking price, albeit after the set deadline.
Although the asking price was eventually met, landowner Ralph Horowitz
rejected the offer and initiated the eviction. Supporters, both those
camping inside and those in the surrounding streets, staged civil
disobedience protests resulting in almost 50 arrests. Deputies in a 100
ft. fire department ladder truck cut away branches to remove and arrest
Daryl Hannah and veteran tree-sitter John Quigley from the walnut tree
they had been sitting in.

More than 250 LAPD and Sheriff¹s Dept. officers flooded the surrounding
area outfitted in riot gear and crowd-control weapons. Most arrestees
spent less than six hours in jail and received minimal punishment. After
supporters were removed from the farm by the sheriff¹s dept., Bobcat
bulldozers, hired by Horowitz, proceeded to thrash and uproot plants and
trees while flattening fences and the minimal infrastructure of the
farm, a symbolic gesture of victory by the vilified Brentwood developer.
LA Mayor Antonia Villaraigosa said he regretted the outcome and that he
had made multiple appeals to the developer to accept the farmers¹ offer
to buy. Advocates of the farm criticize the mayor and local Councilwoman
Jan Perry for not doing more to sway the outcome.

Daryl Hannah has become a recognized figurehead for the struggle to save
the farm from development, and helped propel this most recent showdown
into international view. By the time she was arrested yesterday she had
spent more than three uninterrupted weeks encamped at the farm without
returning to her Malibu home‹taking cold showers in the cornfields, and
being the subject of daily media attention, as well as posting on her
own vlog. ³I'm very confident this is the morally right thing to do, to
take a principled stand in solidarity with the farmers,² she told the AP
by cell phone before being removed from the tree yesterday. Hannah
regrouped with supporters in the evening after her release for a press
conference and an evening vigil near the now locked gates of the farm.
Hannah will appear on Larry King Live tonight to discuss the issue.

and New York Community Gardens
http://www.earthcelebrations.com/gardens/10bc_1.html

It almost makes you think that some people are born with "stupid genes".


melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by
occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments.


Melbourne is quite low density compared to the mega cities. The Aussie 1/4
acre block is very uncommon in many places. We have no experience of what
really high density housing is like.

and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market
farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the
city proper where all could access it by various public transport, now
the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to
get there.


And those market gardens have been swallowed up by housing developments that
can hardly be torn down now. The population is 3 times what it was then. The
institutions and organisation of 60 years ago will not serve for the next 60.

Same in California, good agricultural land used for housing tracts. Just
totally mindless.
and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city.

and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become
very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop
the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent
enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in their
shoes at any time.

in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit for
up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times?

i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it is
way too late maybe?

outside the square and the comfort zone.
With peace and brightest of blessings,


I support your philosophy that major change in how we deal with the world is
essential. And backyard and inner city growing plots would certainly be a
step in the right direction. But this will never be more than a minor part of
the calories required to feed a big city.

You are just blowing this out you burro. Read about the Cuban solution
before you make such stupid comments.
Look at the people who are doing this on a small scale (ie one or a few
families). They need acres to do it. Evan if yields could be increased many
times (doubtful, especially in Oz)
Oz has the oldest and most depleted soils on the planet but it still
seems with crop rotation and green manure, the situation could be turned
around.
those acres just aren't available in or
near big cities, nor are the numbers of skilled people prepared to lovingly
tend them.
Some American you are. The American answer is supposed to be, why not?
Local can be 100 miles, an hour and a half to two hour drive. If you can
eat a plant within hours of its' harvest, you're not doing too bad.

It is this very problem of the efficiency of scale that made me ask the
question in the first place.
I guess the question is what do you consider EFFICIENT? You won't mind
if the rest of us eat while you explain.

David
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

len gardener wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
snipped
How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or
Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really
understand the problem.

--
maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the
problem"??

once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then you
take away any thinking outside the square.

all tall buildings have rooves?

there are balconies?

most cities have large parklands?

melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by
occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments.

and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market
farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the
city proper where all could access it by various public transport,
now
the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to
get there.

and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city.

and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become
very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop
the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent
enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in
their
shoes at any time.

in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit
for
up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times?

i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it
is
way too late maybe?

Demonstrate that you can feed half the population of Australia on 150
square miles of land.

There is no "my scenario". We feed the populations of those cities
now. The methods used may offend your sensibilities but they work.
You are the one proposing pie in the sky without running the numbers
and showing that they can work.


--
No one ever said that you would make money with the "Cuban Solution".
you'd just get fed. If you want capitalism, you'll need to go elsewhere.

Roberto Perez, Cuban permaculturalist, recently visited NZ and Aus. He
recounted an event from the Cuban 'special period' of a neighbourhood going
to work with picks and axes on a car park in order to create a rudimentary
garden. The concrete was split and pulled up and rough gardens created. The
neighbourhood had precious few skills of farming, that came later. They
found a piece of idle land and set about growing on it. That was extreme
however, those people faced hunger or grow their own food. I guess hunger
gives you some motivation eh. If the ground is used for something now, not
to mean in a period of food shortage it won't quickly be converted. I have 5
raised beds in my 1/4 acre back yard, a small polytunnel & a good area of
grass. My front lawn is in lawn as well. The neighbours on one side have a
landscaped garden with rockeries. neighbours on the optherside have a
cobbled back yard. If we had a food shortage I guess the rockeries & cobbled
back yard would be secondary to growing some veges or having chickens.

rob

George.com wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

len gardener wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
snipped
How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City
or
Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't
really understand the problem.

--
maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the
problem"??

once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then
you
take away any thinking outside the square.

all tall buildings have rooves?

there are balconies?

most cities have large parklands?

melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared
by
occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments.

and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market
farmers had left they took into the general market situated in
the
city proper where all could access it by various public
transport,
now
the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt
to
get there.

and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city.

and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to
become very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can
happen to stop the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you
may be affluent enough right now? but very many aren't and
everyone could be in their
shoes at any time.

in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit
for
up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times?

i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when
it
is
way too late maybe?

Demonstrate that you can feed half the population of Australia on
150 square miles of land.

There is no "my scenario". We feed the populations of those
cities
now. The methods used may offend your sensibilities but they
work.
You are the one proposing pie in the sky without running the
numbers
and showing that they can work.


--
No one ever said that you would make money with the "Cuban
Solution".
you'd just get fed. If you want capitalism, you'll need to go
elsewhere.

Billy's post seems to have gotten lost in the ether, or maybe it's
just taking forever to propagate, so I'm responding here.

Who said anything about "make money"? You can get x amount of food
off of y amount of land. You can feed z number of people with x
amount of food. If y amount of land doesn't produce enough food for z
number of people then any solution proposing to feed them off of that
amount of land will not work.

In most large cities (New York, Los Angeles, Bombay, etc) there is
less than 500 square feet of land for each resident. After deducting
for things like streets and sidewalks and considering that much of
that space gets limited sunlight, can you grow enough safe, edible,
uncontaminated food on what's left to feed the populace?

Note that something that works in Cuba, where the population density
in Havana is such that there is almost 5000 square feet of land for
every resident, is not necessarily going to work where the population
density is more than ten times as high.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

George.com wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

len gardener wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
snipped
How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City
or
Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't
really understand the problem.

--
maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the
problem"??

once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then
you
take away any thinking outside the square.

all tall buildings have rooves?

there are balconies?

most cities have large parklands?

melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared
by
occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments.

and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market
farmers had left they took into the general market situated in
the
city proper where all could access it by various public
transport,
now
the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt
to
get there.

and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city.

and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to
become very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can
happen to stop the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you
may be affluent enough right now? but very many aren't and
everyone could be in their
shoes at any time.

in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit
for
up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times?

i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when
it
is
way too late maybe?

Demonstrate that you can feed half the population of Australia on
150 square miles of land.

There is no "my scenario". We feed the populations of those
cities
now. The methods used may offend your sensibilities but they
work.
You are the one proposing pie in the sky without running the
numbers
and showing that they can work.


--
No one ever said that you would make money with the "Cuban
Solution".
you'd just get fed. If you want capitalism, you'll need to go
elsewhere.

Billy's post seems to have gotten lost in the ether, or maybe it's
just taking forever to propagate, so I'm responding here.
Do you ever get into a conversation where you feel like there a two
conversations going on? I'm having that feeling right now.

Who said anything about "make money"?
You did in your exchange with Len in which you accepted his evaluation
of p/c and then, seemingly, blew it off.

Len - " permaculture is more a mind set of ideas to look after the planet
better, once commercialism comes into it then profit will
over ride.

David - "I agree about the mindset. But we are embedded in a largely
free enterprise society in which you have to be
commercially viable to keep going.

If we get food riots, there may be some social readjustments.

You can get x amount of food
off of y amount of land. You can feed z number of people with x
amount of food. If y amount of land doesn't produce enough food for z
number of people then any solution proposing to feed them off of that
amount of land will not work.

In most large cities (New York, Los Angeles, Bombay, etc) there is
less than 500 square feet of land for each resident. After deducting
for things like streets and sidewalks and considering that much of
that space gets limited sunlight, can you grow enough safe, edible,
uncontaminated food on what's left to feed the populace?
My guess is that form would follow function. No I don't think that New
York City can grow, on its' own, sufficient produce for it's population
(Although, cockroaches have more protein, pound for pound than beef,
maybe urban ranching?). It is the sum of the efforts. Kansas grows more
corn than it can use. Montana grows more wheat than it can use. Ideally,
permaculture would address these conflicts. Monocultures are bad for
flora, fauna, and the soil but economy of scale argues for extensive
agricultural areas. Joel Salatin has done this for meat production. Now
it needs to be extended into produce and grain production. The model
would be urban produce grown wherever it can find a niche (house plants,
balconies, patios, rooftops, community gardens
[http://www.earthcelebrations.com/gardens/9bc.html]). Surrounding the
cities would be a belt of truck farms and beyond the truck farms the
large agricultural tracts of land*. The ideal is permaculture but as I
said, form will follow function. The function is to get everyone fed,
fed well, and renewing the land. The social frame work of the feeding is
less important.

*Work is being done on converting annual crops to perennial crops.
Multiple crops could be grown in the same area e.g. grasses, ground
cover, and root crops could coexist. The agricultural lands may even
take on the aspect of parks.

Note that something that works in Cuba, where the population density
in Havana is such that there is almost 5000 square feet of land for
every resident, is not necessarily going to work where the population
density is more than ten times as high.

--
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:10:24 -0700, Billy wrote:


Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion
and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras?

Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again.
What? Not even a smiley face? You are in a mood;-)
However, you are right, as usual. Millions of people around the world
demonstrated against Gov. Shrub's (only office he was ever elected to)
vanity war and they were ignored. Demonstrations never brought the boys
back from Vietnam either. And we have seen that revolutions seem to get
hijacked by hinderbinders that have their own agenda.

Oh, remember that ****ing in the wind, especially on lemon trees, is OK.
It's ****ing into the wind that creates problems;-) (learned this from
Omelet, the smiley faces, not the ****ing, and I can't seem to stop:-)

Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin'
parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to
anything else).

You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and
narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses.

Twas ever thus.

Charlie
Fortunately, those who follow us will have their own hopes and dreams.
Five thousand years ago, the Egyptians said that the world was going to
ruin in a hand basket and here we are, still going. The rich keep trying
to get richer. If we had a revolution, the new leaders would socialize
the wealth and make themselves chairmen of the board.

But seriously, something has to be done about feeding and housing the
people living one $ 1- $2 a day (1/3 of the planet's pop.) before they
come to our doors and take it.

Hoping the daylight puts you into a better mood;-) dang!
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

whatever john?

for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to
raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?) intelligent
human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed in
our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to
implement.

but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place.



On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:03:35 -0400, "J. Clarke" snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

len gardener wrote:
whatever john?

for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to
raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?)
intelligent
human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed
in
our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to
implement.

but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place.

So you don't have a proposal, you just want to "raise the wareness"?
Why not instead work toward finding a solution that will work and then
proving that it will work? But no, you'd rather just "raise the
wareness" because that doesn't actually require any _effort_ on your
part.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:43:52 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:10:24 -0700, Billy wrote:


Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion
and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras?

Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again.
What? Not even a smiley face? You are in a mood;-)
However, you are right, as usual. Millions of people around the world
demonstrated against Gov. Shrub's (only office he was ever elected to)
vanity war and they were ignored. Demonstrations never brought the boys
back from Vietnam either. And we have seen that revolutions seem to get
hijacked by hinderbinders that have their own agenda.

Heh. Sorry friend. I figgered giving you a nip was safer, and would
be tolerated better than nipping someone else, like my Lovey fer
instance. ;-)

Yeah, bit of a downcycle today. You know the routine. I have found
that contained within the major fluctuations there are some minor ones
as well. Kinda sucks sometimes. Been feeling the need for a couple
days, but have resisted, as at this time I am well aware of where this
would lead. What I need is to be able to go wallow in the soil and get
the back of me neck redded and wear myself out physically. Days on end
of cloudy rainy weather, this time of year, are not good for me. And
they are calling for three more with snow on two of them. But I'll be
alright, just gotta wait it out sometimes.


Oh, remember that ****ing in the wind, especially on lemon trees, is OK.
It's ****ing into the wind that creates problems;-) (learned this from
Omelet, the smiley faces, not the ****ing, and I can't seem to stop:-)

Heh heh, gotta remember which way to face when fertilizing. :-)

Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin'
parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to
anything else).

You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and
narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses.

Twas ever thus.

Charlie
Fortunately, those who follow us will have their own hopes and dreams.
Five thousand years ago, the Egyptians said that the world was going to
ruin in a hand basket and here we are, still going. The rich keep trying
to get richer. If we had a revolution, the new leaders would socialize
the wealth and make themselves chairmen of the board.

But you must keep in mind, the Egyptian world did go, as the world only
extended to the limits of their knowledge. So it was for other
societys. Unfortunately we have finally become viral and spread
worldwide, so it only stands to reason, since the house of cards is now
a global house of cards, for all intents and purposes of economics and
dependencies, that a collapse will be of epic proportions. Collapses
of yesteryear were of epic proportion to those who collapsed.

And it is intersesting that much of the turmoil, given our global
dependency upon oil, is centered in one of large oil producing areas of
the world,which by coincidence is also home to several of the worlds
warring religions, and which coincidentlay id rumored to be the cradle
of civilization.

But, having said this, I realize that for the most part, our knowledge,
though worldwide and extending a very tiny way into space, is limited
and we make our prophesies and predictions based upon this limited
knowledge. All comes down to we really don't know shit from shinola.

The prophets of old may have been inspired (I do believe that some of
us have seen with other eyes and things didn't appear the same ever
after), but it is now not hard to see and project into the future the
results of our actions. Destruction of resources and warring and food
insufficiency on regional scales have simply gone global and a
contraction is coming. Logistics bears this out.

But, as you say, perhaps the generations that make it, will have dreams
that don't involve control and such and make a better go of it. SO, I
quess our task is to try and ensure that some knowledge and some of the
good ideals and dreams get passed on to the next generations. I'm
doing my damndest to see to this.

As far as predictions of the end and God destroying us, God needn't
lift a finger to end this. We are doing quite well ourselves and I am
confident we shall succeed in our endeavour. We have freewill to do as
we choose.


But seriously, something has to be done about feeding and housing the
people living one $ 1- $2 a day (1/3 of the planet's pop.) before they
come to our doors and take it.

See above.


Hoping the daylight puts you into a better mood;-) dang!

Actually, a little sunshine has helped considerably, though I'm still
feelin' a little frosty. Maybe catch ya' later, maybe not til the
morning, but I'm quite sure though that many of the good folk round
these here parts are hopin' for much later. ;-)

Charlie

I'm tellin' ya Charlie, it's no use coddling 'em. They're just gonna
have ta grow up. If gardeners can't be civil, I guess there isn't any
hope for anyone:-(

Sorry to hear about the rain and snow. To top it all off, there was a
report that La Nina might foreshadow a drought. Interesting times indeed.

Well, I got my flour. Twenty-five pounds of it @ $2.29/5 lb. I may end
up looking like a fool but I'll eat the flour eventually. It's just
basic unbleached white flour. I'd like to have gotten whole wheat flour
but I'm afraid the germ would make it go rancid. Now to get some
hermetically sealed containers and some of that dry ice you was talking
about. Hell. I may have a cylinder of CO2 out in the garage. I'd better
check. Later.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

len gardener wrote:
whatever john?

for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to
raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?)
intelligent
human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed
in
our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to
implement.

but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place.

So you don't have a proposal, you just want to "raise the wareness"?
Why not instead work toward finding a solution that will work and then
proving that it will work? But no, you'd rather just "raise the
wareness" because that doesn't actually require any _effort_ on your
part.


--

The main thing to being a good conversationalist, is being a good
listener. No one is offering a 5 year plan but we know what the results
should look like. There are many roads up the mountain. What we are
doing now hasn't worked, isn't working, and won't work in the future.
Mining the top soil is a horribly bad idea.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

We recently popped open a bucket of cornmeal on it's tenth anniversary
of entering into storage. Smelled and tasted just fine. Been stored
at a constant 50-60 F.

As far as the CO2 tank, I would think you would need a *very* slooow
release so as to percolate thru the density. Feed your CO2 or nitrogen
or dry ice from the bottom, as you no doubt realize. And fer cryin'
out loud, don't do it in a small space. Ventilation. And if you use
dry ice, I used a chunk about the size of a small fist, busted up, on
the bottom, dumped in the goodies and set the lid on loosely and give
it overnight to do it's thing, and then hammer home the lid without
having disturbed the container. If you want double insurance, toss in
O2 absorbers right before sealing.

I also tossed in the bottom of each container a goodly sized packet of
silica gel fer the heck of it.

Have any questions, ask. I've been thru this thoroughly.

Charlie
What kind of containers do you use? I'm thinking those snap top
containers with the rubber gaskets like the Grolsch beer bottles, 'cept
wider.

Nitrogen is a waste of money. It is (effectively) the same density as
air (which is 70% nitrogen) and just stirs things up. CO2 and argon are
heavier than air and will displace it. Still, it is best to do a long
slow overkill with it.

Where do you get O2 absorbers?

Got the first of the plastic sheets onto the pepper garden today. Our
days have been nice, cool breezy afternoons, nearly freezing at night.
The mosquitos are back:-(
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

"len gardener" wrote in message
...
g'day david,

as humasn we need to get aways from the broadacre export farmer
mentality, the cost to habitat destruction is huge, and it also
impacts on our weather ie.,. reducing our chances of rain in the
droughts that are part of earths cycle. the b/a farmers here decimate
vast aeas of habitat on somewaht merginal ground, and after around 7
+- years they simply move on and leave the newly created desert behind
there is no requirement as there is with mining to rehabilitate the
area as they further encroach.

our farmers need to be in our communities where on small holdings
maybe up to 40 acres +- they produce in season staples for those
communities and supplied from farmer to consumer no middle man, the
farmer then gets to share the common wealth of his community, instead
of the way they now do it through a series of middle men who onsell
not so fresh food at prices people can barely afford and not
representative of what the farmers meager offering was.

like that adelaide hills thing that land should basically be returned
to habitat is has always been very marginal land (why do people think
the farmers walked away from it after they ahd milked it for waht they
could?), anyone living there should alocate enough land use for their
own personnal food needs, as any commercial venture sooner or later is
driven by the need for more and more turn over.

people can grow enough of the non staples their family needs in a very
small space, we had this type of system back in the late 40's and into
the 50's+, fresh in season food was affordable for all families, and
the food miles was very low so another positive factor, the farmer
casme around a couple or so times a week selling fresh produce, or we
went to the farm. eggs were right there as fresh as the day from the
farm, and fresh unadulterated milk was delivered intoi 1 gallon
stainless billy at our front door not sure may have been each second
day?? homes should be modest enough and land sufficient enough for
families to grow some of their own.

so to me the permaculture sustainable farmer is the one who is moving
closer to his consumers, not lauding themselves growing stuff on
denuded dry habitat land.

mollison uses those asian communities in asia where the farmer is a
neighbour and produces all the staples for that neighbourhood, makes a
lot of sense and no good putting it in the too hard basket because if
the oil crisis is as bad as what is indicated then our broadacre
farmers are going to have huge problems getting their produce to
market at an affordable profit making price.

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:15:17 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

Len I seem to have missed this post somehow and gone on to reply to you
further down the thread - maybe I have a propagation problem, I swear I
couldn't see this yesterday.

Anyway I find much good sense in what you say here. I recall fondly the
market gardens embedded in or close to the city and it does make sense in a
world where transport costs are set to rise hugely. But how to stop or even
reverse the trend of turning such areas into housing?

David