"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very
impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of
languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses
and start doing something.

Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only
sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet.

well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts, so what can one do? in the
meantime, i love the way they are going through like a dose of salts. we
NEEDED it!

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

but i can forgive a bad tie in someone who i sincerely believe is all set to
do the right things, not awful things like ahem did.

You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.

The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see
through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet
convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she
certainly has baggage.

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither of
them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g

:-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they
aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an
exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look
beyond his borders.

charlie is noice. :-)

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their way)
individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many ways. that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling. i think some
chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests when
it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken personally.

It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us
having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up
with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone
trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that
being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady
mix.

I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are
and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at
what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to
our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and
because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we
travel a lot.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.
kylie

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very
impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of
languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses
and start doing something.

Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably
only sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet.

well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)

Sweet Fester Arbuckle, but they really have to do something PDQ when they do
sit again because it's now stretching out a bit too long.

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts,

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then at
least someone in the Government.

so what can one do? in the
meantime, i love the way they are going through like a dose of salts. we
NEEDED it!

No doubt about that. A major purging.

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

but i can forgive a bad tie in someone who i sincerely believe is all set
to do the right things, not awful things like ahem did.

You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are
concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet.

The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see
through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet
convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she
certainly has baggage.

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither
of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb decisions
are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond their
borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily (choke)
send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is that although
he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very careful about his
commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn numbers, not that we could
send too many anyway given our other international commitments.


*If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us
again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show?

i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever
loved in the first instance g

:-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they
aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an
exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look
beyond his borders.

charlie is noice. :-)

Shhhhh. Don't let him hear you say that or he'll get a swelled head!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many
ways.

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the line
about 'queue jumping'.

that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling.

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))

i think some
chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests
when it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken
personally.

It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us
having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up
with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone
trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that
being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady
mix.

I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are
and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at
what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works
to our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and
because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we
travel a lot.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got my
Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)

Sweet Fester Arbuckle, but they really have to do something PDQ when they
do sit again because it's now stretching out a bit too long.

hm, i tend to think that they are, somewhat. i don't know. everything
happens at a glacial pace anyway! i'm not sure how quickly things CAN
happen, never mind "should".

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts,

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then
at least someone in the Government.

but is there not a common sitting length over the year? & it's not 52 weeks,
we all know that!! they just don't sit that much - they're often just not
there, because (i assume) it's not practical to do so anyway. i don't know
the ins & outs of it, but i'd be frankly concerned if some new govt decided
to sit 40 weeks a year. while they're sitting, they're not thinking of what
they need to do & talking to people about it, they're debating (& whatnot)
stuff which has been decided while they _weren't_ sitting.

that's what i meant.

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

well she does, but she's not the prime minister so i'm not about to start
criticising her. :-)

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither
of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's the
truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER. however, since none of us can
do anything about it, it's a mystery to me that anyone need pay attention
until it happens. truly, they WILL let us know once there's been an
election, i'm sure :-) no amount of fussing about it now is going to change
anything, even though such a person will always do their overweening best to
make it the problem of the rest of the world, kwim? bush is a problem for
all 6 billion people on earth, & nobody wants that to happen again. but
since the next one will be another american, s/he is still going to be our
problem (just hopefully a much lesser problem). :-)

As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb
decisions are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond
their borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily
(choke) send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is that
although he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very careful
about his commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn numbers, not
that we could send too many anyway given our other international
commitments.

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how his
incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon
himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean,
tricky, and cunning. nobody ever said he was stupid - he's not. but that
doesn't mean he was not the sole instrument of his own downfall - he was.
the creepy little control freak. you get that when you're one-eyed.

charlie is noice. :-)

Shhhhh. Don't let him hear you say that or he'll get a swelled head!

he may not be able to fit his gardening hat on!!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many
ways.

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the line
about 'queue jumping'.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up. that doesn't make them unlikeable, unkind or
unworthy - it's just something you need to keep in mind. i don't know that
there's any place left for people who just aren't smart or who are
unprepared to think. they're being left behind. tbh i'm not sure what (if
anything) could or should be done about it.

in the olden days, most people were chattel, peasants or serfs. these days,
they have the same rights as the ruling class & expect that things are
equal, but things aren't equal & won't ever be, because people aren't equal.
an un-thought-out opinion is not equal to a well-thought-out opinion, is it?
but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect them.
thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-) it kind
of works, doesn't it?

that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling.

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves, &
stuff like that.
i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got my
Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()

ow!

but see, i'm a pretty smart person (mostly ;-) yet i find it inconceivable
that things like typhoid still exist!! it's hard for us to move outside our
own brain & own experience, isn't it?
kylie

Charlie wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:25:19 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:


charlie is noice. :-)

Well now, that was a noice thing to say! ;-) Thank you......wait a
minute....unless this is some aussie slang thing that has a different
meaning than I took! ;-)

well, not really!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way)
individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many ways.
that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling. i think some
chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests
when
it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken personally.

Herd mentality is bad, bad I'm tellin' ya! It leads to stampede and
the *******s could sweep us all over the cliff, though this may not be
an entirely bad thing, given the condition of the planet and our
contribution to the.....situations. I am thinking that the herd is
starting to awake here...the "news" is reflecting this today, and the
bleating has started....."gov't must helppp, gov't must helpppp".

**** me, bush is again pushing to open the anwr to drilling. The only
solution to the oil situation is to retool our society and QUIT DRIVING
SO DAMN MUCH!

I fear it going to get ugly. It is for sure going to
become...different.

probably. but really, i think that's not a bad thing (overall!). the
disaster that forces one's hand to better things isn't really so bad. you
have to take the broad view. everyone has to suffer sometimes, it's
inevitable.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.
kylie


I think you have that right and should count your blessing....I've got
300 million members of the herd to worry about!

i'd be worried too if i were you g
kylie

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of
getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of
that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts,

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then
at least someone in the Government.

but is there not a common sitting length over the year?

No. It used to be 21 or 22 weeks of the year (can't remember which) but
under Howard, they reduced it to 18 weeks because they could guillotine
discussion and ram legislation through. Large majorities make it easy for a
Government to get its own way.

& it's not 52 weeks,
we all know that!! they just don't sit that much - they're often just not
there, because (i assume) it's not practical to do so anyway. i don't know
the ins & outs of it, but i'd be frankly concerned if some new govt
decided to sit 40 weeks a year. while they're sitting, they're not
thinking of what they need to do & talking to people about it, they're
debating (& whatnot) stuff which has been decided while they _weren't_
sitting.

The trouble is that when the poor *******s aren't in the House, they're in
their electorates dealing with all sorts of drongos. Sure, they get the
genuine cases that need help, but they also seem to get an enormous amount
of the knuckle draggers just taking up time and resources because they
haven't a clue who to turn to for 'help' (or to whinge to). They spend
thier life being exhausted from what I've seen of them.

It's job that no-one should seek to do IMHO.

that's what i meant.

Fair nuff.

also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his
ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul.
something should be done..!

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

well she does, but she's not the prime minister so i'm not about to start
criticising her. :-)

And really, if he can do the job (still waiting to see) who cares what his
ties look like?

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither
of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure that he doesn't still have a lot of supporters. I'd
like to think not but.....

however, since none of us can
do anything about it, it's a mystery to me that anyone need pay attention
until it happens. truly, they WILL let us know once there's been an
election, i'm sure :-) no amount of fussing about it now is going to
change anything, even though such a person will always do their
overweening best to make it the problem of the rest of the world, kwim?
bush is a problem for all 6 billion people on earth, & nobody wants that
to happen again. but since the next one will be another american, s/he is
still going to be our problem (just hopefully a much lesser problem). :-)

Well hopefully whoever it is will have a better grasp on Foreign policy and
Trade than the current Administration appears to have.

As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb
decisions are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond
their borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily
(choke) send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is
that although he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very
careful about his commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn
numbers, not that we could send too many anyway given our other
international commitments.

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how
his incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon
himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean,
tricky, and cunning. nobody ever said he was stupid - he's not. but that
doesn't mean he was not the sole instrument of his own downfall - he was.
the creepy little control freak. you get that when you're one-eyed.

LOL. Gotta hand it to you Otter, you do have a way with words!

having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their
way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many
ways.

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the
line about 'queue jumping'.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Can't or don't want to. I can cope with those who can't, it's the one's who
don't want to who give me the irrits.

that doesn't make them unlikeable, unkind or
unworthy - it's just something you need to keep in mind. i don't know that
there's any place left for people who just aren't smart or who are
unprepared to think. they're being left behind. tbh i'm not sure what (if
anything) could or should be done about it.

in the olden days, most people were chattel, peasants or serfs. these
days, they have the same rights as the ruling class & expect that things
are equal, but things aren't equal & won't ever be, because people aren't
equal. an un-thought-out opinion is not equal to a well-thought-out
opinion, is it?

Sadly it is. The coverage of the un-thought-out idiocy opinions that aren't
really news, but noise, is all too frequent. These days, it's like the
Enlightenment never, ever happened.

but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect
them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-)
it kind of works, doesn't it?

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment it
into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it
up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about
illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people were
genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue
jumpers".

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.


that
seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most
chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling.

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves, &
stuff like that.

No, they didn't execute people, but I'm not convinced that they wouldn't
have tried it if they thought they could get away with it given the tricks
they used right across the board. I should lend you a book called
"Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the Public
Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I know
they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you
name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary.

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got
my Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()

ow!

but see, i'm a pretty smart person (mostly ;-) yet i find it inconceivable
that things like typhoid still exist!! it's hard for us to move outside
our own brain & own experience, isn't it?

:-)) Take up genealogy/family history and you start to read about illnesses
that are still out there in other parts of the world and in places we think
of as first world countries. TB being just one of those diseases. Just for
info, we chose not to be vaccinated for Japanese encephalitis and won't be
taking the malaria treatment. If I suddenly stop posting, some tropical
nasty got me (either that or my ISP is giving me probs as it has more than
once).

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

To my mind, the entire electoral system there seems hell-bent on making sure
everyone is so sick to death of the whole thing that they don't vote.

Well hopefully whoever it is will have a better grasp on Foreign policy and
Trade than the current Administration appears to have.

Um, Hillary said that if Iran bombs the crap out of Israel, that the USA will
bomb the crap out of them. That's sophistication for you.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, & that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.
Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem. Bush is just the sock puppet
of the tidy rich in this country (World actually, what with
"globalization") who don't want to dirty their hands, so they buy
politicians (we call $$$ free speech) to pass their self serving laws
(bankruptcy laws were tightened 2 years ago, to make it harder to file,
coincidence?) and their press gives us infortainment which is short of
information but guaranteed to titillate (and act as if the past never
happened). And after irritating everyone (by sending jobs over seas,
diverting colossal amounts of money (which is sorely needed for social
programs: roads, schools, health care) to the military industrial
complex, sending pre-approved credit cards by mail to everyone,
exhorting us to buy houses, and diverting food crops into bio-fuels)
they point at the 12,000,000 illegal immigrants (who we can't do without
because they subsidize our dwindling life style) and say, "It's their
fault". No, Bush is just the hired help.
And now we get to choose from the lesser of three evils (eternal war, 5
more years of war with unwavering commitment to the ethnic cleansing of
Palestine, or health care that only an insurance agent could love (when
most doctors and citizens want single payer).
If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

(See first URL in signature to understand "Who Owns America". The second
URL is of our most supported ally and a template for America's futu-(


Hmmm. I'm not so sure that he doesn't still have a lot of supporters. I'd
like to think not but.....

(snip, chop, whack)

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how
his incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon
himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean,
tricky, and cunning.

(snippety, snippety, snip)


Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa.
The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the
line about 'queue jumping'.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.
Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

(snip)

but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect
them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-)
it kind of works, doesn't it?

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment it
into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it
up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about
illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people were
genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue
jumpers".

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBB0s...eature=related

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

a book called
"Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the Public
Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I know
they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you
name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

Editorial Reviews
Product Description
A frightening analysis of the tactics used by the Howard government to
silence independent experts and commentators as well as public servants
and organisations which criticise its policies.
http://www.amazon.com/Silencing-Diss...nt-controlling
/dp/1741751012/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209750564&sr=1-2
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBB0s...eature=related

"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could
possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, &
that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so
i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the
Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world
wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem.

Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in
his position should be.

If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the
past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in
this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in
the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a
weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your chance
next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your choices.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch
of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try to
use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate those
within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of any
degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many times
does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the
current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the
patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts to
think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and
believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?

It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know that
he's being manipualted.

With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept
unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big
place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks
away (or should be).

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a few
times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is
impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly there
don't seem to be enough of such people around.

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could
possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, &
that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so
i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the
Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world
wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem.

Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in
his position should be.
Is it just me? I'm feeling a whole lot of 'tude here. Are you reacting t
what I said or what you think I said? If this is to be a conversation,
then let's keep it in response to what is written.

Bush is guilty but he isn't the puppeteer who orchestrates the show. He
is a political hack representing his moneyed backers over the interests
of the electorate.

If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the
past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in
this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in
the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a
weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your chance
next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your choices.
You ain't the only one sister.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch
of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try to
use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate those
within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of any
degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many times
does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the
current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the
patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts to
think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and
believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?

It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know that
he's being manipualted.

With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept
unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big
place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks
away (or should be).
I don't know how Ruppert Murdock plays in Australia, but he is the most
egregious example of media incompetence in America, but still, only the
most egregious. Studies have shown that views of Fox News are worse
informed than people who don't watch anything. Viewers of Fox News are
still likely to think that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. The rest of the
media here is similar. The hysteria from the "corporate press" and the
"reputable" N.Y. Times, and Judith Miller, helped convince the country
that intervention was necessary. They were aided and abetted by
Gen.Colin Powell, who most of us thought was a good guy.

Nearly all of our the media depends on advertising (except for
free-speach radio like Pacifica and some college stations), advertising
that would disappear for an un-American media that didn't support the
government's declared intent of protecting the American people.

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.
I must have been asleep when this happened, thanks for bringing it to
our attention. We do the same thing to Haitians all the time:-(

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a few
times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is
impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly there
don't seem to be enough of such people around.

Loaf? Typo or Aussi argot?
She seems to tour a lot. My understanding was that she was live from
Australia and her guest David Lockebaum (sp?) could have been anywhere.
If You Love This Planet, hosted by Dr. Helen Caldicott
http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=26076
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBB0s...eature=related

"Billy" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message


Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could
possibly
approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.

i didn't, i don't.

:-)) Thought not.

but i don't give a flying **** who the president of the usa is, &
that's
the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it,
so
i
therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the
Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world
wants
to see anyone like that in power again, EVER.

Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem.

Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in
his position should be.

Is it just me? I'm feeling a whole lot of 'tude here. Are you reacting t
what I said or what you think I said? If this is to be a conversation,
then let's keep it in response to what is written.

It's must be just you because I DID respond to what you wrote. You wrote
"Bush isn't the problem". There is absolutely no way to misinterprete that
sentence as he is either the problem or he's not the problem. I think he's
certainly a huge part of the problem as he's complicit and that is what I
wrote.

Bush is guilty but he isn't the puppeteer who orchestrates the show. He
is a political hack representing his moneyed backers over the interests
of the electorate.

And nothing I wrote in the sentence which you think has ""tude", disagrees
with what you've NOW written. You are now saying he's guilty, whereas
before you said he wasn't the problem. He is the problem just as there are
also many other problem individuals and corporations and vested interests
etc.

If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this
administration, then we are all in deep doo.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the
past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in
this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in
the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a
weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your
chance
next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your
choices.
You ain't the only one sister.

No. Despite all the hoopla, I've picked up from my reading that there are a
lot of people around who aren't convinced by any of the candidates.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a
bunch
of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots
of
people simply can't keep up.

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald
faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is
imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country
that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a
ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally
for peace.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try
to
use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate
those
within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of
any
degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many
times
does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the
current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the
patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts
to
think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and
believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?

It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know
that
he's being manipualted.

With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept
unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big
place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks
away (or should be).
I don't know how Ruppert Murdock plays in Australia, but he is the most
egregious example of media incompetence in America, but still, only the
most egregious.

He pops over here now and again to see his mother and he owns a lot of media
here but there is still good competition for all of his media including good
free to air media, so he isn't seen as too much of a problem. We were all
delighted though when he took out American citerzenship as we could claim
that he no longer belonged to us.

Studies have shown that views of Fox News are worse
informed than people who don't watch anything. Viewers of Fox News are
still likely to think that Saddam Hussein had WMDs.

Yeah. Sad that.

The rest of the
media here is similar. The hysteria from the "corporate press" and the
"reputable" N.Y. Times, and Judith Miller, helped convince the country
that intervention was necessary. They were aided and abetted by
Gen.Colin Powell, who most of us thought was a good guy.

I've always wondered how much of an orchestrated campaign it was in the US
to whip up support for the invasion of Iraq whatever the cost. IIRC, the
statistics supporting the war were about two thirds against and one third
for in the rest of the world and the reverse in the US. I've always thought
it was a deliberate and well planned con job and I've also thought that
Colin Powell was conned too and that is why he slunk off into the night when
it al came unstuck. How embarrassing for him.

Nearly all of our the media depends on advertising (except for
free-speach radio like Pacifica and some college stations), advertising
that would disappear for an un-American media that didn't support the
government's declared intent of protecting the American people.

Indeed. And given that any one of us is far, far, far more likely to die as
a result of a car crash or even the flu, the hype over terrorism was rather
over the top given the circumstances as terrorism wasn't new and had been
building up since the Munich Olympics.

I've always thought that only 3,000 people dying in the WTC collapse was an
alsolute miracle. It's appalling for the families and it was a huge tragedy
but on the other hand, a quarter of a million people a day entered that
complex yet only 3,000 were lost. It could have been so much worse so the
survival of so many really is a triumph of American building skills,
emergency procedures, heroism etc.

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a
case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause
of
rational thinking or high human ideals.
I must have been asleep when this happened, thanks for bringing it to
our attention. We do the same thing to Haitians all the time:-(

It was a shameful incident and until that happened, I had never felt ashamed
to be an Australian.

Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your
countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last
thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting
a
new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php .
Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a
few
times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is
impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly
there
don't seem to be enough of such people around.

Loaf? Typo or Aussi argot?

Use her loaf = use her head.

She seems to tour a lot. My understanding was that she was live from
Australia and her guest David Lockebaum (sp?) could have been anywhere.
If You Love This Planet, hosted by Dr. Helen Caldicott
http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=26076

I think she lives here now and has a place in a forest somewhere in either
south eastern NSW of north eastern Victoria. I've seen her on a few panel
interviews etc and she is a very good analyst of the issues

I'll check out your cites, but can't do them from this ISP that I use to
read newsgroups.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

but is there not a common sitting length over the year?

No. It used to be 21 or 22 weeks of the year (can't remember which) but
under Howard, they reduced it to 18 weeks because they could guillotine
discussion and ram legislation through.

to me, the difference between 18 & 22 is not much :-)

The trouble is that when the poor *******s aren't in the House, they're in
their electorates dealing with all sorts of drongos. Sure, they get the
genuine cases that need help, but they also seem to get an enormous amount
of the knuckle draggers just taking up time and resources because they
haven't a clue who to turn to for 'help' (or to whinge to). They spend
thier life being exhausted from what I've seen of them.

yes, well. somebody has to do it :-)

i tend to feel sorry for them re workload, but then again, they get their
perks & that was their choice. ( & i'm glad SOMEBODY does it!)

And really, if he can do the job (still waiting to see) who cares what his
ties look like?

well, clearly, i do. g

but i knew about the tie problem before the election, so i can manage.

i loved paul keating (he's hilarious) and something else was that you always
knew that when he was on the news, he would NOT be wearing an aqua tie!!

truthfully though, i don't care as long as the right thing (or soemthing
similar) is done. i just HAD to have a whinge about that man's ties!!!!!!!!!
bomber beazley had a makeover in the 80s (ex- brown safari suits -
remember?) and look what it did for him! oh... hang on...

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic
contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new
President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

it is an unbelievable waste of resources & time that could be better spent
on something worthwhile. that in itself makes it immoral imo.

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of
idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of
people simply can't keep up.

Can't or don't want to. I can cope with those who can't, it's the one's
who
don't want to who give me the irrits.

admittedly, i have more patience with those who simply can't - it's not
their fault.

but the thing is, if i get the shits with people who won't, then that just
doesn't help, it would only make me angry, it wouldn't achieve anything! you
get further working away gently on people (if it is something important - if
it's not, then just walking away unconcerned is also viable.) like i said,
it doesn't mean people don't have some value or things to contribute.

Sadly it is. The coverage of the un-thought-out idiocy opinions that
aren't
really news, but noise, is all too frequent. These days, it's like the
Enlightenment never, ever happened.

well, all forward steps involve some going backwards temporarily. you have
to take the longer view! and, as nomad said on "gladiators", the bridge to
enlightenment is full of obstacles. tee hee hee hahahaha. it's true, though.
(dh & i had a long conversation concerning whether it is right to touch
shallowly on philosophical or religious matters in a low-brain show like
"gladiators" & he thinks it is a good thing really. i disagreed. if you've
run out of things to discuss today, try that one!)

but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the
assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision,
they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect
them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-)
it kind of works, doesn't it?

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment
it
into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it
up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about
illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people
were
genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue
jumpers".

firstly, some people don't want to be saved from themselves.
secondly, concerning that & iraq many people came to regret what they
thought at the time. everyone's learning curve is different. it's just the
way it is! if you don't make mistakes, you can't learn - that's just the
truth of things.

In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case
of
sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of
rational thinking or high human ideals.

that's true. i suppose i would say it was certainly a learning experience
for some!

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves,
&
stuff like that.

No, they didn't execute people, but I'm not convinced that they wouldn't
have tried it if they thought they could get away with it given the tricks
they used right across the board. I should lend you a book called
"Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the
Public
Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I
know
they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you
name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

i absolutely agree. i don't think most of us really took seriously just how
dreadful they had become (not to mention, anti-democratic) & now it's over
perhaps we have moved on too quickly.

however, at the end of the day, i don't & would never believe they compared
to china or places with similarly appalling human rights problems. the point
is mainly that we need to be better & be good role models (if we're so
thrilled by democracy, we need to live it daily, not just when it suits. in
the end they weren't doing that. in fact, i doubt they were in the
beginning, either ;-)

:-)) Take up genealogy/family history and you start to read about
illnesses
that are still out there in other parts of the world and in places we
think
of as first world countries. TB being just one of those diseases. Just
for
info, we chose not to be vaccinated for Japanese encephalitis and won't be
taking the malaria treatment. If I suddenly stop posting, some tropical
nasty got me (either that or my ISP is giving me probs as it has more than
once).

well, don't die horribly, then! :-)
kylie

All about sustainable agriculture and sustainable agriculture, which Support the development of good habitat, and are similar who needs what you grow (food miles), it does not mean that you can production out of something very barren land.