"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

Ironite?

You can live without it.

Yes, but the plants cannot. Our soil was very low in Iron when tested.

Liquid Chelated Iron 32 oz. Price: $10.95

Sulfur Powder 2 lb Price: $4.95

I have sulfur powder and used it, but it can affect the soil PH whereas
Ironite doesn't. There has to be iron in the soil for the sulfur to work.
The soils here are very low in Iron. 32 oz of liquid Iron covers how large
a garden? We have several vegetable gardens.


and no heavy metals
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Big brevity snip.

Perhaps worth a try.

Bill
.............

http://www.seedsofchange.com/enewsletter/issue_28/issue_28.aspProtect

Your Crops Sanely and Humanely
Hot Pepper Wax
Capsaicin, the ingredient in hot peppers that gives them heat, is a
powerful feeding deterrent and will even kill many insect pests. Hot
pepper wax is a formulation containing capsaicin, which can be sprayed
regularly on plants to prevent damage from aphids, whiteflies, spider
mites, thrips, leafhoppers, scales and many other soft-bodied insects.
It can also be used as a feeding deterrent for rabbits and deer. Waxes
in the mixture help the spray stick to leaves making it last up to two
weeks. Be sure to respray newly emerged leaves during that time period.
And don't worry, the pepper spray washes off easily enough that it won't
linger after harvest.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

I hesitate to buy even more products since nothing has worked so far. The
Neem Oil (about $12) was supposed to work and didn't. Rotenone (around $9)
didn't work... couldn't find pyrethrum. The light summer oil ($10) was
supposed to work. I have about 8 things here (over $90 w/chemicals) and
none made more than a small difference in the whitefly and mite populations.
The pests must be gaining immunity to the organic pesticides as they have
the chemicals. My gardens are large and it's now starting to run into a lot
of money - and there's little improvement.

In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Big brevity snip.

Perhaps worth a try.

Bill
.............

http://www.seedsofchange.com/enewsletter/issue_28/issue_28.aspProtect

Your Crops Sanely and Humanely
Hot Pepper Wax
Capsaicin, the ingredient in hot peppers that gives them heat, is a
powerful feeding deterrent and will even kill many insect pests. Hot
pepper wax is a formulation containing capsaicin, which can be sprayed
regularly on plants to prevent damage from aphids, whiteflies, spider
mites, thrips, leafhoppers, scales and many other soft-bodied insects.
It can also be used as a feeding deterrent for rabbits and deer. Waxes
in the mixture help the spray stick to leaves making it last up to two
weeks. Be sure to respray newly emerged leaves during that time period.
And don't worry, the pepper spray washes off easily enough that it won't
linger after harvest.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

I hesitate to buy even more products since nothing has worked so far. The
Neem Oil (about $12) was supposed to work and didn't. Rotenone (around $9)
didn't work... couldn't find pyrethrum. The light summer oil ($10) was
supposed to work. I have about 8 things here (over $90 w/chemicals) and
none made more than a small difference in the whitefly and mite populations.
The pests must be gaining immunity to the organic pesticides as they have


the chemicals. My gardens are large and it's now starting to run into a lot
of money - and there's little improvement.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/p...earch&search=p
yrethrum&item=637

http://www.biconet.com/botanicals/rps.html

Sounds like you have a challenge. Best practice may be to go fallow.

Best

Bill

Ps Rotenone has human health issues. Big ones!

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Big brevity snip.

Perhaps worth a try.

Bill
.............

http://www.seedsofchange.com/enewsletter/issue_28/issue_28.aspProtect

Your Crops Sanely and Humanely
Hot Pepper Wax
Capsaicin, the ingredient in hot peppers that gives them heat, is a
powerful feeding deterrent and will even kill many insect pests. Hot
pepper wax is a formulation containing capsaicin, which can be sprayed
regularly on plants to prevent damage from aphids, whiteflies, spider
mites, thrips, leafhoppers, scales and many other soft-bodied insects.
It can also be used as a feeding deterrent for rabbits and deer. Waxes
in the mixture help the spray stick to leaves making it last up to two
weeks. Be sure to respray newly emerged leaves during that time period.
And don't worry, the pepper spray washes off easily enough that it
won't
linger after harvest.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

I hesitate to buy even more products since nothing has worked so far. The
Neem Oil (about $12) was supposed to work and didn't. Rotenone (around
$9)
didn't work... couldn't find pyrethrum. The light summer oil ($10) was
supposed to work. I have about 8 things here (over $90 w/chemicals) and
none made more than a small difference in the whitefly and mite
populations.
The pests must be gaining immunity to the organic pesticides as they have


the chemicals. My gardens are large and it's now starting to run into a
lot
of money - and there's little improvement.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/p...earch&search=p
yrethrum&item=637

http://www.biconet.com/botanicals/rps.html

Sounds like you have a challenge. Best practice may be to go fallow.

As I mentioned somewhere here,.. this garden laid fallow 2 years due to an
accident I had. Several surgeries on my knee and physical rehab kept me out
of the garden. I'm surrounded by woodland and fields... and both are full
of insects and bugs. Virus and bacterial diseases have not been a problem.
I never saw whitefly here before, or spider-mites. The biggest pests were a
few Japanese beetles and the ubiquitous SVB. Aphids one year when we lived
in town.

I believe the spidermites came in on a gift palm I recieved last winter. It
was incurable so I trashed it this spring. Most likely not before a few
mites fell of it.......... The whitefly probably came in on one of
the seedlings I bought last spring.

Thanks for the URLs.


Best

Bill

Ps Rotenone has human health issues. Big ones!

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...

Unfortunately the symptoms you're describing could be for several
diseases from bacterial spot to Cercospora. Could you post pictures on
a site like Photobucket so we can see exactly what you mean?


This was taken the end of June. You can see the peppers are tall, thin and
don't look normal. The tomatoes are still healthy. they're Romas,
EarlyGirls and Better Boys. Peppers are mixed Bells:
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-28.jpg
Here's a close up taken yesterday. No peppers and perhaps one flower. All
flowers and buds turn brown and fall off. The plants still have white fly
and a light mite load. Organics and chemicals didn't do much.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-15.jpg
This was taken yesterday.You can see the devastation to the tomatoes from
the WF and SMs.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-16.jpg
The two eggplants are totally infested with mites and WF. The "eggs" stopped
growing.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-17.jpg
Another shot:
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-18.jpg
This is what the WFs did to the string beans.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-12.jpg
I have no idea why these crooknecks suffer from. Their leaves are silvery
white. They have only a few WF and no mites. They're not near the gardens.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...mer2008-13.jpg

I've been gardening since the late 1950s and never seen anything like this
before. The other two gardens are still OK but it's only a matter of time
before the spider mites get to them - one way or another.

Marie Dodge said:

I believe the spidermites came in on a gift palm I recieved last winter. It
was incurable so I trashed it this spring. Most likely not before a few
mites fell of it.......... The whitefly probably came in on one of
the seedlings I bought last spring.

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html


--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

I believe the spidermites came in on a gift palm I recieved last winter.
It
was incurable so I trashed it this spring. Most likely not before a few
mites fell of it.......... The whitefly probably came in on one
of
the seedlings I bought last spring.

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html

Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you? So far the only
thing I've seen make any difference this past week is called Organocide. I
got it at Lowe's. It's made with fish oil and smells like Cod Liver Oil. We
went to the Extension Office today with samples from our garden. The agent
didn't find signs of anything but whitefly and 2-spot spider mites. He said
they were the worst infested leaves he ever saw. We have to stop making our
own compost because there is no real way to kill them off in compost. I
could spread the problem all over the property with compost from the
gardens. He told us of a place we can get all the free stuff to compost we
can haul away. We're going to burn the entire pile we now have and get the
shredded stuff he told us about.



--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Marie Dodge said:



"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html

Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them. And it even
turns up on some extension service websites:
http://everest.ento.vt.edu/~idlab/ve...idermites.html

And the following article references a study which found that "(f)our applications
have been shown to kill 95 % of red spider mite infestation."
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/def...anicPesticides

But having seed your pictures (after my post) it looks like your infestation is
so bad that burning everything would be the best thing at this point. I'd maybe
even consider running a flame over every inch of garden.

Then hit every dormant shrub or tree in the vicinity of the garden with some
dormant sprays of oil before they break bud next spring.

Then maybe hit the area with lime sulfur after bud break:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc
= http://www.infrc.jp/english/KNF_Data...a/C6-6-238.pdf

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Well you can also use insecticide soap.

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:



"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html

Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them. And it even
turns up on some extension service websites:
http://everest.ento.vt.edu/~idlab/ve...idermites.html

OK. I'm sure it did. Unfortunately none of the organic products or
concoctions have ever worked for us. Many people claim Neem Oil worked for
them and it did nothing to even slow them down in my garden. I threw away
another $10, $12 for the Neem Oil. The light oil "Organicide" did damage
the plants as I thought it might. The mites continue on but the white fly
population was cut by maybe 25%. Hardly worth the expense. I would like to
know what organic or inorganic actually works on mites other than Kelthane
which I can't get anymore. Kelthane was the only product I ever had that
killed the mites in two sprayings.


And the following article references a study which found that "(f)our
applications
have been shown to kill 95 % of red spider mite infestation."
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/def...anicPesticides

Actually it says: "Flour preparations Flour mixed in water *is said to be*
very effective against aphids and spider mites.." I'm curious, said by who?
Where were the experiments done and by who? I couldn't find any further
information.


But having seed your pictures (after my post) it looks like your
infestation is
so bad that burning everything would be the best thing at this point. I'd
maybe
even consider running a flame over every inch of garden.

No one I know has ever seen such an infestation of whitefly and spider mite,
including the extension agent. The heat, low humidity and lack of rain is
certainly contributing to this infestation. In fact it's spreading across
the grass, other wild plants and the trees on the property around us. It's
spread to the flower beds. At this point trying to control the mite and
w/flies is a waste of time.


Then hit every dormant shrub or tree in the vicinity of the garden with
some
dormant sprays of oil before they break bud next spring.
Then maybe hit the area with lime sulfur after bud break:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc
=
http://www.infrc.jp/english/KNF_Data...a/C6-6-238.pdf


We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the info.....

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"Ashley Hunt" wrote in message
...

Well you can also use insecticide soap.


In hot dry weather and drought conditions these soaps can harm the plants as
can the light summer ag oils.

Marie Dodge said:

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

In reference to wheat flour/buttermilk mite remedy:
Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them.

Actually, I should have said "no, I've never used it myself." I rarely
use any pesticides these day, and even those are mainly limited to soap
and pyrethrin.

Many people claim Neem Oil worked for
them and it did nothing to even slow them down in my garden.

Neem oil has some very few legitimate uses but is touted as a panacea.
And there is no such thing as a panacea. I would have warned you off
that...

I would like to
know what organic or inorganic actually works on mites other than
Kelthane
which I can't get anymore. Kelthane was the only product I ever had that
killed the mites in two sprayings.

Lime sulfur, maybe, as per info at: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc

(Lime sulfur is a long-standing remedy for a long list of mites, including
mange mites and chiggers as well as horticultural pests.)

BUT! I wouldn't expect any remedy (even Kelthane, if you could get it) to
help at this point. But dusts (flour or mineral) are legitimate remedies
for insects and mite pests. Call them 'particle films' and they even sound
....exciting:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6j3m22

Which takes you to:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles...ook%20Chapter%
20Particle%20Film%20Technolgy.pdf

That document contains the following line:

"Although not mineral-based, Ghate and Marshall (1962) suppressed eggs
and mobile forms of European red mite and two-spotted spider mites with a
combination of buttermilk and wheat flour."

The kaolin-based product, Surround (R), which is mention in the
document cited above, is available mail-order to home gardeners from
various places (if anyone is interested).


Then hit every dormant shrub or tree in the vicinity of the garden with
some
dormant sprays of oil before they break bud next spring.
Then maybe hit the area with lime sulfur after bud break:

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take
thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the info.....

Hell, even people who *don't* live out in the country are surrounded by
other peoples yards with plenty of trees, bushes, weeds and flowers
which are *completely* beyond their control, let alone being beyond their
*budget*! Why did you assume I meant such a hugely extensive action?

Perhaps I should have thrown in the word "immediate" before "vicinity."
As in, if you have a row of raspberries, or a hedge row, or a couple
of peach trees next to the garden, spray *them* (they almost certainly
need the protection, after what's happened this year).

Next year, you will need to invest in prevention, which is always less
expensive and more effective than trying to cure. (Prevention is
less expensive, though not FREE.)

Right now you are hit hard with "throwing good money after bad"
regret/anger, and the fact that the most reasonable action at this point is
to destroy everything you planted for this year, which hurts.

HURTS BIGTIME!

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Marie Dodge said:



"Ashley Hunt" wrote in
message
...

Well you can also use insecticide soap.


In hot dry weather and drought conditions these soaps can harm the
plants as
can the light summer ag oils.

Which is why my practice when I use a soap spray is to do it in the coolest
part of the day, then rinse the plants with fresh water afterwards.

Soap kills very quickly. Hit the pests with a good soaking spray of soap
solution, then come back to the start of your spray circuit and do a rinse,
and the pest will have died and the foliage damage should be minimal.

I can absolutely vouch for this with earwigs, aphids, and leaf beetles.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

In article ,
Pat Kiewicz wrote:

But thanks for the info.....

I'll second that. Very informative post. Thank you Pat.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

In reference to wheat flour/buttermilk mite remedy:
Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them.

Actually, I should have said "no, I've never used it myself." I rarely
use any pesticides these day, and even those are mainly limited to soap
and pyrethrin.

I know what you mean. I seldom had bug/insect problems in my gardens. This
is the first wf and sm I've ever seen here. Usually just a few tomato horn
worms, a squash bug or two and a couple Japanese beetles... they've never
been a problem. Only SBV are here every year.


Many people claim Neem Oil worked for
them and it did nothing to even slow them down in my garden.

Neem oil has some very few legitimate uses but is touted as a panacea.
And there is no such thing as a panacea. I would have warned you off
that...

I have no way to know who tried the products they recommend and who just
makes suggestions because someone told them it worked for their brother's
sister-in-law's tenant's daughter.... you know what I mean.


I would like to
know what organic or inorganic actually works on mites other than
Kelthane
which I can't get anymore. Kelthane was the only product I ever had that
killed the mites in two sprayings.

Lime sulfur, maybe, as per info at: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc
(Lime sulfur is a long-standing remedy for a long list of mites, including
mange mites and chiggers as well as horticultural pests.)

After looking at the one garden today I don't think it would matter anymore.
The season ends here in Mid October. There's no time left to get a pepper
crop. The damage to the plants is too severe. Too many weeks wasted trying
things people recommended that didn't work, or barely worked. The smelly
Organicide is slowing working, but it's too late now. It will take to long.


BUT! I wouldn't expect any remedy (even Kelthane, if you could get it) to
help at this point. But dusts (flour or mineral) are legitimate remedies
for insects and mite pests. Call them 'particle films' and they even
sound
...exciting:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6j3m22

I would love to find an organic answer. Very interesting read. Thanks. :^)


Which takes you to:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles...ook%20Chapter%
20Particle%20Film%20Technolgy.pdf

That document contains the following line:

"Although not mineral-based, Ghate and Marshall (1962) suppressed eggs
and mobile forms of European red mite and two-spotted spider mites with a
combination of buttermilk and wheat flour."

The kaolin-based product, Surround (R), which is mention in the
document cited above, is available mail-order to home gardeners from
various places (if anyone is interested).

I'll look for it locally. Shipping today often costs more than or the same
as the product itself. And at this point these plants are hardly worth
pouring more money on.

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take
thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the
info.....

Hell, even people who *don't* live out in the country are surrounded by
other peoples yards with plenty of trees, bushes, weeds and flowers
which are *completely* beyond their control, let alone being beyond their
*budget*! Why did you assume I meant such a hugely extensive action?

Sorry, must have misunderstood you.


Perhaps I should have thrown in the word "immediate" before "vicinity."
As in, if you have a row of raspberries, or a hedge row, or a couple
of peach trees next to the garden, spray *them* (they almost certainly
need the protection, after what's happened this year).

Oh... OK. Gotcha. :^)


Next year, you will need to invest in prevention, which is always less
expensive and more effective than trying to cure. (Prevention is
less expensive, though not FREE.)
Right now you are hit hard with "throwing good money after bad"
regret/anger, and the fact that the most reasonable action at this point
is
to destroy everything you planted for this year, which hurts.

HURTS BIGTIME!

Yep, it's got one week for us to see serious improvement. If none, then
everything from that garden is being burned, cremated. The ashes will be
spread out by the road. We're not using anything from the gardens for
compost this year. We found a place to get loads of mulch to compost from
the city. It's all shredded tree limbs, bark and leaves. Next year I'll
start spraying the plants the day I set them out.


--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.