In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Isabella Woodhouse" wrote in message
...
In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

"Isabella Woodhouse" wrote in message
...
In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

"Isabella Woodhouse" wrote in message
.
..
Two of our gardens are still producing. The west garden
(squash, peppers, eggplants and tomatoes) went down to the
spider mites. Little is left. The string beans were harmed by
the organic insecticides (Organicide and Need Oil) and some
died.

I've seen Organocide (fish & sesame oils) used for blackspot &
powdery mildew on roses which don't seem to mind oily compounds
used on them even regularly. But I honestly don't know how well
beans, which are kind of fuzzy plants by nature, tolerate oil
applications.

Many of them didn't but nothing else was working people
recommended. Peppers don't like the oils either. I lost one
Pimento pepper plant. Others dropped a few leaves. The toms and
eggs didn't seem to mind though. Neem Oil was useless but
Organicide did finish off most of the white fly and a goodly
number of spider mites. The west garden plants were so severely
damaged by the insects, spiders and sprays I doubt any will make a
recovery and produce anything worth harvesting. Our first frost is
7 to 8 weeks away. The heat and drought isn't helping matters any.
I'm glad I have 3 gardens. Next year there will be 4. If one
fails there will be the others......

We haven't had to use any this year but we've used Neem oil in
the past and never had it damage anything.

It doesn't kill anything off either. It doesn't do what they
claim it does.

What specific claim was that?

That it stops nymphs from feeding and the the pests die out. I didn't
see where Neem did anything but lighten my wallet.

When a garden is as infested as you repeatedly said yours was, instant
results are not possible.

Neem oil is a better preventive than a cure. It does not usually
work by outright killing insects (like Malathion or Sevin);

Here again, I used them BOTH and neither made much difference.

Perhaps you would benefit from taking a course in gardening. The master
gardener course is excellent and is in most states through the Extension
Service or Horticulture divisions at State universities. The cost is
minimal and you would learn the whole dynamic of gardening, how to build
a good garden ecosystem that will improve each year, what harmful things
to avoid, and how to apply necessary and safe controls and fertilizers.

There is so much resistance or immunity in the pests today that many
insecticides are almost useless.

To the extent this is true, this is why natural controls are better over
the long haul. People managed to farm for thousands of years without
Malathion, Sevin, and the myriad of other toxic substances that are
harming both the environment and animals including humans. It takes
just a bit of finesse, some easily-obtainable knowledge, patience and
some time to work with nature instead of against it. Just some
reasonable effort has a huge payoff in the long run.

The man at Lowe's told me he's hearing more complaints from people
every year that the insecticides aren't working as they did in the
past.

And yet the same people keep dumping ever more dangerous poisons on
their plants. It's baffling.

it's more of a disruptor of the natural life cycle
of certain pests and helps to keep them from reproducing. It
certainly does not work instantly on crops that are already
severely compromised, like yours.

It didn't even slow down their reproduction or my crops would never
have gotten so infested. They were nowhere near that point when I
started spraying. I have a list of sprays used that had little or no
effect on the spider mites and whiteflies.

Like I said, your garden was too far gone by the time you tried the Neem
Oil and the Organocide. You had already used Malathion, Sevin and
heaven knows what else. You did not mention using any preventive
measures either. Has your soil been tested and amended? Have you
composted? Are your plants getting enough nutrition, water and sun to
resist pest attacks? Plants need a good deal more than nitrogen,
phosphorus and potassium. Did you mulch? Do you have an environment
that is conducive to birds and insects that prey on garden pests? I
can't imagine the latter is true since you're using harmful poisons.

As with other things in life, there are rarely quick and dirty
solutions. Any decent gardener will tell you that gardening is a great
deal more than putting a few seeds in the ground and spraying when the
plants fail to thrive.

If I hadn't wasted weeks with organic pesticides that didn't work
I wouldn't have lost the garden. By the time I became convinced
Neem Oil and Rotenone were useless it was really too late.

I read your posts in rec.gardens.edible where numbers of people
gave you lots of prudent suggestions, most of which you rejected,
sometimes with antagonism toward so-called organic measures.

Which ideas did I reject?

You've complained at almost every suggestion. I'd call that a
rejection.

You were dosing your severely compromised plants with at least four
or five different things including some extremely toxic poisons
that are known to kill a large number of different helpful insect
species.

If any helpful insect species were in the garden before I started
spraying the pests would never have gotten to such populations they
killed the plants. Where were all these helpful species when the
pests first showed up?

Dead from your use of Malathion, Sevin and, likely, a host of other
poisons you've been using for many years.

And yet you seem so certain
that it was the organic methods which ruined your garden and not
the spider mites, white fly, squash vine borers, or anything else.

Think again........ it was the FAILURE of the organic methods that
allowed the insect population to reach such deadly numbers.

Hornswoggle. Your Sevin and Malathion didn't seem to work either but
you're not blaming it on them. Could it be because you were
fundamentally antagonistic, from the start, to more natural or organic
methods?

No method, including organic methods, can work instantaneously in an
already compromised, intensely poisoned environment such as yours
appears to be. They take time and care as I've already indicated. You
want it as easy as waving a spray wand and when that fails, you blame it
on the product. That is not gardening, Marie. It is a fantasy.

...Organicide was the last thing on the list to try. It smells
terrible and doesn't pour well. It goes everywhere when you try
and pour it, adding to the stink. And that is also wasteful.

Organocide is supposed to be applied as a spray. It stinks because
it has fish oil in it. If you have difficulty with that smell, I'd
recommend against ever using blood meal.

I know it's a spray and I know it contains fish oil. I can read the
directions on the bottle. I'm not illiterate. The blood meal sold
here is odorless but I can no longer afford to buy it or bone meal.
When what I have is gone, that's it. Pure organic is no longer for
those of moderate income.

Is that what you call what you did? Buy a couple of sprays? That's
"pure organic"?

[...]
One problem with using mainstream insecticides like the Sevin
and Malathion you previously noted is that they are broad
spectrum, extremely toxic, and also kill predators which feast
on some of the pests you mentioned.

Apparently there were no predator insects to feed on them or they
wouldn't have reached the numbers they did that stopped production
dead in it's tracks, turning the plants into those pics you saw.
That was the damage from the WFs and SMs, not the insecticides.

And how many years have you been using Malathion, Sevin, and the
like?

Since THIS SPRING since we never had this kind of infestation before.
Next you'll claim these sprays only kill the beneficial.

Don't be silly. I'm not the one making ridiculous claims. You are.
Malathion and Sevin are well known poisons. It's a fact that they are
broad spectrum pesticides. Look it up. Reading won't hurt you, I
promise. Despite your pleas for help in multiple forums, you've been
antagonistic to almost any suggestion. So, if the poisons are the way
to go and work so well, then why are you complaining?

Stop trying to blame the sprays. The west garden laid fallow for 2
years besides it never seeing sprays in the past.

Once the natural balance is destroyed, it can take several years
to restore it. I sure hope you can resolve some of these issues
and have more fun with your gardens.

Apparently there was no natural balance to start with - see
above.

I recall you saying you've had this property for over 20 years.

And THAT has what to do with he lack of beneficial insects?

Your property, Marie, is not independent of your gardens. They are all
part of the same ecosystem. You've had 20 years to at least allow the
development of an healthy ecosystem. Based on what you've said in
various posts, had you left it alone for twenty years, it would likely
have been far better off than it is with whatever you've done to it.
You've been rather blunt with me so I'm being equally candid with you.

No one is forcing you to garden organically or use any particular method
at all. You asked for help--- complained incessantly in
rec.gardens.edible for months--- but you seemed antagonistic to all the
suggestions you received. You even lashed out at people who gave you
wise advice. You're upset because you bought a couple of so-called
organic products and they did not instantaneously resolve your very
severe problems. So you blame all your gardening failures on them
alone. "Organic" and "natural" are clearly members of your axis of
evil.

Your entire scenario is not only illogical. It is preposterous.

My last piece of advice is to stop all the whinging at people who try to
help you and give a little more time learning.

Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot

"Isabella Woodhouse" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

That it stops nymphs from feeding and the the pests die out. I didn't
see where Neem did anything but lighten my wallet.

When a garden is as infested as you repeatedly said yours was, instant
results are not possible.

Sorry to give the impression I expected "instant" results. After almost a
month I realized their numbers were increasing, not decreasing.


Neem oil is a better preventive than a cure. It does not usually
work by outright killing insects (like Malathion or Sevin);


Here again, I used them BOTH and neither made much difference.

Perhaps you would benefit from taking a course in gardening. The master
gardener course is excellent and is in most states through the Extension
Service or Horticulture divisions at State universities. The cost is
minimal and you would learn the whole dynamic of gardening, how to build
a good garden ecosystem that will improve each year, what harmful things
to avoid, and how to apply necessary and safe controls and fertilizers.

That information is not only online but as close as my phone - our Ag agent.
I also have the old Rodale Book of Organic Gardening. I've been
successfully gardening since the late 1950s. You can't seem to grasp that
these insects and mites had nothing to stop them. Where were all the
beneficials you're convinced were there? No one ever sprayed that garden
since it was NEW and laid fallow for 2 years.


There is so much resistance or immunity in the pests today that many
insecticides are almost useless.

To the extent this is true, this is why natural controls are better over
the long haul.

Where were the "natural" controls when the first spiders and WFs arrived?
This garden had never been sprayed.


People managed to farm for thousands of years without
Malathion, Sevin, and the myriad of other toxic substances that are
harming both the environment and animals including humans.

And famines were common when crop failures occurred. Remember the potato
famine in Ireland and the Rice famine in China? Chemical sprays didn't exist
in those days. At times insects or viral or bacterial disease became so
invasive thousands of acres of crops were wiped out. My grandparents told me
about hunger caused by crop failure in Europe in the early part last
Century. Where do you get the idea crops remained healthy and the land
'balanced' in the past? There were insects and plant diseases back then as
there are now.

It takes
just a bit of finesse, some easily-obtainable knowledge, patience and
some time to work with nature instead of against it. Just some
reasonable effort has a huge payoff in the long run.

And what would you suggest someone do when they realize their garden is
infested with WFs and Spider mites? A garden that was never sprayed with
anything? The soil full of organic matter and the plants put out in
excellent condition. Just leave them to destroy the crop while you hope a
few beneficials happen by? Why was Neem Oil and Pyrethrum recommended?


The man at Lowe's told me he's hearing more complaints from people
every year that the insecticides aren't working as they did in the
past.

And yet the same people keep dumping ever more dangerous poisons on
their plants. It's baffling.

Yes it is since they have no other choice as they watch their expensive
landscaping destroyed by viral, bacterial or fungal diseases. And insect
pests destroy one plant after another. It's baffling that nothing works
isn't it? Nothing "natural" kills the diseases insect pests spread to
landscape and garden plants. Nothing natural devours mealy bugs and spider
mites and Japanese beetles.


it's more of a disruptor of the natural life cycle
of certain pests and helps to keep them from reproducing. It
certainly does not work instantly on crops that are already
severely compromised, like yours.

It didn't even slow down their reproduction or my crops would never
have gotten so infested. They were nowhere near that point when I
started spraying. I have a list of sprays used that had little or no
effect on the spider mites and whiteflies.


Like I said, your garden was too far gone by the time you tried the Neem
Oil and the Organocide.

Like I said, the Neem Oil was tried long before the pests reached such
numbers. I guess you missed many of my posts. By the time I realized Neem
Oil and Pyrethrum were useless.... it was too late. Like I said, this is a
new garden never sprayed with anything before so no beneficials, if they
existed in this garden, were ever killed off.


You had already used Malathion, Sevin and
heaven knows what else. You did not mention using any preventive
measures either.

As I said, no sprays were ever used in this garden.

Has your soil been tested and amended? Have you
composted? Are your plants getting enough nutrition, water and sun to
resist pest attacks? Plants need a good deal more than nitrogen,
phosphorus and potassium. Did you mulch?

Like I said, you missed many of my posts.. This has all been covered. Yes
they're mulched, and yes there is a lot of organic matter in the soil, but
the insects didn't care.

Do you have an environment
that is conducive to birds and insects that prey on garden pests? I
can't imagine the latter is true since you're using harmful poisons.

What harmful poisons were used in that garden before the the organic crap
obviously failed? How many times must I tell you this was a NEW garden that
had laid fallow 2 years. No sprays were ever used in it. No neighbors came
over and sprayed poison on the compost rotting on the soil for 2 years. No
one can get back there past the dogs to spray poisons.


As with other things in life, there are rarely quick and dirty
solutions. Any decent gardener will tell you that gardening is a great
deal more than putting a few seeds in the ground and spraying when the
plants fail to thrive.

Like I said but you keep missing, I've been successfully gardening since the
late 1950s.


Which ideas did I reject?

You've complained at almost every suggestion. I'd call that a
rejection.

What suggestions have I complained about regarding this infestation? Taking
out a loan for hundreds of dollars to buy and ship hundreds of pounds of
amendments is not possible. How is that a complaint? It's a fact. Do you
consider a fact a complaint? We get organic matter for free now that we
don't get enough from our own property. Even if I could get a bank loan for
soil amendments (which I couldn't pay back anyway) it wont have any effect
on this infestation. That garden had at least 5" or more of partly rotted
leaves and weeds and kitchen waste tilled in. These same insects and spiders
are on the native vegetation in my area were no one ever sprayed anything.
You seem obsessed with the notion someone was spraying poisons all over this
garden for no reason at all causing all the beneficials to die, but
magically leaving the pests alive. Who sprayed the fields next door or the
woods behind my house where no one lives? Or the old abandoned farm across
the road where I found WFs on some hollyhocks gone wild and spiders on a
patch of English ivy near the barn. No one's lived there for over 30 years.
Where are the beneficials? I didn't see anything feeding on them. I saw a
few lady bugs on some wildflowers that had aphids. That was all.


You were dosing your severely compromised plants with at least four
or five different things including some extremely toxic poisons
that are known to kill a large number of different helpful insect
species.

If any helpful insect species were in the garden before I started
spraying the pests would never have gotten to such populations they
killed the plants. Where were all these helpful species when the
pests first showed up?

Dead from your use of Malathion, Sevin and, likely, a host of other
poisons you've been using for many years.

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2
years. Do you know what fallow means? Apparently not. And I notice you
refuse to address the fact that organics were used for almost a month FIRST
before Malathion was used. You carefully side-step that *FACT* don't you?
You don't want it known organics are useless. You want people to think
Malathion was used first and killed the plants. How dishonest of you.


And yet you seem so certain
that it was the organic methods which ruined your garden and not
the spider mites, white fly, squash vine borers, or anything else.

Think again........ it was the FAILURE of the organic methods that
allowed the insect population to reach such deadly numbers.


Hornswoggle. Your Sevin and Malathion didn't seem to work either but
you're not blaming it on them. Could it be because you were
fundamentally antagonistic, from the start, to more natural or organic
methods?

Bullpippy.... don't lie. The first products used were Neem Oil and
Pyrethrum. I've mentioned this many times but you can't accept that. You
have to try and blame Malathion, the third product used. By then the plants
were too far gone from the useless Neem and Pyrethrum. Why are you trying
to hide the truth?


No method, including organic methods, can work instantaneously in an
already compromised, intensely poisoned environment such as yours
appears to be.

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2
years. Do you know what fallow means? Apparently not. And I notice you
refuse to address the fact that organics were used for almost a month FIRST
before Malathion was used. You carefully side-step that *FACT* don't you?
You don't want it known organics are useless. You want people to think
Malathion was used first and killed the plants. How dishonest of you.

They take time and care as I've already indicated. You
want it as easy as waving a spray wand and when that fails, you blame it
on the product. That is not gardening, Marie. It is a fantasy.

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2
years. Do you know what fallow means?


I know it's a spray and I know it contains fish oil. I can read the
directions on the bottle. I'm not illiterate. The blood meal sold
here is odorless but I can no longer afford to buy it or bone meal.
When what I have is gone, that's it. Pure organic is no longer for
those of moderate income.

Is that what you call what you did? Buy a couple of sprays? That's
"pure organic"?

Is Neem Oil and Pyrethrum organic or not? That's what was used when the
infestation started. Is that pure organic or were we supposed to just do
nothing as the plants were covered with more and more webs and WF? I've
already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2
years. No sprays had ever been used on the composting leaves and kitchen
waste.


And how many years have you been using Malathion, Sevin, and the
like?

Since THIS SPRING since we never had this kind of infestation before.
Next you'll claim these sprays only kill the beneficial.

Don't be silly. I'm not the one making ridiculous claims. You are.
Malathion and Sevin are well known poisons.

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for
2 years. No sprays had ever been used on the composting leaves and kitchen
waste.

It's a fact that they are
broad spectrum pesticides. Look it up. Reading won't hurt you, I
promise.

I did look it up and like I told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that
laid fallow for 2 years. No sprays had ever been used on the earth on
composting leaves.

Despite your pleas for help in multiple forums, you've been
antagonistic to almost any suggestion. So, if the poisons are the way
to go and work so well, then why are you complaining?

"Suggesting" to purchase expensive soil amendments when I'm asking about an
insect infestation is absurd. If you go into a store and ask where the shoe
dept. is, you don't want a lecture on buying socks and toenail clippers etc.
You organic fanatics used a simple question to try and cram your organic
ideas down my throat no matter what I posted. A few of you weren't even on
topic, nor did you even read what I posted before replying. I didn't ask
about soil amendments. I asked about an infestation in progress in a NEW
GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years where no sprays had ever been used on
the earth on composting leaves or the plants until they were already
infested. And here you foam and froth that this new garden was drenched in
poisons for years.


I recall you saying you've had this property for over 20 years.

And THAT has what to do with he lack of beneficial insects?

Your property, Marie, is not independent of your gardens. They are all
part of the same ecosystem. You've had 20 years to at least allow the
development of an healthy ecosystem.
Based on what you've said in
various posts, had you left it alone for twenty years, it would likely
have been far better off than it is with whatever you've done to it.
You've been rather blunt with me so I'm being equally candid with you.

Then blame GOD since the west garden area was all wooded until 4 years ago.
I've said this many times already so I know you either reply without reading
messages or you pretend ignorance. Because of chiggers and ticks no one
went back there. One winter it was cleared off. The following summer it was
used as a garden, then laid fallow for 2 years covered in leaves. Can you
comprehend what I'm saying? It was in GOD's care. No one went back there.


No one is forcing you to garden organically or use any particular method
at all. You asked for help--- complained incessantly in
rec.gardens.edible for months--- but you seemed antagonistic to all the
suggestions you received.

I asked about an unusual insect infestation, not about soil amendments and
long speeches on organic gardening principals which I am well aware of for
many years. I took someone's suggestion and used the Neem Oil and Pyrethrum
didn't I? You organic fanatics used my questions to get on your soap boxes
and push expensive amendments not even related to the ongoing infestation,
then have the gall to wonder why I got annoyed? I didn't ask about soil
amendments or where to buy and ship them from. The soil back there is
already loaded with organic matter. If I wanted info on costly amendments I
would have asked for it.

You even lashed out at people who gave you
wise advice. You're upset because you bought a couple of so-called
organic products and they did not instantaneously resolve your very
severe problems. So you blame all your gardening failures on them
alone. "Organic" and "natural" are clearly members of your axis of
evil.

See, more fanaticism on your part. Is three weeks of using useless products
as you watch the pest population explode instantaneous? How long were these
organic products supposed to take to show results? 3 months? 6 months?
Several plants had already died by the time I called the Ag dept. and
brought them plant samples.


Your entire scenario is not only illogical. It is preposterous.

So is yours.... someone asks about an ongoing infestation in a new garden on
virgin woodland and your foam that they sprayed poison all over that ground.
Instead of offing help with the infestation you jump on a soapbox and start
pushing organic soil amendments as though spending hundreds of dollars to
ship in these amendments will get rid of the pest infestation.


My last piece of advice is to stop all the whinging at people who try to
help you and give a little more time learning.

I've been successfully gardening since the late 1950s as I said many times,
but you fail to comprehend and accept that......


Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot

In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Isabella Woodhouse" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

There is so much resistance or immunity in the pests today that many
insecticides are almost useless.

To the extent this is true, this is why natural controls are better over
the long haul.

Where were the "natural" controls when the first spiders and WFs arrived?

In the garden with your unicorn, eating the lilies.

People managed to farm for thousands of years without
Malathion, Sevin, and the myriad of other toxic substances that are
harming both the environment and animals including humans.

And famines were common when crop failures occurred. Remember the potato
famine in Ireland and the Rice famine in China? Chemical sprays didn't exist
in those days. At times insects or viral or bacterial disease became so
invasive thousands of acres of crops were wiped out. My grandparents told me
about hunger caused by crop failure in Europe in the early part last
Century. Where do you get the idea crops remained healthy and the land
'balanced' in the past? There were insects and plant diseases back then as
there are now.

Hornswoggle. I didn't say crops always remained healthy or that
everything was always balanced, Marie. You did. You put forth that
straw-man, another of your many inventions, in an effort to give your
relentless nattering credibility. I simply said people managed to farm
for thousands of years without Malathion and Sevin--- a fact you cannot
argue.

And with that, I terminate this pointless discussion since anything else
I have to say would be in very bad form.
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot

"Isabella Woodhouse" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

Where were the "natural" controls when the first spiders and WFs arrived?

In the garden with your unicorn, eating the lilies.

See! When backed into the corner for a answer you scream and run
away..........

Your a frothing foaming know-it-all liar Isabella. Example: You claimed this
Co-Op doesn't exist when it's been there for years:

Davidson Farmers Co-Op
3511 Dickerson Pike
Nashville, TN 37207
(615) 860-4774

It's not nice to be a decietful liar. Shame on you!