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Old 24-08-2008, 10:10 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2007
Posts: 74
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

Hi All,

I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007. The tree is about 6 years old I think he said.
(I had
actually been looking for this specific cultivar for several years)

Anyway, I planted it according to the generally accepted planting
directions,
dug a big hole, watered it, mulched it, made sure the tree wasn't planted
too
deep and all of that. This was around Oct 2007. The tree needs a bit of
pruning, I decided to hold off on it for a year to make sure it would
survive
transplant shock. The one bit of pruning I did do around May of this year
was the tree had 3 verticals competing to be the leader, I topped 2 of them
and the remaining one I nipped 2 of the top shoots to leave a single one as
the leader. This single shoot grew about a foot this summer. So far so
good.

Now, here is the part I'm concerned about. This spring (April) the tree
flowered, here are the pics of it:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree3.jpg

Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. The tree produced a total of 6 apples. The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. (tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago) Here are the pics from that:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree4.jpg

The apples started dropping in early August, which is normal
for this cultivar. However, now the tree seems to be beginning to
show fall colors, here's current pics:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree4.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree5.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree6.jpg

Now, I'm not particularly upset about the yield this year - if the
tree had produced a big crop of apples I would have pinched most
of them off very early since I wanted the tree to put it's energy into
establishing it's root system, not producing apples.

But what concerns me is that it -appeared- that most of the blossoms
pollenated and were well on their way to producing apples - then just
abruptly died off.

I have looked up the diseases of apple trees to see if there is a match
to any symptoms. Blossom Wilt is one that might be a cause - but
it is supposed to shrivel fruits and damage leaves, and that did not happen.
There are no other symptoms.

Unfortunately as Transparent Yellow is (apparently, nowadays) not
commercially viable, nobody sells these apples anymore, and there is
little information out there other than old charts of when it is supposed to
ripen. None of the nursuries in the area (including one of the largest
which claims itself as apple experts) have ever heard of this cultivar,
and most of them in any case are more interested in selling you a
"modern" cultivar with fruit that tastes like warm water, and has been
(apparently) genetically engineered to be
resistant to everything short of a nuclear explosion, I assume because
once they have your money and their door hits your ass on the way out,
they don't want to see you again - at least, not complaining about your
tree you bought from them.

I am hoping that someone with some of these who has some experience
might be able to tell me if what I'm seeing is perfectly normal, or
something to be alarmed about. Also I am wanting to know what I
should be spraying, and when.

Thanks!


  #2   Report Post  
Old 24-08-2008, 04:00 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2006
Posts: 713
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

On Aug 24, 4:10�am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
Hi All,

� I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007. �The tree is about 6 years old I think he said.
(I had
actually been looking for this specific cultivar for several years)

� Anyway, I planted it according to the generally accepted planting
directions,
dug a big hole, watered it, mulched it, made sure the tree wasn't planted
too
deep and all of that. �This was around Oct 2007. �The tree needs a bit of
pruning, I decided to hold off on it for a year to make sure it would
survive
transplant shock. �The one bit of pruning I did do around May of this year
was the tree had 3 verticals competing to be the leader, I topped 2 of them
and the remaining one I nipped 2 of the top shoots to leave a single one as
the leader. �This single shoot grew about a foot this summer. �So far so
good.

� Now, here is the part I'm concerned about. �This spring (April) the tree
flowered, here are the pics of it:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree3.jpg

� Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. �The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

� Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. �The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. � The tree produced a total of 6 apples. �The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. �(tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago) �Here are the pics from that:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree4.jpg

The apples started dropping in early August, which is normal
for this cultivar. �However, now the tree seems to be beginning to
show fall colors, here's current pics:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree6.jpg

Now, I'm not particularly upset about the yield this year - if the
tree had produced a big crop of apples I would have pinched most
of them off very early since I wanted the tree to put it's energy into
establishing it's root system, not producing apples.

But what concerns me is that it -appeared- that most of the blossoms
pollenated and were well on their way to producing apples - then just
abruptly died off.

I have looked up the diseases of apple trees to see if there is a match
to any symptoms. �Blossom Wilt is one that might be a cause - but
it is supposed to shrivel fruits and damage leaves, and that did not happen.
There are no other symptoms.

Unfortunately as Transparent Yellow is (apparently, nowadays) not
commercially viable, nobody sells these apples anymore, and there is
little information out there other than old charts of when it is supposed to
ripen. �None of the nursuries in the area (including one of the largest
which claims itself as apple experts) have ever heard of this cultivar,
and most of them in any case are more interested in selling you a
"modern" cultivar with fruit that tastes like warm water, and has been
(apparently) genetically engineered to be
resistant to everything short of a nuclear explosion, I assume because
once they have your money and their door hits your ass on the way out,
they don't want to see you again - at least, not complaining about your
tree you bought from them.

I am hoping that someone with some of these who has some experience
might be able to tell me if what I'm seeing is perfectly normal, or
something to be alarmed about. �Also I am wanting to know what I
should be spraying, and when.

Thanks!


As far as I know all apple trees need a pollinator. And your tree is
diseased because it's living in a garbage dump... sheesh, what a slob!

  #3   Report Post  
Old 24-08-2008, 10:58 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2007
Posts: 74
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)


"Sheldon" wrote in message
...
On Aug 24, 4:10?am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
Hi All,

? I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree

in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby

and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007. ?The tree is about 6 years old I think he

said.
(I had
actually been looking for this specific cultivar for several years)

? Anyway, I planted it according to the generally accepted planting
directions,
dug a big hole, watered it, mulched it, made sure the tree wasn't planted
too
deep and all of that. ?This was around Oct 2007. ?The tree needs a bit of
pruning, I decided to hold off on it for a year to make sure it would
survive
transplant shock. ?The one bit of pruning I did do around May of this year
was the tree had 3 verticals competing to be the leader, I topped 2 of

them
and the remaining one I nipped 2 of the top shoots to leave a single one

as
the leader. ?This single shoot grew about a foot this summer. ?So far so
good.

? Now, here is the part I'm concerned about. ?This spring (April) the tree
flowered, here are the pics of it:


http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree3.jpg

? Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. ?The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

? Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. ?The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. ? The tree produced a total of 6 apples. ?The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. ?(tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago) ?Here are the pics from that:


http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree4.jpg

The apples started dropping in early August, which is normal
for this cultivar. ?However, now the tree seems to be beginning to
show fall colors, here's current pics:


http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree6.jpg

Now, I'm not particularly upset about the yield this year - if the
tree had produced a big crop of apples I would have pinched most
of them off very early since I wanted the tree to put it's energy into
establishing it's root system, not producing apples.

But what concerns me is that it -appeared- that most of the blossoms
pollenated and were well on their way to producing apples - then just
abruptly died off.

I have looked up the diseases of apple trees to see if there is a match
to any symptoms. ?Blossom Wilt is one that might be a cause - but
it is supposed to shrivel fruits and damage leaves, and that did not

happen.
There are no other symptoms.

Unfortunately as Transparent Yellow is (apparently, nowadays) not
commercially viable, nobody sells these apples anymore, and there is
little information out there other than old charts of when it is supposed

to
ripen. ?None of the nursuries in the area (including one of the largest
which claims itself as apple experts) have ever heard of this cultivar,
and most of them in any case are more interested in selling you a
"modern" cultivar with fruit that tastes like warm water, and has been
(apparently) genetically engineered to be
resistant to everything short of a nuclear explosion, I assume because
once they have your money and their door hits your ass on the way out,
they don't want to see you again - at least, not complaining about your
tree you bought from them.

I am hoping that someone with some of these who has some experience
might be able to tell me if what I'm seeing is perfectly normal, or
something to be alarmed about. ?Also I am wanting to know what I
should be spraying, and when.

Thanks!


As far as I know all apple trees need a pollinator.


As I mentioned, I have an Indian Summer crabapple tree that
is it's pollenator, and that tree produced a large number of
crabapples. As you said, all apple trees need a pollenator -
where did that crabapple tree get it's pollen from if not
from this tree? And if it got it from some 3rd tree in the area,
then why didn't this tree get it from that tree also?

And your tree is
diseased because it's living in a garbage dump... sheesh, what a slob!


It IS diseased? That is what I was asking. If your sure it is,
then what disease does it have?

Ted


  #4   Report Post  
Old 25-08-2008, 12:05 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 41
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

It could be (either, or, or some combination of) lack of good pollination
and/or the tree realizing that it didn't have enough roots left to invest
all that energy in apple production this year. If it was six years old at
transplant time, it lost a *lot* of roots. The roots recover at a growth
rate of about 18" per year. Overall the part of the tree below ground wants
to be roughly the same size as the part of the tree above ground, so it can
take several years for the roots to catch up on an older transplant like
this, and in the first year after transplant usually you do not get fruit
because the tree has to spend a lot of energy regrowing its root system.

Your tree doesn't look particularly diseased, but I'm not an expert on this.
It certainly looks less diseased than my two trees, which are producing a
lot more apples. I am also in zone 8 in Oregon (Willamette Valley). Mine
were 3-yo from the nursery, and this is now their second season in the
ground in my yard. The first season they flowered like crazy but dropped
them all before setting fruit. (Actually, there was one apple that had set
on one of the trees, but a small child thought it would be the perfect thing
to use as a missile, so it got picked when it was still only an inch in
diameter.) This second season they have set a lot of apples, despite having
chronic issues with leaves that get brown spots and turn yellow and fall
off. Apples are very closely related to roses, so I assume this is similar
or the same disease (black spot?) that does the same thing to all our rose
bushes every year. (A primary reason I have never been a fan of roses, and
we have already removed most of the ones the house came with and diversified
the flower garden.) Your pix showed a few leaves possibly suffering from the
same malady, but not nearly as many as on my trees. Since I don't like to
pour toxic chemicals all over my yard, I just let them be and will be happy
with however many apples they can produce in the face of this. There are
other apple trees in the neighborhood that are completely neglected and
apparently pretty disease-free, so I'm hoping that as mine become more
established and their roots catch up with their tops, they will have more
energy available to spend in fighting off diseases. That which doesn't kill
them only makes them stronger. I hope. (The squirrels are also getting a lot
of the crop too -- darn weed species! Oddly the apples seem to have
distracted them from the sunflowers this year, but I'd rather it was the
other way around.)

Utopia in Decay
http://home.comcast.net/~kevin.cherkauer/site

Kevin Cherkauer



"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree

in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby

and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007


....

Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. The tree produced a total of 6 apples. The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. (tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago)



  #5   Report Post  
Old 25-08-2008, 01:00 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

Also remember that the original or maybe old growth apple trees did not
produce heavy crops every year. The tree seemed to know (teleology(?)
speaking) that energy would be better spent in root food for storage as
starch. The apple trees now demand heavy crops every year. Maybe yours is
one of the good old ones!
I have often wondered what old growth forest or fields with apple trees
would be like. I guess they would be in Russia. I wonder what their true
companion plants are?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby
and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007. The tree is about 6 years old I think he
said.
(I had
actually been looking for this specific cultivar for several years)

Anyway, I planted it according to the generally accepted planting
directions,
dug a big hole, watered it, mulched it, made sure the tree wasn't planted
too
deep and all of that. This was around Oct 2007. The tree needs a bit of
pruning, I decided to hold off on it for a year to make sure it would
survive
transplant shock. The one bit of pruning I did do around May of this year
was the tree had 3 verticals competing to be the leader, I topped 2 of
them
and the remaining one I nipped 2 of the top shoots to leave a single one
as
the leader. This single shoot grew about a foot this summer. So far so
good.

Now, here is the part I'm concerned about. This spring (April) the tree
flowered, here are the pics of it:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree3.jpg

Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. The tree produced a total of 6 apples. The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. (tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago) Here are the pics from that:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree4.jpg

The apples started dropping in early August, which is normal
for this cultivar. However, now the tree seems to be beginning to
show fall colors, here's current pics:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree4.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree5.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree6.jpg

Now, I'm not particularly upset about the yield this year - if the
tree had produced a big crop of apples I would have pinched most
of them off very early since I wanted the tree to put it's energy into
establishing it's root system, not producing apples.

But what concerns me is that it -appeared- that most of the blossoms
pollenated and were well on their way to producing apples - then just
abruptly died off.

I have looked up the diseases of apple trees to see if there is a match
to any symptoms. Blossom Wilt is one that might be a cause - but
it is supposed to shrivel fruits and damage leaves, and that did not
happen.
There are no other symptoms.

Unfortunately as Transparent Yellow is (apparently, nowadays) not
commercially viable, nobody sells these apples anymore, and there is
little information out there other than old charts of when it is supposed
to
ripen. None of the nursuries in the area (including one of the largest
which claims itself as apple experts) have ever heard of this cultivar,
and most of them in any case are more interested in selling you a
"modern" cultivar with fruit that tastes like warm water, and has been
(apparently) genetically engineered to be
resistant to everything short of a nuclear explosion, I assume because
once they have your money and their door hits your ass on the way out,
they don't want to see you again - at least, not complaining about your
tree you bought from them.

I am hoping that someone with some of these who has some experience
might be able to tell me if what I'm seeing is perfectly normal, or
something to be alarmed about. Also I am wanting to know what I
should be spraying, and when.

Thanks!






  #6   Report Post  
Old 25-08-2008, 09:51 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2007
Posts: 74
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)


"Kevin Cherkauer" wrote in message
...
It could be (either, or, or some combination of) lack of good pollination
and/or the tree realizing that it didn't have enough roots left to invest
all that energy in apple production this year. If it was six years old at
transplant time, it lost a *lot* of roots. The roots recover at a growth
rate of about 18" per year. Overall the part of the tree below ground

wants
to be roughly the same size as the part of the tree above ground, so it

can
take several years for the roots to catch up on an older transplant like
this, and in the first year after transplant usually you do not get fruit
because the tree has to spend a lot of energy regrowing its root system.


Thanks! I hadn't considered that the root system might be the issue. I
watched the tree being dug up and there were several 5m roots that were
cut to get it up out of the ground. The guy I got it from assured me that
trees in Oregon grow like weeds and it wouldn't hurt it.

Your tree doesn't look particularly diseased, but I'm not an expert on

this.
It certainly looks less diseased than my two trees, which are producing a
lot more apples. I am also in zone 8 in Oregon (Willamette Valley). Mine
were 3-yo from the nursery, and this is now their second season in the
ground in my yard. The first season they flowered like crazy but dropped
them all before setting fruit. (Actually, there was one apple that had set
on one of the trees, but a small child thought it would be the perfect

thing
to use as a missile, so it got picked when it was still only an inch in
diameter.) This second season they have set a lot of apples, despite

having
chronic issues with leaves that get brown spots and turn yellow and fall
off. Apples are very closely related to roses, so I assume this is similar
or the same disease (black spot?) that does the same thing to all our rose
bushes every year. (A primary reason I have never been a fan of roses, and
we have already removed most of the ones the house came with and

diversified
the flower garden.)


When I was about 14 years old (quite a long time ago) a neighbor who
was really into roses helped me to grow and prune the 8 roses in my
parents front yard. That yard was basically barkdust and roses. I ended
up entering some of them in the Portland Rose Show that year and the
following year and ended up winning some ribbons. I remember Black
Spot as well as some of the other rose diseases. Roses are the type of
plant that you either spend a lot of time working on them or you just ignore
them and hope that occassionally you get a nice flower. But they don't
look good unless you give them constant attention. And they also don't
look good unless your constantly at them with the fungucide and the
pesticides. When I grew up and bought my own home I didn't put any
roses in.

Your pix showed a few leaves possibly suffering from the
same malady, but not nearly as many as on my trees. Since I don't like to
pour toxic chemicals all over my yard, I just let them be and will be

happy
with however many apples they can produce in the face of this. There are
other apple trees in the neighborhood that are completely neglected and
apparently pretty disease-free, so I'm hoping that as mine become more
established and their roots catch up with their tops, they will have more
energy available to spend in fighting off diseases. That which doesn't

kill
them only makes them stronger. I hope.


If I had my way I would have planted several apple trees in the front strip
between the sidewalk and the street. Unfortunately the City of Portland
got real ****y about people putting apple trees in that section and banned
fruit trees in that strip years ago. The only thing you can put in now is
ornamental trees. That's why I put the Indian crabapple in that strip.

Ted

Well in my case I'm really limited in what I can do with the yards. The
first
problem is both are small - the back is about 12 feet wide by 20 feet long,
and is on the north side of the house.


  #7   Report Post  
Old 25-08-2008, 11:40 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2006
Posts: 713
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

On Aug 24, 4:58�pm, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
As I mentioned, I have an Indian Summer crabapple tree that

is it's pollenator, and that tree produced a large number of
crabapples. �As you said, all apple trees need a pollenator -
where did that crabapple tree get it's pollen from if not
from this tree? �And if it got it from some 3rd tree in the area,
then why didn't this tree get it from that tree also?


Not all crabapple pollenates dessert apple well. Your crab apple
produces fruit because some crabapple are self pollenating. Your tree
produced some apples because most likely there is another apple tree
not too distant and one that's in blossom during the same period as
yours, but probably too distant to be an efficient pollenator, and
probably the wrong type of tree for your fruit to set well, so it will
drop. Check with a nurseryman to find out which type of apple tree is
recommended as a pollenator for yours, not all are compatible so don't
run out and buy just any old apple tree.

You need to do some research:
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agricultur...le-pollinators

And your tree is
diseased because it's living in a garbage dump... sheesh, what a slob!


It IS diseased? That is what I was asking. �If your sure it is,
then what disease does it have?



Mold/fungus/mildew... even though visible manifesting itself in the
leaves still the entire tree is affected because it's in the soil
too. Clean up all that rotting stuff on the ground at the base of
your tree, that entire area looks very shabby... and it's plain to see
that your soil is very poor, looks like mostly sand and yellow clay
plus who knows what toxins were previously dumped there, especilaly so
near a property line, certain pinhead neighbors are apt to toss
whatever over the fence (you might want to have your soil tested).
And why are all those weeds growing at the base of that poor tree,
they're stealing water and robbing what little nutrients are
present... I can tell your soil is poor/toxic because even those weeds
are struggling. You have a lot of housekeeping to do and at least
apply a goodly amount of fungicide to the entire area, drench the
soil... then keep that area clean and tidy.

  #8   Report Post  
Old 26-08-2008, 06:13 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Posts: 41
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

Ted,

Apparently we are not just in any old zone 8's in Oregon, but both in
Portland. But you sound like you could be a native, whereas I am a
transplant. I think I've been here long enough now though that my root
system has recovered. ;-)


"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
Thanks! I hadn't considered that the root system might be the issue. I
watched the tree being dug up and there were several 5m roots that were
cut to get it up out of the ground. The guy I got it from assured me that
trees in Oregon grow like weeds and it wouldn't hurt it.


They do grow like weeds, but even a weed will be set back by having that
much of its root system removed. The older the tree, the higher a percentage
of its roots are lost during transplant. It might take a few years to
recover 100%, as it will probably take several years to grow roots out five
meters again.

None of my fruit trees have produced more than a few token fruits in their
first year after transplant, even though they all did flower that first
year. Since you got some apples in the first year, hopefully you are getting
good pollination from somewhere, and next year you will get more fruit. Not
all varieties can pollinate each other though, and sometimes pollination is
only unidirectional (variety A can pollinate B, but B cannot pollinate A).


When I was about 14 years old (quite a long time ago) a neighbor who
was really into roses helped me to grow and prune the 8 roses in my
parents front yard. That yard was basically barkdust and roses. I ended
up entering some of them in the Portland Rose Show that year and the
following year and ended up winning some ribbons.


Congratulations!


I remember Black
Spot as well as some of the other rose diseases. Roses are the type of
plant that you either spend a lot of time working on them or you just

ignore
them and hope that occassionally you get a nice flower. But they don't
look good unless you give them constant attention. And they also don't
look good unless your constantly at them with the fungucide and the
pesticides.


Occasionally I find someone who has rose plants that are healthy without
chemical intervention, but this seems pretty rare. I've always thought they
have beautiful flowers but the plants themselves are just butt ugly. (They
are also closely related to blackberries, which are even butt uglier
plants.) The prior owner of our house was a nut for roses, so there were
about a dozen and a half of them in the yard. He used to chemicalize them to
fight the fungus, but we do not. Generally they look great in the spring,
then lose pretty close to 100% of their leaves to black spot during the
course of the summer, then get more leaves in the fall. During all this time
amazingly they still produce blooms -- sometimes quite a lot of them -- but
there is is really nothing worse looking, IMO, than a past-its-peak rose
blossom on the end of a dead-looking stalk with nothing else on it but
thorns.

This year one of the three remaining rose bushes we have not removed is
actually holding most of its leaves with very little disease, even now in
deepest August. Perhaps its immune system has finally caught up with the
program. Or perhaps it's just luck. Or the cool summer. Take your pick. My
impression is that roses have been bred so heavily for huge spectacular
blooms that pretty much everything else -- like a halfway decent immune
system -- has been stripped out of them through in-breeding.


Well in my case I'm really limited in what I can do with the yards. The
first
problem is both are small - the back is about 12 feet wide by 20 feet

long,
and is on the north side of the house.


I learned from a book on the "home orchard" that one can put up to four
semi-dwarf fruit trees in a single hole, in a square only 18" on a side. I
didn't try four, but I did put two plums in one hole and two apples in
another hole, where each pair was selected to be mutually cross-pollinating.
To be on the safe side, I also picked all varieties that are self-fruitful,
however supposedly such trees will produce more and better fruit if they are
cross-pollinated. This is a great way to pack in the multiple trees needed
for cross-pollination when you don't have a lot of space (and my yard is
similar in size to yours, although I am more blessed with sun). Another way
is to get those trees with branches of multiple different varieties all
grafted onto the same trunk, but then you are at risk of losing a variety if
a branch dies, and also as the tree grows further any new branches are going
to be whatever variety the trunk is, which may not be a desired one. So this
approach seems more limited to me, and the trees cost more as well.

Utopia in Decay
http://home.comcast.net/~kevin.cherkauer/site

Kevin Cherkauer


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Old 26-08-2008, 07:07 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? - Att: Ted


"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

It IS diseased? That is what I was asking. If your sure it is,
then what disease does it have?


Ted, these garden groups are infested with very rude people and organic
fanatics. All the regular people, the nice people who use to be here and
were helpful to everyone are gone. Apparently driven off by this small group
of fanatics. You would be better off taking a few leaves (in a plastic
baggie) and your questions to your nearest Agricultural Extension center.
They will give you real truthful information without insulting you and
pushing organic "cures" on you, blaming every problem everyone has on
"poisons." They will give you advice on both organic products and chemical
products. Some chemical products are no better than the organic products
they recommend here. I wish I could help you with your apple tree problem
but I don't grow apples. Your Ag. Agent will tell you what type are adapted
to your climate and answer your other questions without insulting you and
blaming everything on "poisons."

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Old 26-08-2008, 04:13 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Posts: 713
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? - Att: Ted

On Aug 26, 1:07�am, "Marie Dodge" wrote:
"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message

...



It IS diseased? That is what I was asking. �If your sure it is,
then what disease does it have?


Ted, these garden groups are infested with very rude people and organic
fanatics. All the regular people, the nice people who use to be here and
were helpful to everyone are gone. Apparently driven off by this small group
of fanatics. �You would be better off taking a few leaves (in a plastic
baggie) and your questions to �your nearest Agricultural Extension center.
They will give you real truthful information without insulting you and
pushing organic "cures" on you, blaming every problem everyone has on
"poisons." � They will give you advice on both organic products and chemical
products. Some chemical products are no better than the organic products
they recommend here. �I wish I could help you with your apple tree problem
but I don't grow apples. �


Since you've nothing useful to offer why don't you STFU. All you're
doing is putting folks down and offering no help at all... get lost.


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Old 26-08-2008, 05:20 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Posts: 30
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? - Att: Ted

Also, you might check out the Home Orchard Society:
http://www.homeorchardsociety.org/aboutus/


--

Visit
www.insectgraphics.com for all your insect gift needs


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Old 27-08-2008, 07:06 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Posts: 331
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? - Att: Ted


"Sheldon" wrote in message
...

Since you've nothing useful to offer why don't you STFU. All you're
doing is putting folks down and offering no help at all... get lost

The help I offer is the "TRUTH." I'm not pushing "miracle cures" like some
of you.
Maybe you should get lost if you can't handle the truth since this is a
Public Forum.

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Old 27-08-2008, 07:09 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Posts: 331
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? - Att: Ted


"Rick" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:13:42 -0700 (PDT), Sheldon
wrote:

Since you've nothing useful to offer why don't you STFU. All you're
doing is putting folks down and offering no help at all... get lost.


She's right. You're wrong. But then you are ALWAYS wrong. What a
maroon.



There seems to be no middle ground on these NGs. If you don't buy into the
organic BS 100% they try and run you off. And God help anyone with the
nerve to tell them their organic products are often as worthless as many of
the chemicals out there these days. Insects, spiders and bugs are gaining
tolerance to more products every day. This group was much better balanced
in the past.

  #14   Report Post  
Old 27-08-2008, 02:51 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Posts: 74
Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)


"Sheldon" wrote in message
...
On Aug 24, 4:58?pm, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
As I mentioned, I have an Indian Summer crabapple tree that

is it's pollenator, and that tree produced a large number of
crabapples. ?As you said, all apple trees need a pollenator -
where did that crabapple tree get it's pollen from if not
from this tree? ?And if it got it from some 3rd tree in the area,
then why didn't this tree get it from that tree also?


Not all crabapple pollenates dessert apple well.


Yellow Transparent is a cooking apple.

Your crab apple
produces fruit because some crabapple are self pollenating. Your tree
produced some apples because most likely there is another apple tree
not too distant and one that's in blossom during the same period as
yours, but probably too distant to be an efficient pollenator, and
probably the wrong type of tree for your fruit to set well, so it will
drop. Check with a nurseryman to find out which type of apple tree is
recommended as a pollenator for yours, not all are compatible so don't
run out and buy just any old apple tree.


There are no real nurserymen left in my city - none that is who are
available to any customer, that is. I already tried that route a couple
years ago. As I mentioned, none had heard of the particular cultivar.
Everyone I talked to only wanted to sell me a Gala apple tree or some
such variety that I can buy from the supermarket - why even bother
planting one of those when every corner market that sells apples
already has tons of those apples.

My read of the local retail nurseries is that they follow fads and fashions,
and know nothing about plants anymore. Half the retail nurseries are
owned by chains in the first place. And all of them carry the same
varieties. Right now the native plants are a big fad so they carry
those. But I could go from nursery to nursery writing down varieties
and I would end up with a list of perhaps a grand total of 15 different
apple varieties. And every one of those 15 would be of an apple
available in the supermarket. Most people buy fruit trees that produce
fruits they are already used to buying and eating from the supermarket.
So that avenue is as they say a dry hole. There is more info online
such as the link you posted below.

You need to do some research:
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agricultur...es/crabapple-p

ollinators

I did already. In fact I emailed several professional apple experts years
ago before getting the tree, including the local extension agent - who had
never heard of that cultivar and he e-mailed yet another apple expert in the
business, and I talked with him on the phone as well. The only thing useful
that this turned up was that I should try to get a pollenator because the
most
common apple varieties bloom later and bear fruit later. However nobody
could give me a variety of pollenator. So I did the only logical thing
possible,
which was to wait until the tree bloomed, then go around to all the
nurseries
looking for an apple tree variety that was blooming at the same time. I
needed a crabapple because that is the only type of apple tree I can plant
on
my property in the space I have available (ie: the front street strip
between
the road and the sidewalk) and the city will not allow true apple trees in
that strip, only crabapples - and even then I had to get a variance on the
permit for the Indian Summer crabapple since it wasn't on the city's list of
allowable trees. No doubt in another 5 years the eco-freaks will have
succeeded in exorcising even the few crabapples from the list of allowable
street trees and there will only be native trees allowed.

Incidentally, Indian Summer came from the "misc tree" area of Home
Depot. Home Depot, unlike the retail nurseries, does not stock regular
varieties of trees. Instead they call up the tree growers who supply
the retail nurseries and buy up whatever the growers happen to have
left that the retail nurseries didn't buy, then they sell them cheap to
people who just want "a pretty tree". None of the retail nurseries in
the area had crabapples in bloom when I wanted them. I basically
just went around to every place that sold trees until I found that one.

I contacted several dozen "grower" nurseries nationally, looking for this
cultivar.
None carried it. One nursery back east claimed to carry it in a non-grafted
native root tree. Good luck with that. A few wholesale nurseries in Canada
also claimed to carry it. Do you want a description of all the crap you
have to go through to take a tree across the border from Canada
to the US and how expensive it is? And this isn't even beginning to
touch the nonsense with minimum orders and all of that which the
wholesale nurseries have.

This isn't a cultivar that is an espically significant historical cultivar,
so
the various societies that care about saving "heirloom" cultivars are no
help either. Yellow Transparent is equivalent to a 1984 Chevy Celebrity.
During their day millions were made. But they were always a workhorse
and at this time they have not been gone for long enough for anyone to
notice. No doubt in 50 years there will be "heirloom apple tree preservers"
out there tearing their hair out wondering why nobody bothered saving
a specimen of yellow transparent, just as there will be old car buffs
tearing their hair out wondering why nobody bothered saving 1984
Chevy Celebrities. But right now there are not - because most are like
you who seem to think that it's an ordinary enough tree that info should
be readily available.

30 years ago this cultivar had a limited success as a commercial apple.
What I need to find is some old retired geezer farmer who at that time
had an orchard with some of these in it, and who remembers all about
their habits and how to make them happy and how to get them to
yield well. I've had no luck with that and in fact I've only come across
one orchard within a 50 mile radius that has a few of these trees, and
it's a hobby orchard and the guy that owns it just did the old trick of
40 years ago he planted 20 apple trees, and all 20 are completely different
cultivars, and all planted in the same orchard within 25 feet of each
other - so of course, he has no clue what is pollenating what.

The entire thing is an experiment. It may not work. But the alternative
is sitting on my butt doing nothing, being ****ed at the dumb supermarkets
who only want to carry something like 5 apple varieties, all of which
have only been bred to have 10 month shelf lives and skins made out
of what appears to be red stainless steel - so they can be shipped
on the cheapest freight carrier from Mexico and still be salable.

And your tree is
diseased because it's living in a garbage dump... sheesh, what a slob!


It IS diseased? That is what I was asking. ?If your sure it is,
then what disease does it have?



Mold/fungus/mildew... even though visible manifesting itself in the
leaves still the entire tree is affected because it's in the soil
too. Clean up all that rotting stuff on the ground at the base of
your tree, that entire area looks very shabby


There is no rotting stuff because I mow that area a couple times
a year. There is a compost pile in the background that is mostly
layers of grass clippings and pulled weeds. I do not mow weekly
or even monthly. Often the grass goes to seed. I also do not
water the lawn, once the spring rains stop the lawn goes brown.

We have several bad vine type weeds that every fall I pull as
much as I can out. But they are in the fence and in the neighbors
yard and come through the fence and it is pointless to try to
eradicate it as long as the neighbor on the other side of the fence
does nothing.

... and it's plain to see
that your soil is very poor, looks like mostly sand and yellow clay


It is mostly clay.

plus who knows what toxins were previously dumped there, especilaly so
near a property line, certain pinhead neighbors are apt to toss
whatever over the fence (you might want to have your soil tested).


The house was built in 1911 and before that the entire area was a
brickyard. It is what it is.

And why are all those weeds growing at the base of that poor tree,
they're stealing water and robbing what little nutrients are
present...


It is only grass growing within a 2 foot radius of the tree base. And
of course it likes to grow there since I water the tree there. I could
pull it but the tree is in a lawn and the grass would just come back in.
I do not let the weed from the fence encroach on the tree.

In the wild I have observed trees in the forest having no problems
growing in a meadow of grass. I thus am unlikely to be convinced
that grass at the base is a problem.

I can tell your soil is poor/toxic because even those weeds
are struggling.


The lawn beyond the tree area, which is a mix of grass and
weeds, is struggling because I don't water it.

You have a lot of housekeeping to do and at least
apply a goodly amount of fungicide to the entire area, drench the
soil... then keep that area clean and tidy.


Thanks. I don't mind the delivery if you can give me something useful.

Ted


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Old 27-08-2008, 03:27 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Default Is My Apple Tree Sick? (or how to take better care of it)

In article ,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
Hi Ted!

Look at http://www.tomsofmaine.com/apple/heirloom/default.asp

Yup same guy that makes toothpaste.

Bill

--
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