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Old 04-05-2009, 08:43 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Lest we forget

In article ,
Gary Woods wrote:

"FarmI" [email protected] be given wrote:

The US needs a Labor Day rather than a
Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed
forever?


No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and
especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay more
than they have to.
The fact remains that the customer should be aware of the situation and not
take the mean-spirited "They're already getting paid to do this; I'm not
giving them any more" approach. In some places a gratuity is added to the
bill up front. Not common in the U.S. except for large groups.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G


If you know, going-in, that the wait-staff will expect a tip, and you go
in anyway, what are you saying but, "OK, I agree to the terms of
service". Saying that, the range of tips that I have left, range from
$50 to 1 cent (I didn't want him to think that I forgot). If you receive
less than satisfactory service, leave a less than satisfactory tip, and
conversely, if you have enjoyed your service, reward accordingly. They
could have put you next to the toilets.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

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Old 04-05-2009, 01:19 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Lest we forget

Billy wrote in

t.au:

We are given a lollypop and the pillage continues. HELLO!


Billy, he's had just over 3 *months* and the Republicans in Congress
are fighting him tooth & nail. what the hell do you think *anyone*
can get done in 3 months, especially considering the plate of manure
he was handed (2 useless, unwinnable wars, an economy in the tank,
and a really greedy Congress with both parties in bed with whoever
pays most- big Ag, big Pharma, etc).
give the guy some working room will you. he's not the Wizard of Oz.
lee
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Old 04-05-2009, 03:17 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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"Gary Woods" wrote in message

No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and
especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay
more than they have to.


:-)) Excuses excuses. Employers will use them all the time - just a
variation on a theme. When it was boom times the excuse was that if they
paid staff more it would eat into their competive advantage (and often that
was accompanied by "and cause jobs to be driven offshore". I know the
latter doesn't apply to the restaurant trade but I'll bet you've heard it.)

In some places a gratuity is added to the
bill up front.


In reality, that sounds very like the business is eefectively charging the
full cost of the service. That to me is a more effective way of paying the
staff what they should be paid for the work they do.


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Old 04-05-2009, 03:54 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Charlie wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 May 2009 16:19:18 +1000, "FarmI" [email protected] be given
wrote:

Charlie wrote in message
On Sun, 3 May 2009 14:06:09 +1000, "FarmI" [email protected] be given
wrote:


Your response makes me think even more strongly that a Labor Day is more
appropriate than a Liberty Day.

And here we arguing differing customs in two different countries, eh?
Let's be careful.


Charlie you never, ever disappoint me :-))

I knew you'd figure it out. :-))


Yeah sure, after I went all amerocentric and temporarily lost my
focus...


:-))

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but give me enough time and I
might! ;-)


:-))))))


http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g1...Etiquette.html

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g2...Etiquette.html


Is the information in this site correct? That the minimum wage is
nearly double in oz what it is in the US?


Dunno, but I know I nearly fell of my chair after 9/11 when I read years
ago
in another ng that the new people employed to do security at US airports
were being paid $US3/hour. That is so low that no-one should be expected
to
work for that, ever.

Pay rates depend on the job of course but if there is no Award that covers
the job then the minmum you can be paid by law is $14.31/hour which works
out to $10.48 in your money. Traditionally we don't have many people
who'd
be on minimum wages.



What is an Award?


Ah! Quick and dirty definition: An Award is an agreement that includes
conditons of service (annual leave, Leave loadings, sick leave, Long Service
Leave, hours of work, dispute resolution mechanisms, rates of pay and such
like) and is negotiated between the employer and the union with coverage for
that industry (in the case of a big employer) or, in the case of small
businesses it will be negotiated between the unions and the employers
organisation that covers those types of businesses. Awards are registered
with either a State government or the Federal Government and are legally
binding. So an employer who doesn't pay the amount of salary that staff are
entitled to, the employer will be taken to court by the government, etc,
right across the things covered in the Award.

Tipping certainly isn't common here other than at good restaurants. The
one
we went to the other day is not the sort of place where you'd normal tip
anytime.


What about benefits? How
many servers in the US are elible for or receive benefits? Damn few.


Ummm not sure what you are asking here.


Used to be, less common now with the tits-upedness of the economy, a
good job came with company paid health insurance and oftimes a pension
plan of sort. Few years back, during the height of unionbusting and
such, since the Reagan years in particular, union busting and very
active antiunion methods have been employed.


Ah! Here people pay their own health coverage or if they don't choose to do
so, they are covered by a Federal government scheme called Medicare.

Traditionally here the sort of benefits staff could commonly expect to get
are a minimum of 3 weeks annual leave (but increasingly commonly, 4 weeks),
9% of salary paid by the employer to superannuation, somewhere between 1-2
weeks sick leave on full pay/year (sometimes also 1-2 weeks half pay sick
leave/year) and 1-3 months Long Service Leave on full pay after 10 years
service. These things only apply to full time staff - if you are a worker
employed casually, you generally get a 10-20% higher hourly rate of pay
because you don't get leave of any sort (except in some case such as the job
I have, we get Long Service leave after 10 years or in our case and other
older workers, we get pro rata Long Service leave if we resign after 2
years) - you still get supperannuation paid by the employer as a casual.



Charlie I'd never bust your balls. I might give them a little poke like I
have in this series of posts though.


Hmmm...that must have been what caused me to be.....testy.


:-)) Yes I suspected as much, even though I didn't set out to poke your
goolies at all.

or someone who stands for fairp(l)ay you better
consider the wage differences, if I read them correctly.


Yes. That is why you workers in the US need a Labor day along with all
that
implies. You are being screwed and that appalls me.


Hell yeah we are, and when the unemployment rate is at least fifteen
percent (ignore the official gummint fudged figures, actual is double
the reporting) there are plent of hungry who don't care about
unionization.


Indeed. Our unemployment rate is being reported as being 7% but then they
shove some workers off into other categories of what you'd call welfare so
the rate is hidden.

What server is going to give more than minimal service to someone who
is not going to tip or comes across with the attitude you describe, in
the US? I wouldn't and I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't either.


Nope. I'd be out there joining a union and fighting for the rights of
workers in your situation. I've been engaged in a lot of union stouches on
both sides of the fence, as a negotiator on behalf of management and as a
negotiator on behalf of workers.


Union organization is a rough go. Been there, and been involved in
the organization, at one job I had. We pulled it off, but it was a
hell of a fight and then a continual fight.


:-)) Yep. I've got the Tee shirt too.

My place of work has been undergoing a process of negotiating for a new
agreement and although I wasn't on the team this time round, I threw a
total wobbly at a recent managment staff meeting. The dopy *******s who
were representing staff had let a clause through to the final draft because
they didn't understand what it meant. I asked management for an explanation
and hit the roof when they confirmed what I'd thought.

Management was trying to introduce a clause into our new agreement that was
immoral and unconscionable. And believe me, me chucking a wobbly is NOT a
pretty sight. I told them they were trying to perpetrate a fraud, that
they'd only try to use that clause once and after that they'd be out there
doing our jobs themselves because they'd suddenly find that all casual staff
were "unavailable" on a particular working day - being casual we can choose
not to come in because thay have no means of compelling us to do so.
They've now changed the clause.

You rightly observe that many americans are rude towards aussies


Nope, I didn't observe that.


My mistake.

and I
observe that when in another's country you observe local and national
customs in order that you don't appear a ****ing dick.

Tell your husband to consult a travel guide.


Waste of time Charlie. He may have ben highly competent at his job before
he
retired but you wouldn't let him out alone if you had any sense. In
Chicago
he asked a black woman how to get somewhere and he and another white
middle
class white Australian Honkie (is that the term?) went the way she'd go.
They ended up on a train where they were the only white faces and then got
off the train in what was a black slum where they were the only white
faces
in sight. Even I had trouble believing he'd be so silly but you should
hear
what an American friend who lives in New York says about it.


I don't give a fat
baby's ass how you do or don't tip in your local, but don't have the
arrogance to assume that your attitude and custom towards this issue
is the ****all end of the matter.


Huh? Now you've dropped into a vernacular that I don't understand at all.


Just as well, as I was being a bit angry and....testy, after getting
me nuts poked and missing the point a bit.


I understood that there was testiness there but I just couldn't translate it
into a form of English that I can understand. Just as well perhaps? ;-)


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Old 04-05-2009, 04:10 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Lest we forget

"FarmI" [email protected] be given wrote:


Ah! Quick and dirty definition: An Award is an agreement that includes
conditons of service (annual leave, Leave loadings, sick leave, Long Service
Leave, hours of work, dispute resolution mechanisms, rates of pay and such
like)


We'd just call that a Union Contract. And yes, companies here too try to
slip in apparently harmless clauses that can be used to their advantage.
The labor climate here in the U.S. the past some years is such that many
such contracts are pretty toothless.
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G


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Old 04-05-2009, 04:34 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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"Gary Woods" wrote in message
Charlie wrote:


Pete Seeger: The Power of Song


I watched this last night on our local PBS station; Pete lives just down
the Hudson river a ways, (snip) Yeah, old Pete is getting on; he
only entertained for 45 minutes that day.


Nice to hear that he's still alive and can manage that amount of time. he
must be very old by now.


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Old 04-05-2009, 04:44 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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"FarmI" [email protected] be given wrote:

Nice to hear that he's still alive and can manage that amount of time. he
must be very old by now.


Should have mentioned- Yesterday, 5/4, was Pete Seeger's 90th birthday. He
was at a celebration at Madison Square Garden in New York City for it; I'm
sure video will follow.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
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Old 04-05-2009, 04:49 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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"Gary Woods" wrote in message
"FarmI" [email protected] be given wrote:

Nice to hear that he's still alive and can manage that amount of time. he
must be very old by now.


Should have mentioned- Yesterday, 5/4, was Pete Seeger's 90th birthday.


Wow. And still performing. What a legend.

He
was at a celebration at Madison Square Garden in New York City for it; I'm
sure video will follow.


:-)) Wouldn't that be a DVD these days? Or should that be a 'blue ray'
something or other (says she not knowing what the hell 'blue ray' means
anyway)


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Old 04-05-2009, 04:50 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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people in the rest of the world where labor and management have something of mutual
respect have absolutely no idea of the hatred American business has for unions. My
father organized unions and I live in the area where union organizers were gunned
down. businesses will hire companies that specialize in preventing or breaking
unions and spend themselves into bankruptcy before they will deal with a union. they
will shut their business down before dealing with a union.

I had a temp job one summer and watched this process first hand. There were only 8
women (they would never hire a man) who did sterility testing (some wanted to join a
union). Because I was hired to write the procedural manuals he felt free to spew his
anti-union venom around me. It was an education!

What is particularly vicious is the banks are using taxpayer bailout money to lobby
congress against the latest attempt to level the playing field for unions, the "card
check" bill. I have a young friend raised by those of the corporate mentality and so
terrified of "others" that they would not think of leaving their pure white
suburban/rural village to come into our multi-racialethnic city for any reason
what-so-ever. She lives in a mental straight jacket and is only gradually emerging
in tiny steps. It is truly pathetic to see how limited her life is especially since
she is otherwise a highly intelligent and engaging person.

Thankfully, this new young next generation raised on the internet has been exposed to
a view of the world other than their parents terror and hatred of anybody and
anything different than themselves, and seems to be embracing a social philosophy of
inclusiveness.

Ingrid
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Old 04-05-2009, 05:57 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

t.au:

We are given a lollypop and the pillage continues. HELLO!


Billy, he's had just over 3 *months* and the Republicans in Congress
are fighting him tooth & nail. what the hell do you think *anyone*
can get done in 3 months, especially considering the plate of manure
he was handed (2 useless, unwinnable wars, an economy in the tank,
and a really greedy Congress with both parties in bed with whoever
pays most- big Ag, big Pharma, etc).
give the guy some working room will you. he's not the Wizard of Oz.
lee


He could decline Presidential Privilege. He made torture illegal for the
Army. He could have done the same thing to the C.I.A. He could allow,
not encourage, allow a legal review of the previous administration
actions. We have stopped paying the Sunni militias to stand down (just
in time for the elections) and violence is on the rise again in Iraq.
Afghanistan is a nightmare that is just starting to unfold. Every
innocent person that our troops, or "drones", kill gives rise to more
people who want vengeance against the western powers. Obama said that he
would bring the wars to an end and now we are positioned to have 50,000
combat troops in Iraq indefinitely (no mention of the 150,000
mercenaries that we have there) and he is ramping up the war in
Afghanistan.

If we wanted peace, we could have it on the cheap (comparatively) by not
involving ourselves in Iraqi politics (but then, they are our own,
aren't they?) and just build water treatment plants, and power
generation stations (infrastructure). Then we would be seen as a
liberators and not occupiers. We had a chance to say that the errors of
the past, died with the last administration. If we continue the errors,
suppression of oil producing countries (and countries where we want to
place oil pipelines) will be seen as a "set" element of American foreign
policy.

We have a chance for a new beginning, people want to think that Obama is
a good man. We are "offered" intelligent, thoughtful changes in energy
production to improved relations with Cuba, just about everything except
for the pillaging of the national wealth and reputation. Instead of a
government of, by and for the people, the government seems poised to
suppress dissent.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html


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Old 06-05-2009, 09:16 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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wrote in message

people in the rest of the world where labor and management have something
of mutual
respect have absolutely no idea of the hatred American business has for
unions.


That is a parochial statment.

But then of course no-one outside the US would have ever heard of Jimmy
Hoffa would they?


Thankfully, this new young next generation raised on the internet has been
exposed to
a view of the world other than their parents terror and hatred of anybody
and
anything different than themselves, and seems to be embracing a social
philosophy of
inclusiveness.


I suspect you are being overly optimistic.


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Old 06-05-2009, 09:25 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Charlie wrote in message
On Mon, 4 May 2009 23:54:11 +1000, "FarmI" [email protected] be given


"Truth springs from argument amongst friends."

I count myself fortunate to have misunderstandings and arguments with
you.

Thanks for the continuing education, Fran.


Gosh. That's stopped me in my tracks as it's far more of a compliment than
I deserve.

Thank you Charlie, I feel quite humbled.


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Old 07-05-2009, 08:18 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Charlie wrote in message
On Wed, 6 May 2009 17:25:01 +1000, "FarmI" [email protected] be given
wrote:


Thank you Charlie, I feel quite humbled.



Well now, old china, I guess we're even. :-)


LOL. I didn't know I was supposed to be keeping a score.......


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Old 09-05-2009, 06:07 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Charlie wrote in message

Lovey yelled out to my manhole and had me turn
on the telly where they were showing a fruit called Chocolate Pudding
Fruit...looking it up on-the-line it was called Black Sapote.

You had it or have it? It sounds delightful.


Never eaten it but read about it lots of times. It needs far more warmth
than where I live. I have trouble keeping a lemon tree alive outside so
Sapote is out for me.


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Old 09-05-2009, 01:54 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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"FarmI" wrote:
Charlie wrote:

Lovey yelled out to my manhole and had me turn
on the telly where they were showing a fruit called Chocolate Pudding
Fruit...looking it up on-the-line it was called Black Sapote.

You had it or have it? It sounds delightful.


Never eaten it but read about it lots of times. It needs far more warmth
than where I live. I have trouble keeping a lemon tree alive outside so
Sapote is out for me.

When I lived in Belize the various types of sapote were very popular ice
cream flavors. Sapote trees should grow wherever citrus grows. Many
tropical fruits do not ship well but Hispanic markets often sell a variety
frozen and as beverages.
http://www.thefruitpages.com/chocolatefruit.shtml






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