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Lest we forget
May 1, 1886
The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot May Day parade and strikes In October 1884, a convention held by the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions unanimously set May 1, 1886, as the date by which the eight-hour work day would become standard.[10] When May 1, 1886 approached, American labor unions prepared for a general strike in support of the eight-hour day.[11] On Saturday, May 1, rallies were held throughout the United States. There were an estimated 10,000 demonstrators in New York[12] and 11,000 in Detroit.[13] In Milwaukee, Wisconsin some 10,000 workers turned out.[13] The movement's center was in Chicago, where an estimated 40,000 workers went on strike.[14] Albert Parsons was an anarchist and founder of the International Working People's Association (IWPA). Parsons, with his wife Lucy and their children, led a march of 80,000 people down Michigan Avenue.[14] Another 10,000 men employed in the lumber yards held a separate march in Chicago.[15] Estimates of the total number of striking American workers range from 300,000[14] to half a million.[15] The first flier calling for a rally in the Haymarket on May 4. The revised flier for the rally. The words Workingmen Arm Yourselves and Appear in Full Force! have been removed. On May 3, striking workers in Chicago met near the McCormick Harvesting Machine Co. plant. Union molders at the plant had been locked out since early February and the predominantly Irish-American workers at McCormick had come under attack from Pinkerton guards during an earlier strike action in 1885. This event, along with the eight-hour militancy of McCormick workers, had gained the strikers some respect and notoriety around the city. By the time of the 1886 general strike, strikebreakers entering the McCormick plant were under protection from a garrison of 400 police officers. Although half of the replacement workers defected to the general strike on May 1, McCormick workers continued to harass "scabs" who crossed the picket lines. Speaking to a rally outside the plant on May 3, August Spies advised the striking workers to "hold together, to stand by their union, or they would not succeed."[16] Well-planned and coordinated, the general strike to this point had remained largely nonviolent. When the end-of-the-workday bell sounded, however, a group of workers surged to the gates to confront the strikebreakers. Despite calls by Spies for the workers to remain calm, gunfire erupted as police fired on the crowd. In the end, two McCormick workers were killed (although some newspaper accounts said there were six fatalities).[17] Spies would later testify, "I was very indignant. I knew from experience of the past that this butchering of people was done for the express purpose of defeating the eight-hour movement."[16] Outraged by this act of police violence, local anarchists quickly printed and distributed fliers calling for a rally the following day at Haymarket Square (also called the Haymarket), which at the time was a bustling commercial center near the corner of Randolph Street and Des Plaines Street. These fliers, which were printed in both German and English, alleged police had murdered the strikers on behalf of business interests and urged workers to seek justice. The first batch of fliers contain the words Workingmen Arm Yourselves and Appear in Full Force! When Spies saw the line, he said he wouldn't speak at the rally unless the words were removed from the flier. All but a few hundred of the fliers were destroyed, and new fliers were printed without the offending words.[18] More than 20,000 copies of the revised flier were distributed.[19] ------ Progress always comes at the cost of a struggle. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
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Lest we forget
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy wrote: May 1, 1886 The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot May Day parade and strikes You big dope......didn't you know that this was replaced by Loyalty Day? What are ya' some sorta damned commie pinko, huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for the recognition of the heritage of American freedom. The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3] and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was perceived as communist. Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S. communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is not commonly observed. It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958 (Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law, President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first official observance of Loyalty Day. [6] In 2007 President George W. Bush issued an official proclamation of the May 1, 2007 Loyalty Day in accordance with the 1958 Congressional declaration,[7] as have many of his predecessors: * Bill Clinton, proclamation 6556 (May 1, 1993) [8] * George H. W. Bush, proclamation 5962 (April 28, 1989) [9] * Ronald Reagan, proclamation 4836 (April 14, 1981) [10] * Jimmy Carter, proclamation 4493 (March 23, 1977) [11] * Gerald Ford, proclamation 4354 (March 4, 1975) [12] * John F. Kennedy, proclamation 3528 (April 18, 1963) [13] As did our newest prez.... http://polfeeds.com/item/Proclamatio...day-Regarding- Loyalty-Day Eff 'em all. This isn't about an -ism. It's about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Charlie "Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." ------- Eugene V. Debs: Freedom is a constant struggle. It was purchased with the precious blood of men and women, like you and I, dreaming of a better day for all our children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect. Write your Representatives to vote no on HR 875 http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-s...-by-Linn-Cohen -Cole-090314-67.html I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave. - H. L. Mencken -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
On May 2, 1:07*am, Billy wrote:
In article , Charlie wrote: On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy wrote: May 1, 1886 The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot May Day parade and strikes You big dope......didn't you know that this was replaced by Loyalty Day? *What are ya' some sorta damned commie pinko, huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for the recognition of the heritage of American freedom. The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3] and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was perceived as communist. Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S. communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is not commonly observed. It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958 (Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law, President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first official observance of Loyalty Day. [6] In 2007 President George W. Bush issued an official proclamation of the May 1, 2007 Loyalty Day in accordance with the 1958 Congressional declaration,[7] as have many of his predecessors: * * * Bill Clinton, proclamation 6556 (May 1, 1993) [8] * * * George H. W. Bush, proclamation 5962 (April 28, 1989) [9] * * * Ronald Reagan, proclamation 4836 (April 14, 1981) [10] * * * Jimmy Carter, proclamation 4493 (March 23, 1977) [11] * * * Gerald Ford, proclamation 4354 (March 4, 1975) [12] * * * John F. Kennedy, proclamation 3528 (April 18, 1963) [13] As did our newest prez.... http://polfeeds.com/item/Proclamatio...sident-Today-R... Loyalty-Day Eff 'em all. This isn't about an -ism. It's about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Charlie "Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." * * * * * * * * * ------- * Eugene V. Debs: Freedom is a constant struggle. It was purchased with the precious blood of men and women, like you and I, dreaming of a better day for all our children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect. Write your Representatives to vote no on HR 875http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-solemn-walk-through-HR-8-by-Linn-C... -Cole-090314-67.html I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. *I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. *I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave. * * * - H. L. Mencken -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." *- Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect. It took me a long time to realize that. I ended up working at the same fast food place twice. In the beginning, all I saw was big corp. USA exploiting all the little people to make a profit. I would work for them because I had no other easy choice, but I wasn't going to try very hard. After about the first year, I quit to help some friends start up a retail shop and e-commerce site. The store only lasted about a year before the investor pulled the plug, so I started my own internet store for a while. This is actually possible with almost no initial capital investment, which was what I had at the time. Running my own business, even just for a little while, showed my exactly how much work has to go into it. The level of orders always seemed to match the amount of work I was putting into the website. That was the smallest and only fun part of it. After that, there was purchasing, shipping, customer service, inventory, accounting, taxes (easy if the accounting is done), &c. It was a fun experiment, but I eventually decided to go get my fast food job back. I still didn't care much for the company, but I felt I should give that job everything I had either way. I was the one putting myself into that situation. The most noticeable change was in my attitude toward the customers. I actually CARED about them, before I had been blaming them for my terrible situation, when I was the one to blame. The place did eventually start making me crazy, but then I ran into a really cool bum job at school, which would pay almost as much. Then not long after that, my wife and I had a baby, so I had to quit messing around to go find a job that would pay a living wage. There is a book I had read before all of this called The Hacker Ethic. http://www.amazon.com/Hacker-Ethic-P.../dp/0375505660 The author talks about the Hacker Ethic and compares it to the Protestant work ethic. This book really got me to think about my own reasons for working. I had never heard the term "work ethic" before reading this book. There were a number of other influences during this time, but it would take some trying to remember all the details. I still don't think too highly of that unnamed fast food chain. I feel that any profitable company should be paying its workers a living wage, at the very least. There are a lot of people who have no choice but to work long hours at a job which doesn't pay them enough to feed, clothe, and house themselves and their families. To turn a profit from their situation, I feel, is exploitation. At the same time, this would be a great improvement for many people. |
Lest we forget
In article
, Mycosimian wrote: On May 2, 1:07*am, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy wrote: May 1, 1886 The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot May Day parade and strikes You big dope......didn't you know that this was replaced by Loyalty Day? *What are ya' some sorta damned commie pinko, huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for the recognition of the heritage of American freedom. The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3] and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was perceived as communist. Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S. communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is not commonly observed. It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958 (Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law, President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first official observance of Loyalty Day. [6] In 2007 President George W. Bush issued an official proclamation of the May 1, 2007 Loyalty Day in accordance with the 1958 Congressional declaration,[7] as have many of his predecessors: * * * Bill Clinton, proclamation 6556 (May 1, 1993) [8] * * * George H. W. Bush, proclamation 5962 (April 28, 1989) [9] * * * Ronald Reagan, proclamation 4836 (April 14, 1981) [10] * * * Jimmy Carter, proclamation 4493 (March 23, 1977) [11] * * * Gerald Ford, proclamation 4354 (March 4, 1975) [12] * * * John F. Kennedy, proclamation 3528 (April 18, 1963) [13] As did our newest prez.... http://polfeeds.com/item/Proclamatio...sident-Today-R... Loyalty-Day Eff 'em all. This isn't about an -ism. It's about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Charlie "Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." * * * * * * * * * ------- * Eugene V. Debs: Freedom is a constant struggle. It was purchased with the precious blood of men and women, like you and I, dreaming of a better day for all our children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect. Write your Representatives to vote no on HR 875http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-solemn-walk-through-HR-8-by-Linn-C... -Cole-090314-67.html I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. *I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. *I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave. * * * - H. L. Mencken -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." *- Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect. It took me a long time to realize that. I ended up working at the same fast food place twice. In the beginning, all I saw was big corp. USA exploiting all the little people to make a profit. I would work for them because I had no other easy choice, but I wasn't going to try very hard. After about the first year, I quit to help some friends start up a retail shop and e-commerce site. The store only lasted about a year before the investor pulled the plug, so I started my own internet store for a while. This is actually possible with almost no initial capital investment, which was what I had at the time. Running my own business, even just for a little while, showed my exactly how much work has to go into it. The level of orders always seemed to match the amount of work I was putting into the website. That was the smallest and only fun part of it. After that, there was purchasing, shipping, customer service, inventory, accounting, taxes (easy if the accounting is done), &c. It was a fun experiment, but I eventually decided to go get my fast food job back. I still didn't care much for the company, but I felt I should give that job everything I had either way. I was the one putting myself into that situation. The most noticeable change was in my attitude toward the customers. I actually CARED about them, before I had been blaming them for my terrible situation, when I was the one to blame. The place did eventually start making me crazy, but then I ran into a really cool bum job at school, which would pay almost as much. Then not long after that, my wife and I had a baby, so I had to quit messing around to go find a job that would pay a living wage. There is a book I had read before all of this called The Hacker Ethic. http://www.amazon.com/Hacker-Ethic-P.../dp/0375505660 The author talks about the Hacker Ethic and compares it to the Protestant work ethic. This book really got me to think about my own reasons for working. I had never heard the term "work ethic" before reading this book. There were a number of other influences during this time, but it would take some trying to remember all the details. I still don't think too highly of that unnamed fast food chain. I feel that any profitable company should be paying its workers a living wage, at the very least. There are a lot of people who have no choice but to work long hours at a job which doesn't pay them enough to feed, clothe, and house themselves and their families. To turn a profit from their situation, I feel, is exploitation. At the same time, this would be a great improvement for many people. The original May 1 celebration is a good thing. However I feel it has been co-opted. Many of my peers in the work place 1990 bragged about how much overtime they got. In my immediate family I have a brother a grad of Berkeley School of music that worked 12 hours a day 7 days a week and after 25 years lost it and no pension. This as a Nursery Manager. Now he works 6 days a week 12 hours with a 401 K. Yea good money but what a life. Bill Excellent book "The Poverty Of Affluence" subtitled "A Psychological Portrait of the American Way of Life". By Paul L. Wachtel Check out the reviews. http://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Afflue...rait-American/ dp/0865711518/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241274971&sr=1-1 -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA Not all who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973) |
Lest we forget
In article
, Mycosimian wrote: Running my own business, even just for a little while, showed my exactly how much work has to go into it. The level of orders always seemed to match the amount of work I was putting into the website. That was the smallest and only fun part of it. After that, there was purchasing, shipping, customer service, inventory, accounting, taxes (easy if the accounting is done), &c. When you work for yourself, you work for a real SOB. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
In article
, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy wrote: May 1, 1886 The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot May Day parade and strikes In article , Charlie wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for the recognition of the heritage of American freedom. The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3] and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was perceived as communist. Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S. communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is not commonly observed. It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958 (Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law, President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first official observance of Loyalty Day. [6] --- I was one of the many who had never hear of this atrocity, a perfidious sham celebration to obscure class warfare, and what the workers of the world knew to be a true working person's victory. Workers of the world, who enjoy eight hour days, and forty hour weeks, owe the victim's of the Haymarket Massacre the debt to never forget their sacrifice. ----- I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave. - H. L. Mencken -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
In article ,
Bill wrote: The original May 1 celebration is a good thing. However I feel it has been co-opted. Many of my peers in the work place 1990 bragged about how much overtime they got. In my immediate family I have a brother a grad of Berkeley School of music that worked 12 hours a day 7 days a week and after 25 years lost it and no pension. This as a Nursery Manager. Now he works 6 days a week 12 hours with a 401 K. Yea good money but what a life. Bill Excellent book "The Poverty Of Affluence" subtitled "A Psychological Portrait of the American Way of Life". By Paul L. Wachtel Check out the reviews. http://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Afflue...rait-American/ dp/0865711518/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241274971&sr=1-1 -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA Not all who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973) Funny thing, success. Commonly in Europe it is gaged by service to your family. Here in America, it is gaged by service to your job. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
"Billy" wrote in message
Funny thing, success. Commonly in Europe it is gaged by service to your family. Here in America, it is gaged by service to your job. But at what cost to the workers? A couple of nights ago, we went to the local chew and spew for a meal. Funny little place. The food is edible without being much more than that and reasonably priced for what it is. Competent waitresses who are neither friendly nor overly surly - just don't spill the food off the plate as they put it in front of you. If you want a drink you have to get it from the bar. When we left and were driving home, my husband said that he thought the waitress expected a tip. I asked why he hadn't left one. His response was that no-one had done more than they were paid to do so he wasn't going to give them a tip to reward non exertion. He then went on to say that it was almost like being in America where tipping was not only expected but, in some cases, demanded. He's been to the US a lot for work but I know his attitude to rewarding non performance so asking him how he'd survived in the US. He said there had been a number of 'ugly scenes' and that he had been told on a number of occasions that the wages were so low that staff depended on tips to make ends meet. His response was that he was responsible for paying a bill and not their wages and that they should take it up with their employer. If their employers were incapable of pricing the full cost of service then there was no way that he would be expected to pay what was in effect the staff's wages. Knowing him, I can just imagine it woul dhave been an 'ugly scene'. I also know that if a tip had been demanded and not deserved, the sky could have fallen on him before he'd have parted with a cent. If what he says is anything near the truth (and I've never yet caught him lieing) then Labor Day and all that implies sounds far more appropriate than a Liberty Day. |
Lest we forget
Charlie wrote in message
On Sun, 3 May 2009 10:46:37 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "Billy" wrote in message Funny thing, success. Commonly in Europe it is gaged by service to your family. Here in America, it is gaged by service to your job. But at what cost to the workers? A couple of nights ago, we went to the local chew and spew for a meal. Funny little place. The food is edible without being much more than that and reasonably priced for what it is. Competent waitresses who are neither friendly nor overly surly - just don't spill the food off the plate as they put it in front of you. If you want a drink you have to get it from the bar. When we left and were driving home, my husband said that he thought the waitress expected a tip. I asked why he hadn't left one. His response was that no-one had done more than they were paid to do so he wasn't going to give them a tip to reward non exertion. And what are his criteria for being deserving of a tip? He then went on to say that it was almost like being in America where tipping was not only expected but, in some cases, demanded. .........where servers are oftimes treated like chattel. He's been to the US a lot for work but I know his attitude to rewarding non performance so asking him how he'd survived in the US. He said there had been a number of 'ugly scenes' and that he had been told on a number of occasions that the wages were so low that staff depended on tips to make ends meet. His response was that he was responsible for paying a bill and not their wages and that they should take it up with their employer. If their employers were incapable of pricing the full cost of service then there was no way that he would be expected to pay what was in effect the staff's wages. Knowing him, I can just imagine it woul dhave been an 'ugly scene'. I also know that if a tip had been demanded and not deserved, the sky could have fallen on him before he'd have parted with a cent. And what are his criteria for being deserving of a tip? That the staff make some effort to do more than what they are paid wages to do. If what he says is anything near the truth (and I've never yet caught him lieing) then Labor Day and all that implies sounds far more appropriate than a Liberty Day. Sorry to sound churlish, but were I a food server, I wouldn't kiss his ass at all and he could go elsewhere or eat his food out of his lap where it would be deposited. You are paid to serve food. If you are paid to be incompetent then certainly serve the food in their lap. If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that plate in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do. Servers at many places in this country bust their asses at an oftimes thankless job, for substandard wages, working gawdawful hours and have to suffer customer attitudes that most of us wouldn't tolerate. You've missed the point entirely. The whole idea of giving a wage to staff is that the money is compensation for doing the work. If that work involves long hours and rotten customers then the employer needs to pay sufficient wages so that staff will want to continue to work there. There is nothing wrong with being straightforward, but being stingy with those who are less fortunate just plain sucks. And getting ugly with servers sucks. I've seen it often and it is rude. No, it's ugly and its rude to expect a tip for doing something for which a wage is paid. Wages are what staff are paid for just doing their job. A tip is a reward. Just doing one's job is not sufficient justification to expect a tip. It is not, or certainly should not, be considered to be anything other than at the discretion of the customer. If service is such that it warrants a tip, a tip will be given. I'll let it go with that as we have had agreeable exchanges in the past and I don't wish to cross with you , concerning with this issue. Why do you think employers can get away with paying a lousy salary but expect customers to make up for their stinginess? The customer doesn't employ the staff. The customer is paying the business to provide a service. The cost of that service includes adequate wages for the work done. If the business is not prepared to pay staff a decent salary and staff NEED to be given tips, then the business is trying to lay off their costs in staff wages onto the customer. The customer is in effect being charged twice over for the service. Your response makes me think even more strongly that a Labor Day is more appropriate than a Liberty Day. |
Lest we forget
Charlie wrote in message
On Sun, 3 May 2009 14:06:09 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: Your response makes me think even more strongly that a Labor Day is more appropriate than a Liberty Day. And here we arguing differing customs in two different countries, eh? Let's be careful. Charlie you never, ever disappoint me :-)) I knew you'd figure it out. :-)) http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g1...Etiquette.html http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g2...Etiquette.html Is the information in this site correct? That the minimum wage is nearly double in oz what it is in the US? Dunno, but I know I nearly fell of my chair after 9/11 when I read years ago in another ng that the new people employed to do security at US airports were being paid $US3/hour. That is so low that no-one should be expected to work for that, ever. Pay rates depend on the job of course but if there is no Award that covers the job then the minmum you can be paid by law is $14.31/hour which works out to $10.48 in your money. Traditionally we don't have many people who'd be on minimum wages. Tipping certainly isn't common here other than at good restaurants. The one we went to the other day is not the sort of place where you'd normal tip anytime. What about benefits? How many servers in the US are elible for or receive benefits? Damn few. Ummm not sure what you are asking here. http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...to_expect.html and this? http://www.fairpay.gov.au/ Give me a ****ing break. Before you go busting the balls of servers in the US, or mine, Charlie I'd never bust your balls. I might give them a little poke like I have in this series of posts though. or someone who stands for fairp(l)ay you better consider the wage differences, if I read them correctly. Yes. That is why you workers in the US need a Labor day along with all that implies. You are being screwed and that appalls me. What server is going to give more than minimal service to someone who is not going to tip or comes across with the attitude you describe, in the US? I wouldn't and I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't either. Nope. I'd be out there joining a union and fighting for the rights of workers in your situation. I've been engaged in a lot of union stouches on both sides of the fence, as a negotiator on behalf of management and as a negotiator on behalf of workers. You rightly observe that many americans are rude towards aussies Nope, I didn't observe that. and I observe that when in another's country you observe local and national customs in order that you don't appear a ****ing dick. Tell your husband to consult a travel guide. Waste of time Charlie. He may have ben highly competent at his job before he retired but you wouldn't let him out alone if you had any sense. In Chicago he asked a black woman how to get somewhere and he and another white middle class white Australian Honkie (is that the term?) went the way she'd go. They ended up on a train where they were the only white faces and then got off the train in what was a black slum where they were the only white faces in sight. Even I had trouble believing he'd be so silly but you should hear what an American friend who lives in New York says about it. I don't give a fat baby's ass how you do or don't tip in your local, but don't have the arrogance to assume that your attitude and custom towards this issue is the ****all end of the matter. Huh? Now you've dropped into a vernacular that I don't understand at all. |
Lest we forget
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that plate in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do. In the U.S. the minimum wage for servers is lower than for other workers, and the tax folk assume you get tips. Like it or not, that's the custom, and anybody who doesn't tip at all for normal service is a cheap *******, who will likely get all sorts of festive additives to his food if he comes back. [Note: this was the cleaned-up version; my sweetie who used to wait table suggested much stronger terms.] Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
Lest we forget
"Gary Woods" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that plate in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do. In the U.S. the minimum wage for servers is lower than for other workers, and the tax folk assume you get tips. That is immoral on a number of counts. Like it or not, that's the custom, Yes. So why doesn't anyone think about the custom and start to question why it is that way? Or are you just happy to continue to blame the customers for being cheap rather than the employers who arent' prepared to pay a decent wage? and anybody who doesn't tip at all for normal service is a cheap *******, who will likely get all sorts of festive additives to his food if he comes back. Yes that point has already been made by Charlie. The point that I am making and which continually seems to be overlooked is that your workers are being screwed. The US needs a Labor Day rather than a Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed forever? |
Lest we forget
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
The US needs a Labor Day rather than a Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed forever? No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay more than they have to. The fact remains that the customer should be aware of the situation and not take the mean-spirited "They're already getting paid to do this; I'm not giving them any more" approach. In some places a gratuity is added to the bill up front. Not common in the U.S. except for large groups. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
Lest we forget
In article
, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "Gary Woods" wrote in message "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that plate in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do. In the U.S. the minimum wage for servers is lower than for other workers, and the tax folk assume you get tips. That is immoral on a number of counts. Like it or not, that's the custom, Yes. So why doesn't anyone think about the custom and start to question why it is that way? Or are you just happy to continue to blame the customers for being cheap rather than the employers who arent' prepared to pay a decent wage? and anybody who doesn't tip at all for normal service is a cheap *******, who will likely get all sorts of festive additives to his food if he comes back. Yes that point has already been made by Charlie. The point that I am making and which continually seems to be overlooked is that your workers are being screwed. The US needs a Labor Day rather than a Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed forever? A little Vaseline (not too much sand, like the old days) and being told that we are number one (Spend half of the worlds war money on weapons, WORLD"S money, not just our enemies[ the guys that don't roll over] but half the WORLD'S M-O-N-E-Y. We are the largest thing in conservative governments since the Third Reich. Over the top? Wars are continuing, Presidential ability to withhold information continues, the transfer of wealth to the rich continues, grinding debt on those who were encouraged (by Shrub: http://federalism.typepad.com/crime_...ge-w-bush-c.ht ml ) to take a chance and buy a house. Torture is not forbidden, continued detention, with no charges continues. Eavesdropping on citizens continues. We are given a lollypop and the pillage continues. HELLO! On the sane (mine-not my environment's) side of gardening. I broadcast some more onion seeds into the combo onion patch. Adjusted paving stones in garden and seeded between the stones with clover. Did a bit of pruning, and checked under clear plastic lids to see if seedlings needed water (checked the troops). Hopefully, I'll get my terracing done tomorrow and the pepper patch, mulched. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
In article ,
Gary Woods wrote: "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: The US needs a Labor Day rather than a Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed forever? No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay more than they have to. The fact remains that the customer should be aware of the situation and not take the mean-spirited "They're already getting paid to do this; I'm not giving them any more" approach. In some places a gratuity is added to the bill up front. Not common in the U.S. except for large groups. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G If you know, going-in, that the wait-staff will expect a tip, and you go in anyway, what are you saying but, "OK, I agree to the terms of service". Saying that, the range of tips that I have left, range from $50 to 1 cent (I didn't want him to think that I forgot). If you receive less than satisfactory service, leave a less than satisfactory tip, and conversely, if you have enjoyed your service, reward accordingly. They could have put you next to the toilets. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
Billy wrote in
t.au: We are given a lollypop and the pillage continues. HELLO! Billy, he's had just over 3 *months* and the Republicans in Congress are fighting him tooth & nail. what the hell do you think *anyone* can get done in 3 months, especially considering the plate of manure he was handed (2 useless, unwinnable wars, an economy in the tank, and a really greedy Congress with both parties in bed with whoever pays most- big Ag, big Pharma, etc). give the guy some working room will you. he's not the Wizard of Oz. lee |
Lest we forget
"Gary Woods" wrote in message
No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay more than they have to. :-)) Excuses excuses. Employers will use them all the time - just a variation on a theme. When it was boom times the excuse was that if they paid staff more it would eat into their competive advantage (and often that was accompanied by "and cause jobs to be driven offshore". I know the latter doesn't apply to the restaurant trade but I'll bet you've heard it.) In some places a gratuity is added to the bill up front. In reality, that sounds very like the business is eefectively charging the full cost of the service. That to me is a more effective way of paying the staff what they should be paid for the work they do. |
Lest we forget
Charlie wrote in message
... On Sun, 3 May 2009 16:19:18 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: Charlie wrote in message On Sun, 3 May 2009 14:06:09 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: Your response makes me think even more strongly that a Labor Day is more appropriate than a Liberty Day. And here we arguing differing customs in two different countries, eh? Let's be careful. Charlie you never, ever disappoint me :-)) I knew you'd figure it out. :-)) Yeah sure, after I went all amerocentric and temporarily lost my focus... :-)) Thanks for the vote of confidence, but give me enough time and I might! ;-) :-)))))) http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g1...Etiquette.html http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g2...Etiquette.html Is the information in this site correct? That the minimum wage is nearly double in oz what it is in the US? Dunno, but I know I nearly fell of my chair after 9/11 when I read years ago in another ng that the new people employed to do security at US airports were being paid $US3/hour. That is so low that no-one should be expected to work for that, ever. Pay rates depend on the job of course but if there is no Award that covers the job then the minmum you can be paid by law is $14.31/hour which works out to $10.48 in your money. Traditionally we don't have many people who'd be on minimum wages. What is an Award? Ah! Quick and dirty definition: An Award is an agreement that includes conditons of service (annual leave, Leave loadings, sick leave, Long Service Leave, hours of work, dispute resolution mechanisms, rates of pay and such like) and is negotiated between the employer and the union with coverage for that industry (in the case of a big employer) or, in the case of small businesses it will be negotiated between the unions and the employers organisation that covers those types of businesses. Awards are registered with either a State government or the Federal Government and are legally binding. So an employer who doesn't pay the amount of salary that staff are entitled to, the employer will be taken to court by the government, etc, right across the things covered in the Award. Tipping certainly isn't common here other than at good restaurants. The one we went to the other day is not the sort of place where you'd normal tip anytime. What about benefits? How many servers in the US are elible for or receive benefits? Damn few. Ummm not sure what you are asking here. Used to be, less common now with the tits-upedness of the economy, a good job came with company paid health insurance and oftimes a pension plan of sort. Few years back, during the height of unionbusting and such, since the Reagan years in particular, union busting and very active antiunion methods have been employed. Ah! Here people pay their own health coverage or if they don't choose to do so, they are covered by a Federal government scheme called Medicare. Traditionally here the sort of benefits staff could commonly expect to get are a minimum of 3 weeks annual leave (but increasingly commonly, 4 weeks), 9% of salary paid by the employer to superannuation, somewhere between 1-2 weeks sick leave on full pay/year (sometimes also 1-2 weeks half pay sick leave/year) and 1-3 months Long Service Leave on full pay after 10 years service. These things only apply to full time staff - if you are a worker employed casually, you generally get a 10-20% higher hourly rate of pay because you don't get leave of any sort (except in some case such as the job I have, we get Long Service leave after 10 years or in our case and other older workers, we get pro rata Long Service leave if we resign after 2 years) - you still get supperannuation paid by the employer as a casual. Charlie I'd never bust your balls. I might give them a little poke like I have in this series of posts though. Hmmm...that must have been what caused me to be.....testy. :-)) Yes I suspected as much, even though I didn't set out to poke your goolies at all. or someone who stands for fairp(l)ay you better consider the wage differences, if I read them correctly. Yes. That is why you workers in the US need a Labor day along with all that implies. You are being screwed and that appalls me. Hell yeah we are, and when the unemployment rate is at least fifteen percent (ignore the official gummint fudged figures, actual is double the reporting) there are plent of hungry who don't care about unionization. Indeed. Our unemployment rate is being reported as being 7% but then they shove some workers off into other categories of what you'd call welfare so the rate is hidden. What server is going to give more than minimal service to someone who is not going to tip or comes across with the attitude you describe, in the US? I wouldn't and I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't either. Nope. I'd be out there joining a union and fighting for the rights of workers in your situation. I've been engaged in a lot of union stouches on both sides of the fence, as a negotiator on behalf of management and as a negotiator on behalf of workers. Union organization is a rough go. Been there, and been involved in the organization, at one job I had. We pulled it off, but it was a hell of a fight and then a continual fight. :-)) Yep. I've got the Tee shirt too. My place of work has been undergoing a process of negotiating for a new agreement and although I wasn't on the team this time round, I threw a total wobbly at a recent managment staff meeting. The dopy *******s who were representing staff had let a clause through to the final draft because they didn't understand what it meant. I asked management for an explanation and hit the roof when they confirmed what I'd thought. Management was trying to introduce a clause into our new agreement that was immoral and unconscionable. And believe me, me chucking a wobbly is NOT a pretty sight. I told them they were trying to perpetrate a fraud, that they'd only try to use that clause once and after that they'd be out there doing our jobs themselves because they'd suddenly find that all casual staff were "unavailable" on a particular working day - being casual we can choose not to come in because thay have no means of compelling us to do so. They've now changed the clause. You rightly observe that many americans are rude towards aussies Nope, I didn't observe that. My mistake. and I observe that when in another's country you observe local and national customs in order that you don't appear a ****ing dick. Tell your husband to consult a travel guide. Waste of time Charlie. He may have ben highly competent at his job before he retired but you wouldn't let him out alone if you had any sense. In Chicago he asked a black woman how to get somewhere and he and another white middle class white Australian Honkie (is that the term?) went the way she'd go. They ended up on a train where they were the only white faces and then got off the train in what was a black slum where they were the only white faces in sight. Even I had trouble believing he'd be so silly but you should hear what an American friend who lives in New York says about it. I don't give a fat baby's ass how you do or don't tip in your local, but don't have the arrogance to assume that your attitude and custom towards this issue is the ****all end of the matter. Huh? Now you've dropped into a vernacular that I don't understand at all. Just as well, as I was being a bit angry and....testy, after getting me nuts poked and missing the point a bit. I understood that there was testiness there but I just couldn't translate it into a form of English that I can understand. Just as well perhaps? ;-) |
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"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
Ah! Quick and dirty definition: An Award is an agreement that includes conditons of service (annual leave, Leave loadings, sick leave, Long Service Leave, hours of work, dispute resolution mechanisms, rates of pay and such like) We'd just call that a Union Contract. And yes, companies here too try to slip in apparently harmless clauses that can be used to their advantage. The labor climate here in the U.S. the past some years is such that many such contracts are pretty toothless. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
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"Gary Woods" wrote in message
Charlie wrote: Pete Seeger: The Power of Song I watched this last night on our local PBS station; Pete lives just down the Hudson river a ways, (snip) Yeah, old Pete is getting on; he only entertained for 45 minutes that day. Nice to hear that he's still alive and can manage that amount of time. he must be very old by now. |
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"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
Nice to hear that he's still alive and can manage that amount of time. he must be very old by now. Should have mentioned- Yesterday, 5/4, was Pete Seeger's 90th birthday. He was at a celebration at Madison Square Garden in New York City for it; I'm sure video will follow. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
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"Gary Woods" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: Nice to hear that he's still alive and can manage that amount of time. he must be very old by now. Should have mentioned- Yesterday, 5/4, was Pete Seeger's 90th birthday. Wow. And still performing. What a legend. He was at a celebration at Madison Square Garden in New York City for it; I'm sure video will follow. :-)) Wouldn't that be a DVD these days? Or should that be a 'blue ray' something or other (says she not knowing what the hell 'blue ray' means anyway) |
Lest we forget
people in the rest of the world where labor and management have something of mutual
respect have absolutely no idea of the hatred American business has for unions. My father organized unions and I live in the area where union organizers were gunned down. businesses will hire companies that specialize in preventing or breaking unions and spend themselves into bankruptcy before they will deal with a union. they will shut their business down before dealing with a union. I had a temp job one summer and watched this process first hand. There were only 8 women (they would never hire a man) who did sterility testing (some wanted to join a union). Because I was hired to write the procedural manuals he felt free to spew his anti-union venom around me. It was an education! What is particularly vicious is the banks are using taxpayer bailout money to lobby congress against the latest attempt to level the playing field for unions, the "card check" bill. I have a young friend raised by those of the corporate mentality and so terrified of "others" that they would not think of leaving their pure white suburban/rural village to come into our multi-racialethnic city for any reason what-so-ever. She lives in a mental straight jacket and is only gradually emerging in tiny steps. It is truly pathetic to see how limited her life is especially since she is otherwise a highly intelligent and engaging person. Thankfully, this new young next generation raised on the internet has been exposed to a view of the world other than their parents terror and hatred of anybody and anything different than themselves, and seems to be embracing a social philosophy of inclusiveness. Ingrid |
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In article ,
enigma wrote: Billy wrote in t.au: We are given a lollypop and the pillage continues. HELLO! Billy, he's had just over 3 *months* and the Republicans in Congress are fighting him tooth & nail. what the hell do you think *anyone* can get done in 3 months, especially considering the plate of manure he was handed (2 useless, unwinnable wars, an economy in the tank, and a really greedy Congress with both parties in bed with whoever pays most- big Ag, big Pharma, etc). give the guy some working room will you. he's not the Wizard of Oz. lee He could decline Presidential Privilege. He made torture illegal for the Army. He could have done the same thing to the C.I.A. He could allow, not encourage, allow a legal review of the previous administration actions. We have stopped paying the Sunni militias to stand down (just in time for the elections) and violence is on the rise again in Iraq. Afghanistan is a nightmare that is just starting to unfold. Every innocent person that our troops, or "drones", kill gives rise to more people who want vengeance against the western powers. Obama said that he would bring the wars to an end and now we are positioned to have 50,000 combat troops in Iraq indefinitely (no mention of the 150,000 mercenaries that we have there) and he is ramping up the war in Afghanistan. If we wanted peace, we could have it on the cheap (comparatively) by not involving ourselves in Iraqi politics (but then, they are our own, aren't they?) and just build water treatment plants, and power generation stations (infrastructure). Then we would be seen as a liberators and not occupiers. We had a chance to say that the errors of the past, died with the last administration. If we continue the errors, suppression of oil producing countries (and countries where we want to place oil pipelines) will be seen as a "set" element of American foreign policy. We have a chance for a new beginning, people want to think that Obama is a good man. We are "offered" intelligent, thoughtful changes in energy production to improved relations with Cuba, just about everything except for the pillaging of the national wealth and reputation. Instead of a government of, by and for the people, the government seems poised to suppress dissent. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
Lest we forget
wrote in message
people in the rest of the world where labor and management have something of mutual respect have absolutely no idea of the hatred American business has for unions. That is a parochial statment. But then of course no-one outside the US would have ever heard of Jimmy Hoffa would they? Thankfully, this new young next generation raised on the internet has been exposed to a view of the world other than their parents terror and hatred of anybody and anything different than themselves, and seems to be embracing a social philosophy of inclusiveness. I suspect you are being overly optimistic. |
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Charlie wrote in message
On Mon, 4 May 2009 23:54:11 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given "Truth springs from argument amongst friends." I count myself fortunate to have misunderstandings and arguments with you. Thanks for the continuing education, Fran. Gosh. That's stopped me in my tracks as it's far more of a compliment than I deserve. Thank you Charlie, I feel quite humbled. |
Lest we forget
Charlie wrote in message
On Wed, 6 May 2009 17:25:01 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: Thank you Charlie, I feel quite humbled. Well now, old china, I guess we're even. :-) LOL. I didn't know I was supposed to be keeping a score....... |
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Charlie wrote in message
Lovey yelled out to my manhole and had me turn on the telly where they were showing a fruit called Chocolate Pudding Fruit...looking it up on-the-line it was called Black Sapote. You had it or have it? It sounds delightful. Never eaten it but read about it lots of times. It needs far more warmth than where I live. I have trouble keeping a lemon tree alive outside so Sapote is out for me. |
Lest we forget
"FarmI" wrote: Charlie wrote: Lovey yelled out to my manhole and had me turn on the telly where they were showing a fruit called Chocolate Pudding Fruit...looking it up on-the-line it was called Black Sapote. You had it or have it? It sounds delightful. Never eaten it but read about it lots of times. It needs far more warmth than where I live. I have trouble keeping a lemon tree alive outside so Sapote is out for me. When I lived in Belize the various types of sapote were very popular ice cream flavors. Sapote trees should grow wherever citrus grows. Many tropical fruits do not ship well but Hispanic markets often sell a variety frozen and as beverages. http://www.thefruitpages.com/chocolatefruit.shtml |
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