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#16
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Heirloom Apples
On Sun, 10 May 2009 02:16:03 -0500, sherwin dubren
wrote: sherwin dubren wrote: Steve Peek wrote: If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones that taste unbelievably good) you have to check out: http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm gonna need more land. Steve Steve, I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to do that, but I couldn't figure it out. These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot, and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than Rotenone, say Imidan. Sherwin It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense my position. Nothing like a little censorship. Sherwin All of the messages show up on Google Groups. Other people cannot remove you messages. It is almost impossible to remove all copies of your own messages even when you send a rescind message immediately. One person, Steve (I think) has his messages marked "do not archive" but they still show up on Google for 10 days. -- Susan N. "Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral, 48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy." Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974) |
#17
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Heirloom Apples
In article ,
phorbin wrote: In article , says... I still have the entire discussion. Steve Nothing further has appeared here. I still have the entire discussion too. Mt-newswatcher. Bill -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA Not all who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973) |
#19
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Heirloom Apples
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#20
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Heirloom Apples
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#21
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Heirloom Apples
In article ,
says... In article , phorbin wrote: In article , says... I still have the entire discussion. Steve Nothing further has appeared here. I still have the entire discussion too. Mt-newswatcher. Bill Me too. It's sitting on my hard drive, having been downloaded in its entirety up to this point. The article Sherwin referred to hasn't made it here. ...which can be chalked up to the vagaries of USENET or something more sinister depending on one's preferences. |
#22
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Heirloom Apples
In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote: Billy wrote: In article , sherwin dubren wrote: Billygoat, By the way, you are probably putting out more pollutants from your automobiles than our occasional spraying. I suggest you lock them in your garage before you kill us all. Sherwin Doo head, all I'm asking is that when you recommend a chemical that you list the downside of that chemical. The is no probably in extremely toxic to birds and fish. But you are the doo man, and you doo, that doo-doo, that you doo so well. Aw, you went and made me Gruff again. I suggest you see a neurologist to treat your 'do do' problem. I should probably see a proctologist to have a contract taken out on you. Also, what do you want me to say? Sure, drinking these chemicals is not recommended. Wearing protective breathing and clothing is. Also, if you dump your excess chemicals in a water run off, or some lake it would do damage. Proper handling and disposal is the order of the day. If you are addressing your concerns to the backyard orchardist who probably has about a dozen or so trees, I see no great effect on the environment. Are you aware that many of these chemicals break down and are burn't off in the sun? Imidan is one of them. Sevin, on the other hand, lingers on for some time, so I don't use it. One jet plane taking off probably spews more polution to the environment than dozens, if not hundreds of hobby orchardists. If you want to go after the commercial orchards, most of them take proper precautions. Since their use of chemicals is on a much larger scale, their effect could be significant, if the chemicals are not handled and disposed of properly. You have to get the public and backyard orchardists to give up clean unattacked fruit. The point is that they aren't clean and the environment is polluted in the process. Again, you don't quantify or qualify your response. All you give us is probably . . . I know certain varieties can be grown organically, but they usually are not the best tasting ones. Can you name them, or do you just like the taste of pesticides? Sherwin -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go |
#23
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Heirloom Apples
In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote: Billy wrote: In article , sherwin dubren wrote: Steve Peek wrote: If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones that taste unbelievably good) you have to check out: http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm gonna need more land. Steve Steve, I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to do that, but I couldn't figure it out. These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot, and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than Rotenone, say Imidan. Sherwin Shelly and Sherwin-doo, back together again. I thought life was too sweet. Never figured out IPM? Still spraying poisons around to pollute the environment? Well Billygoat, You are obviously not competent to use these chemicals and should stay away from them for your own health's sake. Hope you enjoy all those apples with the worms inside. Sherwin Insightful into the depths of your ignorance and stupidity. In your drooling sarcasm, you didn't respond to: Imidan 70-W Active Ingredient: Phosmet (70.0%) Chemical Class: Organophosphorous Pesticide ( nerve gas. It may not be toxic to you but their may be pregnancies or small children in your area.)) ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION Summary of Effects Phosmet This pesticide is toxic to fish and wildlife. For terrestrial uses, do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water by cleaning of equipment or disposal of wastes. Drift and runoff from treated areas may be hazardous to aquatic organisms in adjacent aquatic sites. This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment. Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting the treatment area. http://www.gowanco.com/ProductInfo~p...an%2070-W.aspx Anyone with apples, may want to look at: Pests of the Garden and Small Farm: A Grower's Guide to Using Less Pesticide, Second edition by Mary Louise Flint http://www.amazon.com/Pests-Garden-S...0520218108/ref =sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241540176&sr=1-1 although it is primarily for orchards in California, or browse the IPM books at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...pbooks&field-k eywords=Integrated+Pest+Management+for+Apples&x=12 &y=20 and then see if they aren't available from the library. For coddling moth see http://www.gardensalive.com/article....&sid=143411&gc lid=COe1qI_WpZoCFShRagod9RpU9g&bhcd2=1241543555 For Apple Maggot see http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/tree006/tree006.htm Sure, insecticides may be more thorough in eradicating the pest but it poisons the environment, kills off pollinators, kills off fish which may surpress mosquitos, and is a threat to human embryos, and small children. IPM may not eradicate garden and orchard pests, it will make them more manageable, preserve the environment, and give you and your's food free from unnatural chemicals, about which we are still trying to figure out the consequences of our living with them. If you find that insecticides are the only way you have of growing a given crop, you may want to re-think, if that crop is that important to you and the planet. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go |
#24
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Heirloom Apples
In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote: sherwin dubren wrote: Steve Peek wrote: If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones that taste unbelievably good) you have to check out: http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm gonna need more land. Steve Steve, I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to do that, but I couldn't figure it out. These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot, and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than Rotenone, say Imidan. Sherwin It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense my position. Nothing like a little censorship. Sherwin IIRC paranoia is a side effect of insecticide poisoning. Huffing the lindane again, Doo? http://chm.pops.int/Convention/Press...009/tabid/542/ language/en-US/Default.aspx Governments unite to step-up reduction on global DDT reliance and add nine new chemicals under international treaty Geneva, 8 May 2009 Nine persistent organic pollutants (POPs) were listed today under the Stockholm Convention. Over 160 Governments have just concluded a one-week conference with practical decisions that will strengthen a global effort to eradicate some of the most toxic chemicals known to humankind. The Conference of the Parties (COP) has marked a historic week for the Stockholm Convention. For the first time, the Convention was amended to include nine new chemicals. Many of these are still widely used today as pesticides, flame retardants and in a number of other commercial uses. łThis meeting in Geneva has culminated in a momentous day for the Stockholm Convention. Its significance cannot be under-estimated. We now have a clear signal that Governments around the world take seriously the risks posed by such toxic chemicals. The tremendous impact of these substances on human health and the environment has been acknowledged today by adding nine new chemicals to the Convention. This shift reflects international concern on the need to reduce and eventually eliminate such substances throughout the global community,˛ said UN Under-Secretary General and UNEP Executive, Achim Steiner. (cut) The Stockholm Convention targets certain hazardous pesticides and industrial chemicals that can kill people, damage the nervous and immune systems, cause cancer and reproductive disorders and interfere with normal infant and child development. The nine new chemicals now listed under the Stockholm Convention a Alpha hexachlorocyclohexane to Annex A; Beta hexachlorocyclohexane to Annex A; Although the intentional use of alpha- and beta-HCH as an insecticide was phased out years ago, these chemicals are still produced as an unintentional by-product of lindane. Approximately 6-10 tons of other isomers including alpha- and beta-HCH result from each ton of lindane produced. Hexabromodiphenyl ether and heptabromodiphenyl ether to Annex A; Tetrabromodiphenyl ether and pentabromodiphenyl ether to Annex A; Bromodiphenyl ether congeners are a group of brominated organic substances that inhibit or suppress combustion in organic material, which are used as additive flame retardants. Brominated diphenyl ethers are mainly manufactured as commercial mixtures where several isomers, congeners and small amounts of other substances occur. Chlordecone to Annex A; Chlordecone is a synthetic chlorinated organic compound, which was mainly used as an agricultural pesticide. It was first produced in 1951 and introduced commercially in 1958. Current use or production of the chemical is not reported. Hexabromobiphenyl to Annex A; Hexabromobiphenyl (HBB) is an industrial chemical that was used as a flame retardant, mainly in the 1970s. Based on existing data, HBB is no longer produced and is not used in new or existing products. Lindane to Annex A; Lindane was used as a broad-spectrum insecticide for seed and soil treatment, foliar applications, tree and wood treatment and against ectoparasites in both veterinary and human treatments. Lindane production has decreased rapidly in recent years and only a few countries still produce it. Pentachlorobenzene to Annex A and C; Pentachlorobenzene (PeCB) was used in PCB products, dyestuff carriers, as a fungicide, a flame retardant and a chemical intermediate such as the production of quintozene and it may still be used for this purpose. PeCB is also produced unintentionally during combustion in thermal and industrial processes. It appears as an impurity in products such as solvents or pesticides. Perfluorooctane sulfonic acid, its salts and perfluorooctane sulfonyl fluoride to Annex A or B; PFOS is both intentionally produced and an unintended degradation product of related anthropogenic chemicals. The current intentional use of PFOS is widespread and found in products such as in electric and electronic parts, fire fighting foam, photo imaging, hydraulic fluids and textiles. PFOS are still produced in several countries today. The 12 initial POPs covered by the Convention include nine pesticides (aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex and toxaphene); two industrial chemicals (PCBs as well as hexachlorobenzene, also used as a pesticide); and the unintentional by-products, most importantly dioxins and furans. Further information is available at http://www.pops.int or by emailing -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go |
#25
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Heirloom Apples
In article ,
phorbin wrote: In article wildbilly-C52A12.07302510052009@c-61-68-245- 199.per.connect.net.au, says... We can decide what to believe based on whatever makes us comfortable. Since there is more money in selling chemicals than an organic approach, you wouldn't think that Dr. Doo (childish, I know) would be censored. He be their boy. I figure the real answer is straight-forward, simple and easy. Messages go missing all the time. Everything from a keyboard slip through black hole could account for this.. That said: A blanket cancel would be more ambiguous than a specific one. One could easily hide behind the ambiguity. But since everybody has the thread, 'cept doo, it would appear to be his screw-up (at least it pleases me to think so ;O) -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
#26
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Heirloom Apples
In article wildbilly-C52A12.07302510052009@c-61-68-245-
199.per.connect.net.au, says... We can decide what to believe based on whatever makes us comfortable. Since there is more money in selling chemicals than an organic approach, you wouldn't think that Dr. Doo (childish, I know) would be censored. He be their boy. I figure the real answer is straight-forward, simple and easy. Messages go missing all the time. Everything from a keyboard slip through black hole could account for this.. That said: A blanket cancel would be more ambiguous than a specific one. One could easily hide behind the ambiguity. |
#27
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Heirloom Apples
"Steve Peek" wrote in message news:-
"sherwin dubren" wrote in message sherwin dubren wrote: Steve Peek wrote: It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense my position. Nothing like a little censorship. Sherwin I still have the entire discussion. Steve I do too. |
#28
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Noted that last comment and suggest a good book by Matthew Biggs on this subject. I believe he's website has details regarding the veg book. http://www.matthewbiggs.com
Helped me a lot. A |
#29
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Heirloom Apples
Wild Billy wrote:
You have to get the public and backyard orchardists to give up clean unattacked fruit. The point is that they aren't clean and the environment is polluted in the process. Again, you don't quantify or qualify your response. All you give us is probably . . . Let me say that even some of the stronger chemicals, like Imidan are burned off by sunlight after a week, or so. Nevertheless, I wash off all the fruit I pick with soap. Those who are super concerned have the option of peeling their fruit, since most of the chemicals do not penetrate the skin of the fruit. I know certain varieties can be grown organically, but they usually are not the best tasting ones. Can you name them, or do you just like the taste of pesticides? I grow one of them, Williams Pride, a disease resistant apple from Purdue U. There are others, like Pristine, etc. I tolerate my Williams Pride because it is one of my few early rippening apples, and the flavor is not too bad. The apples I really treasure are not disease resistant, such as Honey Crisp, Golden Russet, Spigold, etc. I have tried organic sprays and some of the milder orchard sprays and got a lot of attacked apples. I bet you never heard of some of these varieties, so you probably don't know what you are missing. By the way, don't you think you can cut out this juvenile 'doo' naming? Sherwin |
#30
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Heirloom Apples
Wild Billy wrote:
Insightful into the depths of your ignorance and stupidity. In your drooling sarcasm, you didn't respond to: Imidan 70-W Active Ingredient: Phosmet (70.0%) Chemical Class: Organophosphorous Pesticide ( nerve gas. It may not be toxic to you but their may be pregnancies or small children in your area.)) I don't spray if there are windy conditions or people. ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION Summary of Effects Phosmet This pesticide is toxic to fish and wildlife. For terrestrial uses, do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water by cleaning of equipment or disposal of wastes. Drift and runoff from treated areas may be hazardous to aquatic organisms in adjacent aquatic sites. This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment. Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting the treatment area. http://www.gowanco.com/ProductInfo~p...an%2070-W.aspx Why don't you look up Rotenone. A spray classified as organic since it is extracted from plants. There are findings now that it attacks the human nervous system causing all kinds of problems like Parkinson's disease. Anyone with apples, may want to look at: Pests of the Garden and Small Farm: A Grower's Guide to Using Less Pesticide, Second edition by Mary Louise FlintGarden-Small-Farm-Pesticide/dp/0520218108/ref http://www.amazon.com/Pests- =sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241540176&sr=1-1 although it is primarily for orchards in California, Many parts of California are not plagued by Codling Moths or Apple Maggot. or browse the IPM books at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...pbooks&field-k eywords=Integrated+Pest+Management+for+Apples&x=12 &y=20 and then see if they aren't available from the library. For coddling moth see http://www.gardensalive.com/article....&sid=143411&gc lid=COe1qI_WpZoCFShRagod9RpU9g&bhcd2=1241543555 The pests around me just laugh at Surround. It washes off with the first rains, and clogs up your sprayers. For Apple Maggot see http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/tree006/tree006.htm If you look at the PDF file in this reference, they talk about quarantine of apple maggot areas and disposing of any fruit harboring the apple maggot. Not a solution for me. Sure, insecticides may be more thorough in eradicating the pest but it poisons the environment, kills off pollinators, Anybody who knows anything about spraying knows you don't spray until after petal fall of the blossoms. Without pollen, the insects should not be around. kills off fish You don't dump your chemicals into the sanitation system or a river. which may surpress mosquitos, and is a threat to human embryos, and small children. IPM may not eradicate garden and orchard pests, it will make them more manageable, preserve the environment, and give you and your's food free from unnatural chemicals, about which we are still trying to figure out the consequences of our living with them. If you find that insecticides are the only way you have of growing a given crop, you may want to re-think, if that crop is that important to you and the planet. In my case, I feel that proper usage of these chemicals will have a negligible effect on the environment. Automobiles, planes, power plants, etc. far out shadow anything I do in my backyard. If you have never tasted a quality apple from the tree, you probably don't know what you are missing. Sherwin |
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