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Old 10-05-2009, 03:29 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Heirloom Apples

On Sun, 10 May 2009 02:16:03 -0500, sherwin dubren
wrote:

sherwin dubren wrote:
Steve Peek wrote:
If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones
that taste unbelievably good) you have to check out:
http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm
gonna need more land.
Steve

Steve,

I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various
sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a
particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to
do that, but I couldn't figure it out.

These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever
possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot,
and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than
Rotenone, say Imidan.

Sherwin


It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove
postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom
Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense
my position. Nothing like a little censorship.

Sherwin



All of the messages show up on Google Groups. Other people cannot
remove you messages. It is almost impossible to remove all copies of
your own messages even when you send a rescind message immediately.

One person, Steve (I think) has his messages marked "do not archive"
but they still show up on Google for 10 days.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:45 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


I still have the entire discussion.
Steve


Nothing further has appeared here.


I still have the entire discussion too. Mt-newswatcher.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)







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Old 10-05-2009, 04:30 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove
postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom
Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense
my position. Nothing like a little censorship.


Let me see...

I doubt if any of the usual participants in this newsgroup would want to
censor the thread.

While I disagree with you categorically and think there is no reasonable
defense of using pesticides or herbicides, you have the right to say
your piece, as do we all. The issues matter too much to silence the
opposition.

There's at least 1 corporate entity cum 2 trick pony that might monitor
for certain carefully picked hot-button (but true) key words and phrases
and either complain or cancel. I know that if I were them, I would and
that all the gardening newsgroups would be reasonable targets to
monitor.

If it is censorship, I think, you can guess what words set off the alarm
and who might be being censored... (Then again, it could just be that
Motzarella.org server has a short latency period or you inadvertantly
deleted the thread from your newsreader.)

I'll note that the opposite poles I mentioned use similar methodologies
to inspire fear, silence dissent and make bad publicity or bad public go
away. IMO, the difference between money and a gun is that a gun kills
more quickly.

We can decide what to believe based on whatever makes us comfortable.


Since there is more money in selling chemicals than an organic approach,
you wouldn't think that Dr. Doo (childish, I know) would be censored. He
be their boy.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:37 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 544
Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
says...


It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove
postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom
Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense
my position. Nothing like a little censorship.


Let me see...

I doubt if any of the usual participants in this newsgroup would want to
censor the thread.

While I disagree with you categorically and think there is no reasonable
defense of using pesticides or herbicides, you have the right to say
your piece, as do we all. The issues matter too much to silence the
opposition.

There's at least 1 corporate entity cum 2 trick pony that might monitor
for certain carefully picked hot-button (but true) key words and phrases
and either complain or cancel. I know that if I were them, I would and
that all the gardening newsgroups would be reasonable targets to
monitor.

If it is censorship, I think, you can guess what words set off the alarm
and who might be being censored... (Then again, it could just be that
Motzarella.org server has a short latency period or you inadvertantly
deleted the thread from your newsreader.)

I'll note that the opposite poles I mentioned use similar methodologies
to inspire fear, silence dissent and make bad publicity or bad public go
away. IMO, the difference between money and a gun is that a gun kills
more quickly.

We can decide what to believe based on whatever makes us comfortable.

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Old 10-05-2009, 04:38 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
says...


I still have the entire discussion.
Steve


Nothing further has appeared here.


  #22   Report Post  
Old 10-05-2009, 06:32 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 26
Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote:

Billygoat,

By the way, you are probably putting out more pollutants from your
automobiles than our occasional spraying. I suggest you lock them in
your garage before you kill us all.

Sherwin


Doo head, all I'm asking is that when you recommend a chemical that you
list the downside of that chemical. The is no probably in extremely
toxic to birds and fish. But you are the doo man, and you doo, that
doo-doo, that you doo so well.

Aw, you went and made me Gruff again.


I suggest you see a neurologist to treat your 'do do' problem.

I should probably see a proctologist to have a contract taken out on you.

Also, what do you want me to say? Sure, drinking these chemicals
is not recommended. Wearing protective breathing and clothing is.

Also, if you dump your excess chemicals in a water run off, or some
lake it would do damage. Proper handling and disposal is the order
of the day.

If you are addressing your concerns to the backyard orchardist who
probably has about a dozen or so trees, I see no great effect on the
environment. Are you aware that many of these chemicals break down
and are burn't off in the sun? Imidan is one of them. Sevin, on
the other hand, lingers on for some time, so I don't use it.

One jet plane taking off probably spews more polution to the
environment than dozens, if not hundreds of hobby orchardists.
If you want to go after the commercial orchards, most of them
take proper precautions. Since their use of chemicals is on a
much larger scale, their effect could be significant, if the
chemicals are not handled and disposed of properly.

You have to get the public and backyard orchardists to give up
clean unattacked fruit.

The point is that they aren't clean and the environment is polluted in
the process. Again, you don't quantify or qualify your response. All you
give us is probably . . .
I know certain varieties can be grown
organically, but they usually are not the best tasting ones.

Can you name them, or do you just like the taste of pesticides?

Sherwin

--

- Billy

"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is
now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of
conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:34 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 26
Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote:

Steve Peek wrote:
If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones that
taste unbelievably good) you have to check out:
http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm
gonna
need more land.
Steve


Steve,

I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various
sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a
particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to
do that, but I couldn't figure it out.

These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever
possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot,
and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than
Rotenone, say Imidan.

Sherwin


Shelly and Sherwin-doo, back together again. I thought life was too
sweet.

Never figured out IPM? Still spraying poisons around to pollute the
environment?


Well Billygoat,

You are obviously not competent to use these chemicals and should stay
away from them for your own health's sake.

Hope you enjoy all those apples with the worms inside.


Sherwin


Insightful into the depths of your ignorance and stupidity.

In your drooling sarcasm, you didn't respond to:

Imidan 70-W

Active Ingredient:
Phosmet (70.0%)

Chemical Class:
Organophosphorous Pesticide ( nerve gas. It may not be toxic to you
but their may be pregnancies or small children in your area.))

ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Summary of Effects
Phosmet
This pesticide is toxic to fish and wildlife. For terrestrial uses, do
not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or
to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate
water by cleaning of equipment or disposal of wastes. Drift and runoff
from treated areas may be hazardous to aquatic organisms in adjacent
aquatic sites. This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct
treatment. Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting
the treatment area.
http://www.gowanco.com/ProductInfo~p...an%2070-W.aspx

Anyone with apples, may want to look at:
Pests of the Garden and Small Farm: A Grower's Guide to Using Less
Pesticide, Second edition
by Mary Louise Flint
http://www.amazon.com/Pests-Garden-S...0520218108/ref
=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241540176&sr=1-1
although it is primarily for orchards in California,

or browse the IPM books at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...pbooks&field-k
eywords=Integrated+Pest+Management+for+Apples&x=12 &y=20
and then see if they aren't available from the library.

For coddling moth see
http://www.gardensalive.com/article....&sid=143411&gc
lid=COe1qI_WpZoCFShRagod9RpU9g&bhcd2=1241543555

For Apple Maggot see
http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/tree006/tree006.htm

Sure, insecticides may be more thorough in eradicating the pest but it
poisons the environment, kills off pollinators, kills off fish which may
surpress mosquitos, and is a threat to human embryos, and small children.

IPM may not eradicate garden and orchard pests, it will make them more
manageable, preserve the environment, and give you and your's food free
from unnatural chemicals, about which we are still trying to figure out
the consequences of our living with them.

If you find that insecticides are the only way you have of growing a
given crop, you may want to re-think, if that crop is that important to
you and the planet.
--

- Billy

"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is
now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of
conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:44 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 26
Default Heirloom Apples

In article ,
sherwin dubren wrote:

sherwin dubren wrote:
Steve Peek wrote:
If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones
that taste unbelievably good) you have to check out:
http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm
gonna need more land.
Steve

Steve,

I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various
sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a
particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to
do that, but I couldn't figure it out.

These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever
possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot,
and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than
Rotenone, say Imidan.

Sherwin


It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove
postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom
Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense
my position. Nothing like a little censorship.

Sherwin


IIRC paranoia is a side effect of insecticide poisoning. Huffing the
lindane again, Doo?

http://chm.pops.int/Convention/Press...009/tabid/542/
language/en-US/Default.aspx

Governments unite to step-up reduction on global DDT reliance and add
nine new chemicals under international treaty

Geneva, 8 May 2009 Nine persistent organic pollutants (POPs) were
listed today under the Stockholm Convention. Over 160 Governments have
just concluded a one-week conference with practical decisions that will
strengthen a global effort to eradicate some of the most toxic chemicals
known to humankind.

The Conference of the Parties (COP) has marked a historic week for the
Stockholm Convention. For the first time, the Convention was amended to
include nine new chemicals. Many of these are still widely used today as
pesticides, flame retardants and in a number of other commercial uses.
łThis meeting in Geneva has culminated in a momentous day for the
Stockholm Convention. Its significance cannot be under-estimated. We now
have a clear signal that Governments around the world take seriously the
risks posed by such toxic chemicals. The tremendous impact of these
substances on human health and the environment has been acknowledged
today by adding nine new chemicals to the Convention. This shift
reflects international concern on the need to reduce and eventually
eliminate such substances throughout the global community,˛ said UN
Under-Secretary General and UNEP Executive, Achim Steiner.
(cut)
The Stockholm Convention targets certain hazardous pesticides and
industrial chemicals that can kill people, damage the nervous and immune
systems, cause cancer and reproductive disorders and interfere with
normal infant and child development.
The nine new chemicals now listed under the Stockholm Convention a
Alpha hexachlorocyclohexane to Annex A;
Beta hexachlorocyclohexane to Annex A;
Although the intentional use of alpha- and beta-HCH as an insecticide
was phased out years ago, these chemicals are still produced as an
unintentional by-product of lindane. Approximately 6-10 tons of other
isomers including alpha- and beta-HCH result from each ton of lindane
produced.
Hexabromodiphenyl ether and heptabromodiphenyl ether to Annex A;
Tetrabromodiphenyl ether and pentabromodiphenyl ether to Annex A;
Bromodiphenyl ether congeners are a group of brominated organic
substances that inhibit or suppress combustion in organic material,
which are used as additive flame retardants. Brominated diphenyl ethers
are mainly manufactured as commercial mixtures where several isomers,
congeners and small amounts of other substances occur.
Chlordecone to Annex A;
Chlordecone is a synthetic chlorinated organic compound, which was
mainly used as an agricultural pesticide. It was first produced in 1951
and introduced commercially in 1958. Current use or production of the
chemical is not reported.
Hexabromobiphenyl to Annex A;
Hexabromobiphenyl (HBB) is an industrial chemical that was used as a
flame retardant, mainly in the 1970s. Based on existing data, HBB is no
longer produced and is not used in new or existing products.
Lindane to Annex A;
Lindane was used as a broad-spectrum insecticide for seed and soil
treatment, foliar applications, tree and wood treatment and against
ectoparasites in both veterinary and human treatments. Lindane
production has decreased rapidly in recent years and only a few
countries still produce it.
Pentachlorobenzene to Annex A and C;
Pentachlorobenzene (PeCB) was used in PCB products, dyestuff carriers,
as a fungicide, a flame retardant and a chemical intermediate such as
the production of quintozene and it may still be used for this purpose.
PeCB is also produced unintentionally during combustion in thermal and
industrial processes. It appears as an impurity in products such as
solvents or pesticides.
Perfluorooctane sulfonic acid, its salts and perfluorooctane
sulfonyl fluoride to Annex A or B;
PFOS is both intentionally produced and an unintended degradation
product of related anthropogenic chemicals. The current intentional use
of PFOS is widespread and found in products such as in electric and
electronic parts, fire fighting foam, photo imaging, hydraulic fluids
and textiles. PFOS are still produced in several countries today.
The 12 initial POPs covered by the Convention include nine pesticides
(aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor,
hexachlorobenzene, mirex and toxaphene); two industrial chemicals (PCBs
as well as hexachlorobenzene, also used as a pesticide); and the
unintentional by-products, most importantly dioxins and furans.
Further information is available at http://www.pops.int or by emailing

--

- Billy

"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is
now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of
conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:13 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Heirloom Apples

"Steve Peek" wrote in message news:-
"sherwin dubren" wrote in message
sherwin dubren wrote:
Steve Peek wrote:


It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove
postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom
Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense
my position. Nothing like a little censorship.

Sherwin


I still have the entire discussion.
Steve


I do too.


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Old 12-05-2009, 01:02 PM
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Posts: 1
Smile

Noted that last comment and suggest a good book by Matthew Biggs on this subject. I believe he's website has details regarding the veg book. http://www.matthewbiggs.com

Helped me a lot.

A
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Old 13-05-2009, 07:04 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 110
Default Heirloom Apples

Wild Billy wrote:

You have to get the public and backyard orchardists to give up
clean unattacked fruit.

The point is that they aren't clean and the environment is polluted in
the process. Again, you don't quantify or qualify your response. All you
give us is probably . . .


Let me say that even some of the stronger chemicals, like Imidan are
burned off by sunlight after a week, or so. Nevertheless, I wash off
all the fruit I pick with soap. Those who are super concerned have
the option of peeling their fruit, since most of the chemicals do
not penetrate the skin of the fruit.

I know certain varieties can be grown
organically, but they usually are not the best tasting ones.

Can you name them, or do you just like the taste of pesticides?


I grow one of them, Williams Pride, a disease resistant apple from
Purdue U. There are others, like Pristine, etc. I tolerate my
Williams Pride because it is one of my few early rippening apples,
and the flavor is not too bad. The apples I really treasure are
not disease resistant, such as Honey Crisp, Golden Russet, Spigold,
etc. I have tried organic sprays and some of the milder orchard
sprays and got a lot of attacked apples. I bet you never heard of
some of these varieties, so you probably don't know what you are
missing.

By the way, don't you think you can cut out this juvenile 'doo' naming?


Sherwin

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Old 13-05-2009, 07:23 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Heirloom Apples

Wild Billy wrote:


Insightful into the depths of your ignorance and stupidity.

In your drooling sarcasm, you didn't respond to:

Imidan 70-W

Active Ingredient:
Phosmet (70.0%)

Chemical Class:
Organophosphorous Pesticide ( nerve gas. It may not be toxic to you
but their may be pregnancies or small children in your area.))


I don't spray if there are windy conditions or people.

ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Summary of Effects
Phosmet
This pesticide is toxic to fish and wildlife. For terrestrial uses, do
not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or
to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate
water by cleaning of equipment or disposal of wastes. Drift and runoff
from treated areas may be hazardous to aquatic organisms in adjacent
aquatic sites. This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct
treatment. Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting
the treatment area.
http://www.gowanco.com/ProductInfo~p...an%2070-W.aspx


Why don't you look up Rotenone. A spray classified as organic since
it is extracted from plants. There are findings now that it attacks
the human nervous system causing all kinds of problems like
Parkinson's disease.


Anyone with apples, may want to look at:
Pests of the Garden and Small Farm: A Grower's Guide to Using Less
Pesticide, Second edition
by Mary Louise FlintGarden-Small-Farm-Pesticide/dp/0520218108/ref
http://www.amazon.com/Pests-
=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241540176&sr=1-1
although it is primarily for orchards in California,


Many parts of California are not plagued by Codling Moths or
Apple Maggot.


or browse the IPM books at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...pbooks&field-k
eywords=Integrated+Pest+Management+for+Apples&x=12 &y=20
and then see if they aren't available from the library.

For coddling moth see
http://www.gardensalive.com/article....&sid=143411&gc
lid=COe1qI_WpZoCFShRagod9RpU9g&bhcd2=1241543555


The pests around me just laugh at Surround. It washes off with the
first rains, and clogs up your sprayers.

For Apple Maggot see
http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/tree006/tree006.htm


If you look at the PDF file in this reference, they talk about
quarantine of apple maggot areas and disposing of any fruit harboring
the apple maggot. Not a solution for me.


Sure, insecticides may be more thorough in eradicating the pest but it
poisons the environment, kills off pollinators,


Anybody who knows anything about spraying knows you don't spray until
after petal fall of the blossoms. Without pollen, the insects should
not be around.


kills off fish

You don't dump your chemicals into the sanitation system or a river.


which may
surpress mosquitos, and is a threat to human embryos, and small children.

IPM may not eradicate garden and orchard pests, it will make them more
manageable, preserve the environment, and give you and your's food free
from unnatural chemicals, about which we are still trying to figure out
the consequences of our living with them.

If you find that insecticides are the only way you have of growing a
given crop, you may want to re-think, if that crop is that important to
you and the planet.


In my case, I feel that proper usage of these chemicals will have a
negligible effect on the environment. Automobiles, planes, power
plants, etc. far out shadow anything I do in my backyard. If you have
never tasted a quality apple from the tree, you probably don't know
what you are missing.

Sherwin
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