Need to grow your own manure?
 

Well, while we wait for Shelly to pry his foot out of his mouth,
a new concern has arisen for organic farmers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-contain-antib
iotics

News*-* January 6, 2009
Worried about Antibiotics in Your Beef? Vegetables May Be No Better
New studies show vegetables like lettuce and potatoes--even organic
ones--may carry antibiotics
By*Matthew Cimitile

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections. Now scientists have
discovered that those drugs are sprouting up in unexpected places:
Vegetables such as corn, potatoes and lettuce absorb antibiotics when
grown in soil fertilized with livestock manure, according to tests
conducted at the University of Minnesota.
Today, close to 70 percent of all antibiotics and related drugs used in
the United States are routinely fed to cattle, pigs and poultry,
according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Although this practice
sustains a growing demand for meat, it also generates public health
fears associated with the expanding presence of antibiotics in the food
chain.
People have long been exposed to antibiotics in meat and milk. Now, the
new research shows that they also may be
ingesting them from vegetables, perhaps even ones grown on organic farms.
The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, a drug widely used to
treat diseases in livestock. In another study two years later, corn,
lettuce and potato were planted in soil treated with liquid hog manure.
They, too, accumulated concentrations of an antibiotic, named
Sulfamethazine, also commonly used in livestock.
As the amount of antibiotics in the soil increased, so too did the
levels taken up by the corn, potatoes and other plants.
"Around 90 percent of these drugs that are administered to animals end
up being excreted either as urine or manure," said Holly Dolliver, a
member of the Minnesota research team and now a professor of crop and
soil sciences at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls. "A vast
majority of that manure is then used as an important input for 9.2
million hectares of (U.S.) agricultural land."
Manure, widely used as a substitute for chemical fertilizer, adds
nutrients that help plants grow. It is often used in organic farming.
The scientists found that although their crops were only propagated in
greenhouses for six weeks--far less than a normal growing
season--antibiotics were absorbed readily into their leaves. If grown
for a full season, drugs most likely would find their way into parts of
plants that humans eat, said Dolliver.
Less than 0.1 percent of antibiotics applied to soil were absorbed into
the corn, lettuce and other plants. Though a tiny amount, health
implications for people consuming such small, cumulative doses are
largely unknown.
"The antibiotic accumulation in plants is just another negative
consequence of our animal agriculture industry and not surprising given
the quantity fed to livestock," said Steve Roach, public health program
director for the non-profit Food Animal Concerns Trust.
For highly processed plants such as corn, the drugs would most likely be
removed, added Dolliver. But many food crops such as spinach and lettuce
are not processed, only washed, allowing antibiotics to remain.
"Nobody particularly eats corn or soybean directly," said Satish Gupta,
a University of Minnesota professor of soil science and study leader.
"But there are crops I am much more worried about, like cabbage and
lettuce, because these are leaves we eat directly and consume raw."
One finding that particularly worries food scientists is the
accumulation of antibiotics within potato tubers. Tubers are an
enlarged, underground stem that uptake and store nutrients from the
soil. In crops like potatoes, carrots and radishes, it is the part
humans eat.
"Since these tubers and root crops are in direct contact with the soil
they may show a greater propensity for [antibiotic] uptake," said Gupta.
Health officials fear that eating vegetables and meat laced with drugs
meant to treat infections can promote resistant strains of bacteria in
food and the environment.
Roach said "the clearest public health implication" from treating
livestock with antibiotics is the development of resistant bacteria that
reduces the effectiveness of human medicine. Past studies have shown
overuse of antibiotics reduces their ability to cure infections. Over
time, certain antibiotics are rendered ineffective.
Scientists believe antibiotics also may have contributed to the
explosive rise in asthma and allergies in children over the last 20
years. Researchers at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, following 448
children from birth for seven years, reported that children who received
antibiotics within their first six months had a higher risk of
developing allergies and asthma.
Such health concerns led the European Union in 2006 to ban antibiotic
use as feed additives for promoting livestock growth. But in the United
States, nearly 25 million pounds of antibiotics per year, up from 16
million in the mid 1980s, are given to healthy animals for agriculture
purposes, according to a 2000 report by the Union of Concerned
Scientists.
Livestock producers contend that the spread of resistant strains of
bacteria stems from the overuse of all medicines to treat infectious
diseases in both humans and animals. Removal of antibiotics, they say,
would only lead to increased disease in animals and reduction in food
safety.
Tainted manure can impact more than just the soil. Once applied to the
land, antibiotics can infiltrate water supplies as it seeps through the
soil into aquifers or spills into surface water due to runoff, explained
Dolliver.
"The other thing to remember is that the field is not a sterile
environment. Mice, rabbit and foxes traverse farmland while other
animals graze, all with the potential to become vectors for the
resistant bacteria organisms and spread it throughout different animal
populations," said Pat Millner, a U.S. Department of Agriculture
microbiologist based in Maryland.
The presence of antibiotics within the food chain is likely to increase
as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has permitted greater use of
controversial drugs on farm animals. For example, this past October, the
FDA dropped plans to halt use of cefquinome, a potent antibiotic, after
it said in July it would push against its use in animals.
Even if a product has the USDA organic label, it still can harbor traces
of antibiotics, Gupta said. While there are restrictions on use of raw
manure in U.S. organic farming because of concern over bacteria, no such
rules are in place regarding antibiotics or hormones. Not all organic
growers use manure with antibiotics, but many do, said Gupta.
High-temperature composting of manure, designed to kill pathogens, is
required for crops certified under the USDA label. That could eliminate
some antibiotics. But growers are not required to check for the drugs.
"We urgently need to find some way to put guidelines in place on organic
food regarding these chemicals," Gupta said.
Gupta said all growers should be told that composting can help.
Composting decays piles of food or manure as microbes decompose organic
matter using oxygen to survive, grow and reproduce. Heating up the
material creates conditions conducive for bacteria to break down
antibiotics and pathogens.
A pilot study by USDA scientists in Maryland added straw to a beef
cattle manure pile, heating up the dense material while allowing spaces
for air to penetrate. The higher temperatures sped up the decaying
process of harmful substances.
"The process happens very rapidly, in this study it took about 10 days,"
said Millner. "This is not too surprising since antibiotics are not a
thermally stable chemical compound."
In another study, the same researchers who discovered the uptake of
antibiotics by plants tested four of these drugs to determine how
effective composting would be in reducing harmful chemicals in turkey
manure. After 25 days using a combination of natural heat generated by
microbial activity, three of the four antibiotics broke down under the
high energy conditions created, said Dolliver.
Composting reduced concentrations of some antibiotics by up to 99
percent. "These findings suggest manure management can be an important
strategy for reducing the overall impact for these compounds making
their way into the environment," said Dolliver.
Many questions still remain. Currently, projects are underway to grow
crops for a full season in antibiotic laced manure, to grow them in
fields rather than greenhouses and to analyze the concentrations and
locations of the antibiotics within the plants. Researchers also want to
determine which antibiotics are more likely to be picked up, which
plants are more prone to uptake, what composting methods are most
effective in reducing harmful material in manure and what antibiotics
may be resistant to composting.
There are serious societal implications regarding the discoveries
already made and the questions yet to be answered, Gupta concluded. "We
are a chemical society and humans are the main user of pharmaceutical
products," said Gupta. "We need a better understanding of what takes
place when chemicals are applied to sources of food and must be more
vigilant about regulating what we use to grow food and what we put in
our bodies."
This article originally ran at Environmental Health News, a news source
published by Environmental Health Sciences, a nonprofit media company.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Zunx_goz4


http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/2...ra_hass_on_the

Need to grow your own manure?
 

Billy wrote:
Well, while we wait for Shelly to pry his foot out of his mouth,
a new concern has arisen for organic farmers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-contain-antib
iotics

News - January 6, 2009
Worried about Antibiotics in Your Beef? Vegetables May Be No Better
New studies show vegetables like lettuce and potatoes--even organic
ones--may carry antibiotics
By Matthew Cimitile

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections. Now scientists have
discovered that those drugs are sprouting up in unexpected places:
Vegetables such as corn, potatoes and lettuce absorb antibiotics when
grown in soil fertilized with livestock manure, according to tests
conducted at the University of Minnesota.
Today, close to 70 percent of all antibiotics and related drugs used in
the United States are routinely fed to cattle, pigs and poultry,
according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Although this practice
sustains a growing demand for meat, it also generates public health
fears associated with the expanding presence of antibiotics in the food
chain.
People have long been exposed to antibiotics in meat and milk. Now, the
new research shows that they also may be
ingesting them from vegetables, perhaps even ones grown on organic farms.
The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, a drug widely used to
treat diseases in livestock. In another study two years later, corn,
lettuce and potato were planted in soil treated with liquid hog manure.
They, too, accumulated concentrations of an antibiotic, named
Sulfamethazine, also commonly used in livestock.
As the amount of antibiotics in the soil increased, so too did the
levels taken up by the corn, potatoes and other plants.
"Around 90 percent of these drugs that are administered to animals end
up being excreted either as urine or manure," said Holly Dolliver, a
member of the Minnesota research team and now a professor of crop and
soil sciences at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls. "A vast
majority of that manure is then used as an important input for 9.2
million hectares of (U.S.) agricultural land."
Manure, widely used as a substitute for chemical fertilizer, adds
nutrients that help plants grow. It is often used in organic farming.
The scientists found that although their crops were only propagated in
greenhouses for six weeks--far less than a normal growing
season--antibiotics were absorbed readily into their leaves. If grown
for a full season, drugs most likely would find their way into parts of
plants that humans eat, said Dolliver.
Less than 0.1 percent of antibiotics applied to soil were absorbed into
the corn, lettuce and other plants. Though a tiny amount, health
implications for people consuming such small, cumulative doses are
largely unknown.
"The antibiotic accumulation in plants is just another negative
consequence of our animal agriculture industry and not surprising given
the quantity fed to livestock," said Steve Roach, public health program
director for the non-profit Food Animal Concerns Trust.
For highly processed plants such as corn, the drugs would most likely be
removed, added Dolliver. But many food crops such as spinach and lettuce
are not processed, only washed, allowing antibiotics to remain.
"Nobody particularly eats corn or soybean directly," said Satish Gupta,
a University of Minnesota professor of soil science and study leader.
"But there are crops I am much more worried about, like cabbage and
lettuce, because these are leaves we eat directly and consume raw."
One finding that particularly worries food scientists is the
accumulation of antibiotics within potato tubers. Tubers are an
enlarged, underground stem that uptake and store nutrients from the
soil. In crops like potatoes, carrots and radishes, it is the part
humans eat.
"Since these tubers and root crops are in direct contact with the soil
they may show a greater propensity for [antibiotic] uptake," said Gupta.
Health officials fear that eating vegetables and meat laced with drugs
meant to treat infections can promote resistant strains of bacteria in
food and the environment.
Roach said "the clearest public health implication" from treating
livestock with antibiotics is the development of resistant bacteria that
reduces the effectiveness of human medicine. Past studies have shown
overuse of antibiotics reduces their ability to cure infections. Over
time, certain antibiotics are rendered ineffective.
Scientists believe antibiotics also may have contributed to the
explosive rise in asthma and allergies in children over the last 20
years. Researchers at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, following 448
children from birth for seven years, reported that children who received
antibiotics within their first six months had a higher risk of
developing allergies and asthma.
Such health concerns led the European Union in 2006 to ban antibiotic
use as feed additives for promoting livestock growth. But in the United
States, nearly 25 million pounds of antibiotics per year, up from 16
million in the mid 1980s, are given to healthy animals for agriculture
purposes, according to a 2000 report by the Union of Concerned
Scientists.
Livestock producers contend that the spread of resistant strains of
bacteria stems from the overuse of all medicines to treat infectious
diseases in both humans and animals. Removal of antibiotics, they say,
would only lead to increased disease in animals and reduction in food
safety.
Tainted manure can impact more than just the soil. Once applied to the
land, antibiotics can infiltrate water supplies as it seeps through the
soil into aquifers or spills into surface water due to runoff, explained
Dolliver.
"The other thing to remember is that the field is not a sterile
environment. Mice, rabbit and foxes traverse farmland while other
animals graze, all with the potential to become vectors for the
resistant bacteria organisms and spread it throughout different animal
populations," said Pat Millner, a U.S. Department of Agriculture
microbiologist based in Maryland.
The presence of antibiotics within the food chain is likely to increase
as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has permitted greater use of
controversial drugs on farm animals. For example, this past October, the
FDA dropped plans to halt use of cefquinome, a potent antibiotic, after
it said in July it would push against its use in animals.
Even if a product has the USDA organic label, it still can harbor traces
of antibiotics, Gupta said. While there are restrictions on use of raw
manure in U.S. organic farming because of concern over bacteria, no such
rules are in place regarding antibiotics or hormones. Not all organic
growers use manure with antibiotics, but many do, said Gupta.
High-temperature composting of manure, designed to kill pathogens, is
required for crops certified under the USDA label. That could eliminate
some antibiotics. But growers are not required to check for the drugs.
"We urgently need to find some way to put guidelines in place on organic
food regarding these chemicals," Gupta said.
Gupta said all growers should be told that composting can help.
Composting decays piles of food or manure as microbes decompose organic
matter using oxygen to survive, grow and reproduce. Heating up the
material creates conditions conducive for bacteria to break down
antibiotics and pathogens.
A pilot study by USDA scientists in Maryland added straw to a beef
cattle manure pile, heating up the dense material while allowing spaces
for air to penetrate. The higher temperatures sped up the decaying
process of harmful substances.
"The process happens very rapidly, in this study it took about 10 days,"
said Millner. "This is not too surprising since antibiotics are not a
thermally stable chemical compound."
In another study, the same researchers who discovered the uptake of
antibiotics by plants tested four of these drugs to determine how
effective composting would be in reducing harmful chemicals in turkey
manure. After 25 days using a combination of natural heat generated by
microbial activity, three of the four antibiotics broke down under the
high energy conditions created, said Dolliver.
Composting reduced concentrations of some antibiotics by up to 99
percent. "These findings suggest manure management can be an important
strategy for reducing the overall impact for these compounds making
their way into the environment," said Dolliver.
Many questions still remain. Currently, projects are underway to grow
crops for a full season in antibiotic laced manure, to grow them in
fields rather than greenhouses and to analyze the concentrations and
locations of the antibiotics within the plants. Researchers also want to
determine which antibiotics are more likely to be picked up, which
plants are more prone to uptake, what composting methods are most
effective in reducing harmful material in manure and what antibiotics
may be resistant to composting.
There are serious societal implications regarding the discoveries
already made and the questions yet to be answered, Gupta concluded. "We
are a chemical society and humans are the main user of pharmaceutical
products," said Gupta. "We need a better understanding of what takes
place when chemicals are applied to sources of food and must be more
vigilant about regulating what we use to grow food and what we put in
our bodies."
This article originally ran at Environmental Health News, a news source
published by Environmental Health Sciences, a nonprofit media company.

I wonder about these things. Did not notice mention of quantities but
with today's analytical chemistry instrumentation you can pick up parts
per trillion. Personally I'm not scared of anything at that level.
OTOH an organic farmer that I used to correspond with pointed out that
strong insecticides are often sprayed on manure to keep down flies.
That could be something to worry about.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
Frank wrote:

Billy wrote:
Well, while we wait for Shelly to pry his foot out of his mouth,
a new concern has arisen for organic farmers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-contain-antib
iotics

News - January 6, 2009
Worried about Antibiotics in Your Beef? Vegetables May Be No Better
New studies show vegetables like lettuce and potatoes--even organic
ones--may carry antibiotics
By Matthew Cimitile

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections. Now scientists have
discovered that those drugs are sprouting up in unexpected places:
Vegetables such as corn, potatoes and lettuce absorb antibiotics when
grown in soil fertilized with livestock manure, according to tests
conducted at the University of Minnesota.
Today, close to 70 percent of all antibiotics and related drugs used in
the United States are routinely fed to cattle, pigs and poultry,
according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Although this practice
sustains a growing demand for meat, it also generates public health
fears associated with the expanding presence of antibiotics in the food
chain.
People have long been exposed to antibiotics in meat and milk. Now, the
new research shows that they also may be
ingesting them from vegetables, perhaps even ones grown on organic farms.
The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, a drug widely used to
treat diseases in livestock. In another study two years later, corn,
lettuce and potato were planted in soil treated with liquid hog manure.
They, too, accumulated concentrations of an antibiotic, named
Sulfamethazine, also commonly used in livestock.
As the amount of antibiotics in the soil increased, so too did the
levels taken up by the corn, potatoes and other plants.
"Around 90 percent of these drugs that are administered to animals end
up being excreted either as urine or manure," said Holly Dolliver, a
member of the Minnesota research team and now a professor of crop and
soil sciences at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls. "A vast
majority of that manure is then used as an important input for 9.2
million hectares of (U.S.) agricultural land."
Manure, widely used as a substitute for chemical fertilizer, adds
nutrients that help plants grow. It is often used in organic farming.
The scientists found that although their crops were only propagated in
greenhouses for six weeks--far less than a normal growing
season--antibiotics were absorbed readily into their leaves. If grown
for a full season, drugs most likely would find their way into parts of
plants that humans eat, said Dolliver.
Less than 0.1 percent of antibiotics applied to soil were absorbed into
the corn, lettuce and other plants. Though a tiny amount, health
implications for people consuming such small, cumulative doses are
largely unknown.
"The antibiotic accumulation in plants is just another negative
consequence of our animal agriculture industry and not surprising given
the quantity fed to livestock," said Steve Roach, public health program
director for the non-profit Food Animal Concerns Trust.
For highly processed plants such as corn, the drugs would most likely be
removed, added Dolliver. But many food crops such as spinach and lettuce
are not processed, only washed, allowing antibiotics to remain.
"Nobody particularly eats corn or soybean directly," said Satish Gupta,
a University of Minnesota professor of soil science and study leader.
"But there are crops I am much more worried about, like cabbage and
lettuce, because these are leaves we eat directly and consume raw."
One finding that particularly worries food scientists is the
accumulation of antibiotics within potato tubers. Tubers are an
enlarged, underground stem that uptake and store nutrients from the
soil. In crops like potatoes, carrots and radishes, it is the part
humans eat.
"Since these tubers and root crops are in direct contact with the soil
they may show a greater propensity for [antibiotic] uptake," said Gupta.
Health officials fear that eating vegetables and meat laced with drugs
meant to treat infections can promote resistant strains of bacteria in
food and the environment.
Roach said "the clearest public health implication" from treating
livestock with antibiotics is the development of resistant bacteria that
reduces the effectiveness of human medicine. Past studies have shown
overuse of antibiotics reduces their ability to cure infections. Over
time, certain antibiotics are rendered ineffective.
Scientists believe antibiotics also may have contributed to the
explosive rise in asthma and allergies in children over the last 20
years. Researchers at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, following 448
children from birth for seven years, reported that children who received
antibiotics within their first six months had a higher risk of
developing allergies and asthma.
Such health concerns led the European Union in 2006 to ban antibiotic
use as feed additives for promoting livestock growth. But in the United
States, nearly 25 million pounds of antibiotics per year, up from 16
million in the mid 1980s, are given to healthy animals for agriculture
purposes, according to a 2000 report by the Union of Concerned
Scientists.
Livestock producers contend that the spread of resistant strains of
bacteria stems from the overuse of all medicines to treat infectious
diseases in both humans and animals. Removal of antibiotics, they say,
would only lead to increased disease in animals and reduction in food
safety.
Tainted manure can impact more than just the soil. Once applied to the
land, antibiotics can infiltrate water supplies as it seeps through the
soil into aquifers or spills into surface water due to runoff, explained
Dolliver.
"The other thing to remember is that the field is not a sterile
environment. Mice, rabbit and foxes traverse farmland while other
animals graze, all with the potential to become vectors for the
resistant bacteria organisms and spread it throughout different animal
populations," said Pat Millner, a U.S. Department of Agriculture
microbiologist based in Maryland.
The presence of antibiotics within the food chain is likely to increase
as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has permitted greater use of
controversial drugs on farm animals. For example, this past October, the
FDA dropped plans to halt use of cefquinome, a potent antibiotic, after
it said in July it would push against its use in animals.
Even if a product has the USDA organic label, it still can harbor traces
of antibiotics, Gupta said. While there are restrictions on use of raw
manure in U.S. organic farming because of concern over bacteria, no such
rules are in place regarding antibiotics or hormones. Not all organic
growers use manure with antibiotics, but many do, said Gupta.
High-temperature composting of manure, designed to kill pathogens, is
required for crops certified under the USDA label. That could eliminate
some antibiotics. But growers are not required to check for the drugs.
"We urgently need to find some way to put guidelines in place on organic
food regarding these chemicals," Gupta said.
Gupta said all growers should be told that composting can help.
Composting decays piles of food or manure as microbes decompose organic
matter using oxygen to survive, grow and reproduce. Heating up the
material creates conditions conducive for bacteria to break down
antibiotics and pathogens.
A pilot study by USDA scientists in Maryland added straw to a beef
cattle manure pile, heating up the dense material while allowing spaces
for air to penetrate. The higher temperatures sped up the decaying
process of harmful substances.
"The process happens very rapidly, in this study it took about 10 days,"
said Millner. "This is not too surprising since antibiotics are not a
thermally stable chemical compound."
In another study, the same researchers who discovered the uptake of
antibiotics by plants tested four of these drugs to determine how
effective composting would be in reducing harmful chemicals in turkey
manure. After 25 days using a combination of natural heat generated by
microbial activity, three of the four antibiotics broke down under the
high energy conditions created, said Dolliver.
Composting reduced concentrations of some antibiotics by up to 99
percent. "These findings suggest manure management can be an important
strategy for reducing the overall impact for these compounds making
their way into the environment," said Dolliver.
Many questions still remain. Currently, projects are underway to grow
crops for a full season in antibiotic laced manure, to grow them in
fields rather than greenhouses and to analyze the concentrations and
locations of the antibiotics within the plants. Researchers also want to
determine which antibiotics are more likely to be picked up, which
plants are more prone to uptake, what composting methods are most
effective in reducing harmful material in manure and what antibiotics
may be resistant to composting.
There are serious societal implications regarding the discoveries
already made and the questions yet to be answered, Gupta concluded. "We
are a chemical society and humans are the main user of pharmaceutical
products," said Gupta. "We need a better understanding of what takes
place when chemicals are applied to sources of food and must be more
vigilant about regulating what we use to grow food and what we put in
our bodies."
This article originally ran at Environmental Health News, a news source
published by Environmental Health Sciences, a nonprofit media company.

I wonder about these things. Did not notice mention of quantities but
with today's analytical chemistry instrumentation you can pick up parts
per trillion. Personally I'm not scared of anything at that level.
OTOH an organic farmer that I used to correspond with pointed out that
strong insecticides are often sprayed on manure to keep down flies.
That could be something to worry about.

It's not the possibility that eating antibiotics would cause an
incident. It's when antibiotics become so ubiquitous in the environment,
that the bugs develop a tolerance to them, and then they become
worthless for saving lives.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Zunx_goz4


http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/2...ra_hass_on_the

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they differntiate
between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals. Our cattle are
only ever given anitbiotics if they have a problem like an infection and
then it's usually only one jab that has a 3 day life.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm
animals to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they
differntiate between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals.

Aparently the majority does and even 'grass-fed' may mean grass finished.

David

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they differntiate
between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals. Our cattle are
only ever given anitbiotics if they have a problem like an infection and
then it's usually only one jab that has a 3 day life.

Fran, ya gotta get out more Dear. 24 Feb 2009
http://www.rsca.org.au/media-centre/...ive-farms.html :

"Antibiotic resistance is becoming a big threat to the health of Australians
and is increasingly being linked to the food we eat.

In Australia, more than two thirds of antibiotic use involves farm animals
and those antibiotics are quite similar to those used to fight infections in
people.

Speaking today at the RSPCA's annual Scientific Seminar, Dr Peter Collignon
will discuss how the wide use of antibiotics in intensive farming systems,
to prevent disease and promote faster growth, impacts human health by aiding
the spread of resistance bacteria".

Now, we Americans also have our waste treatment plants hyping the organic
feel good benefits of their by-products recycling programs, steriods and
antiboitics and many other meds. This already affects the Salmon industry.
Often wondered about human waste ferts used in 3rd World. They do not
always follow the entire protocol of meds and hence we have Drug Resist. TB
and such.

But I do have to ask what does this do to the naturally occuring e.coli and
other potentially harmful pathogens in the soil? do they start on the path
of drug resistence? we don't have a lot of research on this as yet.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"gunner" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they differntiate
between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals. Our cattle are
only ever given anitbiotics if they have a problem like an infection and
then it's usually only one jab that has a 3 day life.

Fran, ya gotta get out more Dear.

No, I don't need to get out more but you should pay attention to what I
write, not what you think I write.

The article that Billy posted reported only on intensively farmed animals.
There are indeed other forms of farming animals that does not involve the
use of antibiotics. We do the latter.

24 Feb 2009
http://www.rsca.org.au/media-centre/...ive-farms.html :

"Antibiotic resistance is becoming a big threat to the health of
Australians and is increasingly being linked to the food we eat.

This cite too is only about intensive farming. We too have intensive
farming however, I was not complaining about the existence of intensive
farming but the fact that the artcile made no attempt to mention that there
was any form of farming OTHER than that which involved the use of
antibiotics. Sloppy reporting because it made no attempt to differentiate.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm
animals to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they
differntiate between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals.

Aparently the majority does and even 'grass-fed' may mean grass finished.

Yebbet.... there is nothing as good as grassfed beef from the cradle to the
abattoir.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"gunner" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they differntiate
between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals. Our cattle are
only ever given anitbiotics if they have a problem like an infection and
then it's usually only one jab that has a 3 day life.

Fran, ya gotta get out more Dear.

No, I don't need to get out more but you should pay attention to what I
write, not what you think I write.

The article that Billy posted reported only on intensively farmed animals.
There are indeed other forms of farming animals that does not involve the
use of antibiotics. We do the latter.

24 Feb 2009
http://www.rsca.org.au/media-centre/...tics-on-intens
ive-farms.html :

"Antibiotic resistance is becoming a big threat to the health of
Australians and is increasingly being linked to the food we eat.

This cite too is only about intensive farming. We too have intensive
farming however, I was not complaining about the existence of intensive
farming but the fact that the artcile made no attempt to mention that there
was any form of farming OTHER than that which involved the use of
antibiotics. Sloppy reporting because it made no attempt to differentiate.

Follow-up

This point was made in the Letters to the Editor in the June, '09
Scientific American. The author, Nathan Fiala, responded that in
2000, then president of the U.S. National Farmers Union, Leland Swenson,
in testimony given to the House Judiciary Committee, claimed that
4 companies produce 81% of the beef grown in this country. Fiala claims
that companies of this size must of necessity be using CAFO. Americans,
on average, eat about 100 lbs of beef/year/person.

Secondly, he states, "that to meet the increased consumption worldwide,
CAFO are the fastest-growing production method in developing countries,
and they most likely are the future of beef production for everyone
around the globe."

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the American
life style, that was based on being the only major industrial country
not in ruins after WWII. For a short time, we had the stay at home mom,
whose family could live well on the husbands wages. That time is long
gone, and real income for most Americans has remained flat for the last
30 years, while the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.
With another 3 BILLION people due to join the world's population in the
next 40 years, the likelihood is that instead of emerging countries
eating like the industrialized countries, the industrialized countries
will need to learn to eat like third world countries. Then, of course,
there is the problem that a 1/3 of the worlds population, through no
fault of their own, lives on $2/day, or less.

It gives small satisfaction, that in the future, as now, the best food
you can get, is what you grow yourself. Faced with factory food,
clean, fresh produce will only become more valuable, and if Monsanto
has their way, more expensive to grow.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"gunner" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
"Billy" wrote in message

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections.

The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, ......

Jeeze Louise! More bloody sloppy reporting. Why don't they
differntiate
between Feedlot animals and grass fed animals!

Or perhaps all beef in the US comes from feedlot animals. Our cattle
are
only ever given anitbiotics if they have a problem like an infection and
then it's usually only one jab that has a 3 day life.

Fran, ya gotta get out more Dear.

No, I don't need to get out more but you should pay attention to what I
write, not what you think I write.

The article that Billy posted reported only on intensively farmed animals.
There are indeed other forms of farming animals that does not involve the
use of antibiotics. We do the latter.

24 Feb 2009
http://www.rsca.org.au/media-centre/...iotics-on-inte
ns
ive-farms.html :

"Antibiotic resistance is becoming a big threat to the health of
Australians and is increasingly being linked to the food we eat.

This cite too is only about intensive farming. We too have intensive
farming however, I was not complaining about the existence of intensive
farming but the fact that the artcile made no attempt to mention that there
was any form of farming OTHER than that which involved the use of
antibiotics. Sloppy reporting because it made no attempt to differentiate.

Follow-up

This point was made in the Letters to the Editor in the June, '09
Scientific American. The author, Nathan Fiala, responded that in
2000, then president of the U.S. National Farmers Union, Leland Swenson,
in testimony given to the House Judiciary Committee, claimed that
4 companies produce 81% of the beef grown in this country. Fiala claims
that companies of this size must of necessity be using CAFO. Americans,
on average, eat about 100 lbs of beef/year/person.

Secondly, he states, "that to meet the increased consumption worldwide,
CAFO are the fastest-growing production method in developing countries,
and they most likely are the future of beef production for everyone
around the globe."

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the American
life style, that was based on being the only major industrial country
not in ruins after WWII. For a short time, we had the stay at home mom,
whose family could live well on the husbands wages. That time is long
gone, and real income for most Americans has remained flat for the last
30 years, while the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.
With another 3 BILLION people due to join the world's population in the
next 40 years, the likelihood is that instead of emerging countries
eating like the industrialized countries, the industrialized countries
will need to learn to eat like third world countries. Then, of course,
there is the problem that a 1/3 of the worlds population, through no
fault of their own, lives on $2/day, or less.

It gives small satisfaction, that in the future, as now, the best food
you can get, is what you grow yourself. Faced with factory food,
clean, fresh produce will only become more valuable, and if Monsanto
has their way, more expensive to grow.

May be useful

http://tinyurl.com/mmczq6

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

It gives small satisfaction, that in the future, as now, the best food
you can get, is what you grow yourself. Faced with factory food,
clean, fresh produce will only become more valuable, and if Monsanto
has their way, more expensive to grow.

May be useful

http://tinyurl.com/mmczq6

Bill

Maybe, maybe not.

Processed carbohydrates seem to be starving us of needed nutrients.
Whole grain carbohydrates are better but far from perfect.
Like da man said,"Eat more plants, mostly leafy ones, and a little meat."

http://www.environnement.ens.fr/pers...mistake_jared_
diamond.pdf
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

It gives small satisfaction, that in the future, as now, the best food
you can get, is what you grow yourself. Faced with factory food,
clean, fresh produce will only become more valuable, and if Monsanto
has their way, more expensive to grow.

May be useful

http://tinyurl.com/mmczq6

Bill

Maybe, maybe not.

Processed carbohydrates seem to be starving us of needed nutrients.
Whole grain carbohydrates are better but far from perfect.
Like da man said,"Eat more plants, mostly leafy ones, and a little meat."

http://www.environnement.ens.fr/pers...mistake_jared_
diamond.pdf

While looking about for info on Chinese salads found

http://chineseculture.about.com/library/symbol/

Salad yielded

http://chineseculture.about.com/library/symbol/np/nc_salad.htm

Can't recall ever seeing A salad offering in local Chinese places
but Japanese offer a variety. Suno Muno SP Cucumber Salad nice and
fresh in area .

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"Billy" wrote in message

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the American
life style, that was based on being the only major industrial country
not in ruins after WWII. For a short time, we had the stay at home mom,
whose family could live well on the husbands wages. That time is long
gone, and real income for most Americans has remained flat for the last
30 years, while the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.

Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that China now owns
nearly all American debt. The next few years could be interesting.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

On Jun 15, 1:10*pm, Billy wrote:
Well, while we wait for Shelly to pry his foot out of his mouth,
a new concern has arisen for organic farmers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...bles-contain-a....
iotics



Oh shit.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

On Jun 20, 9:54�pm, Pork Hop wrote:
On Jun 15, 1:10�pm, Billy wrote:

Well, while we wait for Shelly to pry his foot out of his mouth,
a new concern has arisen for organic farmers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...bles-contain-a....
iotics

Oh shit.

The link, she is broken, Senor.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in
:

"Billy" wrote in message

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the
American life style, that was based on being the only major
industrial country not in ruins after WWII. For a short time,
we had the stay at home mom, whose family could live well on
the husbands wages. That time is long gone, and real income for
most Americans has remained flat for the last 30 years, while
the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.

Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that
China now owns nearly all American debt. The next few years
could be interesting.

i know you're in OZ, but do you know if it's difficult for Americans
to emigrate to NZ (or OZ, as well)?
lee eyeing 709 hectacres in NZ)

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article
,
Special Agent Melvin Purvis wrote:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...bles-contain-a...
iotics

No problamo. Zee canpaneros have feexed eet.
You know how eet is. Gringos don't even know zee metric system, and you
can't leave zeem alone weeth a stinkin' URL, weethout zeem mucking
eet up.

Andale muchachos, before zai screw eet up again.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...s-contain-anti
biotics

January 6, 2009
Worried about Antibiotics in Your Beef? Vegetables May Be No Better
New studies show vegetables like lettuce and potatoes--even organic
ones--may carry antibiotics
ByÂ*Matthew Cimitile

For half a century, meat producers have fed antibiotics to farm animals
to increase their growth and stave off infections. Now scientists have
discovered that those drugs are sprouting up in unexpected places:
Vegetables such as corn, potatoes and lettuce absorb antibiotics when
grown in soil fertilized with livestock manure, according to tests
conducted at the University of Minnesota.
Today, close to 70 percent of all antibiotics and related drugs used in
the United States are routinely fed to cattle, pigs and poultry,
according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Although this practice
sustains a growing demand for meat, it also generates public health
fears associated with the expanding presence of antibiotics in the food
chain.
People have long been exposed to antibiotics in meat and milk. Now, the
new research shows that they also may be
ingesting them from vegetables, perhaps even ones grown on organic farms.
The Minnesota researchers planted corn, green onion and cabbage in
manure-treated soil in 2005 to evaluate the environmental impacts of
feeding antibiotics to livestock. Six weeks later, the crops were
analyzed and found to absorb chlortetracycline, a drug widely used to
treat diseases in livestock. In another study two years later, corn,
lettuce and potato were planted in soil treated with liquid hog manure.
They, too, accumulated concentrations of an antibiotic, named
Sulfamethazine, also commonly used in livestock.
As the amount of antibiotics in the soil increased, so too did the
levels taken up by the corn, potatoes and other plants.
"Around 90 percent of these drugs that are administered to animals end
up being excreted either as urine or manure," said Holly Dolliver, a
member of the Minnesota research team and now a professor of crop and
soil sciences at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls. "A vast
majority of that manure is then used as an important input for 9.2
million hectares of (U.S.) agricultural land."
Manure, widely used as a substitute for chemical fertilizer, adds
nutrients that help plants grow. It is often used in organic farming.
The scientists found that although their crops were only propagated in
greenhouses for six weeks--far less than a normal growing
season--antibiotics were absorbed readily into their leaves. If grown
for a full season, drugs most likely would find their way into parts of
plants that humans eat, said Dolliver.
Less than 0.1 percent of antibiotics applied to soil were absorbed into
the corn, lettuce and other plants. Though a tiny amount, health
implications for people consuming such small, cumulative doses are
largely unknown.
"The antibiotic accumulation in plants is just another negative
consequence of our animal agriculture industry and not surprising given
the quantity fed to livestock," said Steve Roach, public health program
director for the non-profit Food Animal Concerns Trust.
For highly processed plants such as corn, the drugs would most likely be
removed, added Dolliver. But many food crops such as spinach and lettuce
are not processed, only washed, allowing antibiotics to remain.
"Nobody particularly eats corn or soybean directly," said Satish Gupta,
a University of Minnesota professor of soil science and study leader.
"But there are crops I am much more worried about, like cabbage and
lettuce, because these are leaves we eat directly and consume raw."
One finding that particularly worries food scientists is the
accumulation of antibiotics within potato tubers. Tubers are an
enlarged, underground stem that uptake and store nutrients from the
soil. In crops like potatoes, carrots and radishes, it is the part
humans eat.
"Since these tubers and root crops are in direct contact with the soil
they may show a greater propensity for [antibiotic] uptake," said Gupta.
Health officials fear that eating vegetables and meat laced with drugs
meant to treat infections can promote resistant strains of bacteria in
food and the environment.
Roach said "the clearest public health implication" from treating
livestock with antibiotics is the development of resistant bacteria that
reduces the effectiveness of human medicine. Past studies have shown
overuse of antibiotics reduces their ability to cure infections. Over
time, certain antibiotics are rendered ineffective.
Scientists believe antibiotics also may have contributed to the
explosive rise in asthma and allergies in children over the last 20
years. Researchers at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, following 448
children from birth for seven years, reported that children who received
antibiotics within their first six months had a higher risk of
developing allergies and asthma.
Such health concerns led the European Union in 2006 to ban antibiotic
use as feed additives for promoting livestock growth. But in the United
States, nearly 25 million pounds of antibiotics per year, up from 16
million in the mid 1980s, are given to healthy animals for agriculture
purposes, according to a 2000 report by the Union of Concerned
Scientists.
Livestock producers contend that the spread of resistant strains of
bacteria stems from the overuse of all medicines to treat infectious
diseases in both humans and animals. Removal of antibiotics, they say,
would only lead to increased disease in animals and reduction in food
safety.
Tainted manure can impact more than just the soil. Once applied to the
land, antibiotics can infiltrate water supplies as it seeps through the
soil into aquifers or spills into surface water due to runoff, explained
Dolliver.
"The other thing to remember is that the field is not a sterile
environment. Mice, rabbit and foxes traverse farmland while other
animals graze, all with the potential to become vectors for the
resistant bacteria organisms and spread it throughout different animal
populations," said Pat Millner, a U.S. Department of Agriculture
microbiologist based in Maryland.
The presence of antibiotics within the food chain is likely to increase
as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has permitted greater use of
controversial drugs on farm animals. For example, this past October, the
FDA dropped plans to halt use of cefquinome, a potent antibiotic, after
it said in July it would push against its use in animals.
Even if a product has the USDA organic label, it still can harbor traces
of antibiotics, Gupta said. While there are restrictions on use of raw
manure in U.S. organic farming because of concern over bacteria, no such
rules are in place regarding antibiotics or hormones. Not all organic
growers use manure with antibiotics, but many do, said Gupta.
High-temperature composting of manure, designed to kill pathogens, is
required for crops certified under the USDA label. That could eliminate
some antibiotics. But growers are not required to check for the drugs.
"We urgently need to find some way to put guidelines in place on organic
food regarding these chemicals," Gupta said.
Gupta said all growers should be told that composting can help.
Composting decays piles of food or manure as microbes decompose organic
matter using oxygen to survive, grow and reproduce. Heating up the
material creates conditions conducive for bacteria to break down
antibiotics and pathogens.
A pilot study by USDA scientists in Maryland added straw to a beef
cattle manure pile, heating up the dense material while allowing spaces
for air to penetrate. The higher temperatures sped up the decaying
process of harmful substances.
"The process happens very rapidly, in this study it took about 10 days,"
said Millner. "This is not too surprising since antibiotics are not a
thermally stable chemical compound."
In another study, the same researchers who discovered the uptake of
antibiotics by plants tested four of these drugs to determine how
effective composting would be in reducing harmful chemicals in turkey
manure. After 25 days using a combination of natural heat generated by
microbial activity, three of the four antibiotics broke down under the
high energy conditions created, said Dolliver.
Composting reduced concentrations of some antibiotics by up to 99
percent. "These findings suggest manure management can be an important
strategy for reducing the overall impact for these compounds making
their way into the environment," said Dolliver.
Many questions still remain. Currently, projects are underway to grow
crops for a full season in antibiotic laced manure, to grow them in
fields rather than greenhouses and to analyze the concentrations and
locations of the antibiotics within the plants. Researchers also want to
determine which antibiotics are more likely to be picked up, which
plants are more prone to uptake, what composting methods are most
effective in reducing harmful material in manure and what antibiotics
may be resistant to composting.
There are serious societal implications regarding the discoveries
already made and the questions yet to be answered, Gupta concluded. "We
are a chemical society and humans are the main user of pharmaceutical
products," said Gupta. "We need a better understanding of what takes
place when chemicals are applied to sources of food and must be more
vigilant about regulating what we use to grow food and what we put in
our bodies."
This article originally ran at Environmental Health News, a news source
published by Environmental Health Sciences, a nonprofit media company.
-----
And why ees zee above importante?

http://www.biojobblog.com/2009/03/ar...methicillin-re
sistant-staphylococcus-aureus-a-growing-link-between-mrsa-infections-and-
pigs/
and
http://www.grist.org/article/a-superbugs-life/

Buena lectura.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
enigma wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in
:

"Billy" wrote in message

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the
American life style, that was based on being the only major
industrial country not in ruins after WWII. For a short time,
we had the stay at home mom, whose family could live well on
the husbands wages. That time is long gone, and real income for
most Americans has remained flat for the last 30 years, while
the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.

Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that
China now owns nearly all American debt. The next few years
could be interesting.
Yeah, but if they turn our money into trash, they turn their
$TRILLION investment into trash. Not that we may not use hyper-inflation,
like the Germans after WWI, to reduce the debt to insignificance.

i know you're in OZ, but do you know if it's difficult for Americans
to emigrate to NZ (or OZ, as well)?
lee eyeing 709 hectacres in NZ)

Good luck Lee, but there is a reason why they call them
multinationals. The "paid for" politicians, and the nations are
expendable. You'll find them anywhere a buck is to be made.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

Billy wrote in

t.au:

Good luck Lee, but there is a reason why they call them
multinationals. The "paid for" politicians, and the nations are
expendable. You'll find them anywhere a buck is to be made.

oh, i know, but somehow 709 hectacres seems a bit more private than
my current 62 acres... and i bet i could really see the stars out
there, just different ones.
lee

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

t.au:

Good luck Lee, but there is a reason why they call them
multinationals. The "paid for" politicians, and the nations are
expendable. You'll find them anywhere a buck is to be made.

oh, i know, but somehow 709 hectacres seems a bit more private than
my current 62 acres... and i bet i could really see the stars out
there, just different ones.
lee

Outside and inside not one not two. Wherever we are some old chinese
guys might suggest working with what we have not trying force change
just not resisting it. Sort of like letting a field go dormant for a
year or two before I try to manipulate it. The stars are always out but
floating in a black lake in Rhode Island after a sauna 11.00 PM it is
easier to see. Some call that holiday .

Bill waxing as my kids have been about and my Dad will be here twice
today. Not too bad.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle."
-Philo of Alexandria

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

t.au:

Good luck Lee, but there is a reason why they call them
multinationals. The "paid for" politicians, and the nations are
expendable. You'll find them anywhere a buck is to be made.

oh, i know, but somehow 709 hectacres seems a bit more private than
my current 62 acres... and i bet i could really see the stars out
there, just different ones.
lee

Almost 3 sq. miles for 62 acres? Oh, to be young again. Hell, I'd settle
for another 20 years ;O) And you can do this in Oz or Kiwiland?
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"enigma" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in

Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that
China now owns nearly all American debt. The next few years
could be interesting.

i know you're in OZ, but do you know if it's difficult for Americans
to emigrate to NZ (or OZ, as well)?
lee eyeing 709 hectacres in NZ)

Dunno about NZ - Pete Heubner would probably know something about that given
that he migrated to NZ from Europe.

As for Oz, the only things I know are either anecdotal or what I read in
the paper. In some ways we're like the US in that we have 'guest workers'
from poorer countries but at the top end of the scale (either in terms of
unique skills or large fortunes) we will take people. I'm guessing you
might be in the middle of these two ends. Here's the place to start:
http://www.immi.gov.au/

Anecdotal info is from two friends who have moved here - one a Canadian of
40 with a teenaged son and the other is a British woman who is retired and I
guess could be described as being of "independent means".

The Canadian woman has enough money to put down a hefty deposit on a house
but will need to work till retirement. She is having some problems but it
looks like she'll be able to stay.

The British woman is here permanently as I think this might be because she
will never be living off the government - ie she won't be asking for an Old
Age Pension.

One thing that I know cold cause a problem for Oz immigration and probably
NZ as well would be Boo's Autism. All migrants are subject to health checks
and the possibility that children of the primary migrants may end up needing
health care some time in the future after the parents shuffle off their
mortal coil seems to be a problem.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

enigma wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in
:

"Billy" wrote in message

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the
American life style, that was based on being the only major
industrial country not in ruins after WWII. For a short time,
we had the stay at home mom, whose family could live well on
the husbands wages. That time is long gone, and real income for
most Americans has remained flat for the last 30 years, while
the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.

Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that
China now owns nearly all American debt. The next few years
could be interesting.

i know you're in OZ, but do you know if it's difficult for Americans
to emigrate to NZ (or OZ, as well)?
lee eyeing 709 hectacres in NZ)

Dunno about EnZed. In Oz you are in if you bring either lots of $$$ or a
vocational skill in demand. You are out if you are in poor health (we have
approximately universal health care) or otherwise likely to be a drag on the
public purse. Unless you are a refugee: do you come from a war zone or are
you about to be garroted by a masked squad in the night?

As for 700 hectares it's available in many places. You can get it for a
reasonable price if you don't mind that it is mostly bush or the rainfall is
rather low or a long way from anywhere, or all of the above. If you want
good soil and water you will pay big bickies. If you want good soil and
water near civilisation you will pay very big bickies.

David

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Unless you are a refugee: do you come from a war zone or are
you about to be garroted by a masked squad in the night?

Not so much recently. We have a young smiley face on fascism now, and a
new PR team, but things could change.

Used to be Oz was deferential to teachers on immigration. Is that still
true?

Lee, you must have seen
http://www.realestate.co.nz/rural/se...=2000000&min_p
rice=0&max_price=99000000
Hmmmmm, hmmm, hmm :o))
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

Billy wrote in

t.au:

Lee, you must have seen
http://www.realestate.co.nz/rural/se...rea_sq_m=20000
00&min_p rice=0&max_price=99000000
Hmmmmm, hmmm, hmm :o))

no, i hadn't! thanks! :)
lee

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Billy" wrote in message

The problem seems to be that the entire world aspires to the American
life style, that was based on being the only major industrial country
not in ruins after WWII. For a short time, we had the stay at home mom,
whose family could live well on the husbands wages. That time is long
gone, and real income for most Americans has remained flat for the last
30 years, while the upper 20% of earners have seen their incomes soar.

Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that China now
owns nearly all American debt. The next few years could be interesting.

You don't need to wonder, we will still lead. ~25-28% is hardly all.
Beside what are they going to do, repossess us? Its not like we sold out
our mining companies to em.

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ss,
"gunner" wrote:


Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that China now
owns nearly all American debt. The next few years could be interesting.

You don't need to wonder, we will still lead. ~25-28% is hardly all.
Beside what are they going to do, repossess us? Its not like we sold out
our mining companies to em.

You see gunner, this is what worries me. You don't have a freakin' idea
as to what is going on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/bu...ss/28mine.html
Australia Blocks China¹s Purchase of Mining Company

And most of our $4TRILLION debt was racked up under President Monkey
Smirk, in order to give us guns and butter, in the short term, while he
pushed his "vanity wars".
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Unless you are a refugee: do you come from a war zone or are
you about to be garroted by a masked squad in the night?

Not so much recently. We have a young smiley face on fascism now, and
a new PR team, but things could change.

Used to be Oz was deferential to teachers on immigration. Is that
still true?


These things go in cycles, sometimes it's teachers, sometimes, doctors, it
could be plumbers this month, whatever the Powers forgot to train 5 years
ago.

David

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ss,
"gunner" wrote:


Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that China now
owns nearly all American debt. The next few years could be
interesting.

You don't need to wonder, we will still lead. ~25-28% is hardly all.
Beside what are they going to do, repossess us? Its not like we sold out
our mining companies to em.

You see gunner, this is what worries me. You don't have a freakin' idea
as to what is going on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/bu...ss/28mine.html
Australia Blocks China¹s Purchase of Mining Company

And most of our $4TRILLION debt was racked up under President Monkey
Smirk, in order to give us guns and butter, in the short term, while he
pushed his "vanity wars".


Still asleep at the wheel Billy? as in most of your posts, you invariably
fail to read through your "cites" as well as skip over a lot of facts.
Finish readin the entire news article you posted before you stupidly pop
off again.

Where you went to school is ~25 % considered all ?

President Monkey Smirk? As always what has that diversionary BS have to do
with your misunderstanding of facts.

$4 trillion? you are sooo underestimating, try closer to $11 T. there slick

You have the right to to use facts, Billy, you do not have the right to
make them up! her are some crib notes for ya, but remember to verify them
they are Jan 2009, at least their not in your old time zone of 1909.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

People's Republic of China 739.6 24.07%
Japan 634.8 20.66%
Oil exporters 186.3 6.06%
Caribbean banking centers 176.6 5.75%
Brazil 133.5 4.35%
United Kingdom 124.2 4.04%
Russia 119.6 3.89%
Luxembourg 87.2 2.84%

Need to grow your own manure?
 

In article ,
"gunner" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ss,
"gunner" wrote:


Wonder how the US will survive the current crisis given that China now
owns nearly all American debt. The next few years could be
interesting.

You don't need to wonder, we will still lead. ~25-28% is hardly all.
Beside what are they going to do, repossess us? Its not like we sold out
our mining companies to em.

You see gunner, this is what worries me. You don't have a freakin' idea
as to what is going on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/bu...ss/28mine.html
Australia Blocks China¹s Purchase of Mining Company
So you agree that Australia isn't selling it's mining interests to the
Chinese. Glad you came to your senses. Not that it is the Chinese's
fault that everybody and his mother's brother has picked China to be the
manufacturer to the world. If we want them to make stuff cheaply that we
can buy at Wally World (Walmart), then they need raw materials. That
should be obvious even to a blundering blockhead like you.

And most of our $4TRILLION debt was racked up under President Monkey
Smirk, in order to give us guns and butter, in the short term, while he
pushed his "vanity wars".


Still asleep at the wheel Billy? as in most of your posts, you invariably
fail to read through your "cites" as well as skip over a lot of facts.
Finish readin the entire news article you posted before you stupidly pop
off again.
I'm sorry, were these the ones on pesticides?

Where you went to school is ~25 % considered all ?
Now you are referring to FarmI's fair characterization of US debt.

President Monkey Smirk? As always what has that diversionary BS have to do
with your misunderstanding of facts.
Pictures are worth a thousand words. See Monkey Smirk.
http://tinypic.com/1r509n5u

$4 trillion? you are sooo underestimating, try closer to $11 T. there slick
Gunneria, don't call me slick. You're right. I shouldn't have used the
numbers that YOU provided.

You have the right to to use facts, Billy, you do not have the right to
make them up! her are some crib notes for ya, but remember to verify them
they are Jan 2009, at least their not in your old time zone of 1909.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

People's Republic of China 739.6 24.07%
Japan 634.8 20.66%
Oil exporters 186.3 6.06%
Caribbean banking centers 176.6 5.75%
Brazil 133.5 4.35%
United Kingdom 124.2 4.04%
Russia 119.6 3.89%
Luxembourg 87.2 2.84%
It's interesting to note how under the former party of fiscal
responsibility (GOP) US debt has skyrocketed since Raygun, with only a
brief correction during the Clinton years, and then it was back to
"borrow and spend" as usual, transferring the wealth to the rich.

Wonder what we could do with the savings from canceling the
privatization of government functions (which in private hands need a
profit) and only spending a quarter of the world investment in weapons,
instead of the 50% that we do now.

Otherwise:

US Military Budget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._United_States

US Public Debt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Wealth in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_..._United_States

US Household income
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

Ex-Asst. Treasury Sec. Paul Craig Roberts on Wall St. Bailout: "Has
Deregulation Sired Fascism?"
http://www.democracynow.org/

The New Kleptocracy
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle21041.htm

You do bring a lot of manure to the group, Gunneria, but it isn't
in a useful form.

I think you would be happier over in tx.guns.

In any event, this is a gardening group, so **** off.
We're done here.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://green-house.tv/video/the-spring-garden-tour
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Need to grow your own manure?
 

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gunner" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ss,
"gunner" wrote:


Billy, ya gotta practice that innocent victim part a bit more. It doesn't
appear very plausible, especially for a politician such as yourself. I do
have to ask, what is up with you always trying covering your tracks after
your many faux pas with these extraneous BS links, do you honestly think
that it works well for ya? It is pretty obvious you just google search and
it really doesn't make you appear any smarter. But hey look at the good
side, you were only off by $7 trillion.