Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old 19-03-2010, 08:46 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

I've been growing Early Girl for almost a decade, maybe more. At my
local nursery (Orchard Supply in Berkeley) at the moment the only 6
packs they have are Ace. I once grew Ace but it was way before I got the
hang of growing tomatoes. I'm very good at it now.

Is Ace going to be satisfactory? It's not so very warm here most of the
summer, not optimal tomato growing weather, and that's why I've stuck
with Early Girl. However, they have Ace in the nurseries, so I figure it
must not be a bad one for here. I just called Berkeley Horticultural
Society, and they said they won't sell 6 packs. That rules me out. I'm
not going to pay $10 and up for my tomatoes when I can get a 6 pack at
OSH for $229. In a week they are as big as the 3" potted plants.

The guy at Berkeley Hort said he prefers the Early Girl because "they
taste better."

What do you think?

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net

  #2   Report Post  
Old 19-03-2010, 08:49 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

BTW, Orchard Supply said they would probably get a shipment on Tuesday,
so I may just wait the 4 days and see if I can get Early Girl again.
Next year I really should pin them down on the phone before making
several trips. They said they'd get a shipment today, I called and they
said they did, I went, they didn't have it! Bleh! I'm going to be a more
fussy shopper!

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
  #3   Report Post  
Old 19-03-2010, 10:13 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

In article ,
Dan Musicant wrote:

BTW, Orchard Supply said they would probably get a shipment on Tuesday,
so I may just wait the 4 days and see if I can get Early Girl again.
Next year I really should pin them down on the phone before making
several trips. They said they'd get a shipment today, I called and they
said they did, I went, they didn't have it! Bleh! I'm going to be a more
fussy shopper!

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net


Well, both are F1 hybrids, and what I can find Ace requires 75-85 days
from transplant to produce fruit, and Early Girl takes 52-65 days.

According to the blurb in Wikipedia about Early Girl, it is a favorite
of Alice Waters of Chez Paniss, if that means anything to you.
Dry Farming Early Girl is recommended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Girl
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
  #4   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2010, 02:22 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:13:26 -0700, in rec.gardens.edible you wrote:

:In article ,
: Dan Musicant wrote:
:
: BTW, Orchard Supply said they would probably get a shipment on Tuesday,
: so I may just wait the 4 days and see if I can get Early Girl again.
: Next year I really should pin them down on the phone before making
: several trips. They said they'd get a shipment today, I called and they
: said they did, I went, they didn't have it! Bleh! I'm going to be a more
: fussy shopper!
:
: Dan
:
:
: Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
:Well, both are F1 hybrids, and what I can find Ace requires 75-85 days
:from transplant to produce fruit, and Early Girl takes 52-65 days.
:
:According to the blurb in Wikipedia about Early Girl, it is a favorite
f Alice Waters of Chez Paniss, if that means anything to you.
ry Farming Early Girl is recommended.
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Girl

Ah, thanks. Chez Pannise is one of my favorite restaurants although I
haven't stepped into it for upwards of 15 years. I'm about 3 miles from
it. Well, Alice Waters said that she had a gastronomical epiphany (that
might overstate it) when she ate a dry farmed Early Girl tomato. A guy I
know admonished me to do something like dry farming my tomatoes telling
me they would taste better. I haven't particularly followed his advice,
although I've tried to cut back on the water and certainly have done so
especially when it's not too warm.

I guess I could try not watering them after planting. There's certainly
a lot of water in the ground right now!!!

I think I'll hold out for Early Girl even if I have to buy individual 3"
pots, the *******s! I'll see what they have Tuesday afternoon and make
my decision. Ace just seems way to slow in this environment. In June
it's often overcast here.

Dan



Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
  #5   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2010, 03:00 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:13:26 -0700, Billy
wrote:

ry Farming Early Girl is recommended.
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Girl

The thing about dry farming them is this:

My soil is pretty heavily clay. I dig a trench that's about 2 feet deep,
around 30 inches wide and around 10 feet long. I stop digging when I
encounter standing water. Once I get that deep it's not only hard to get
more mud out, it just doesn't seem to make sense because I'm seeing a
pool of water. I don't know if it's at all feasible to get down to 3
feet depth. Never tried beyond about 2 feet.

So, although I hear that tomatoes are deep rooted and can send roots
down up to 6 feet, I figure mine aren't going to be able to get down
below 2 feet. They could maybe get into the clay soil, but there
wouldn't be much point, because my compost rich soil stops at about 2
feet. Thus, I figure their wouldn't be much point in their sending roots
down further just for water that wouldn't be wresting nutrients out of
sourrounding soil. If I don't water, the compost won't continue to
deteriorate and give up nutrients. My compost looks better this year,
but there's still a lot of potential nutrients that won't be available
to the roots unless there's a certain level of moisture in the soil.
This is why I water some, usually once a week, what I figure will get
all the soil wet down to the 2 foot level. That's been my thinking, far
from scientific.

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net


  #6   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2010, 05:29 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

In article ,
Dan Musicant wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:13:26 -0700, Billy
wrote:

ry Farming Early Girl is recommended.
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Girl

The thing about dry farming them is this:

My soil is pretty heavily clay. I dig a trench that's about 2 feet deep,
around 30 inches wide and around 10 feet long. I stop digging when I
encounter standing water. Once I get that deep it's not only hard to get
more mud out, it just doesn't seem to make sense because I'm seeing a
pool of water. I don't know if it's at all feasible to get down to 3
feet depth. Never tried beyond about 2 feet.

So, although I hear that tomatoes are deep rooted and can send roots
down up to 6 feet, I figure mine aren't going to be able to get down
below 2 feet. They could maybe get into the clay soil, but there
wouldn't be much point, because my compost rich soil stops at about 2
feet. Thus, I figure their wouldn't be much point in their sending roots
down further just for water that wouldn't be wresting nutrients out of
sourrounding soil. If I don't water, the compost won't continue to
deteriorate and give up nutrients. My compost looks better this year,
but there's still a lot of potential nutrients that won't be available
to the roots unless there's a certain level of moisture in the soil.
This is why I water some, usually once a week, what I figure will get
all the soil wet down to the 2 foot level. That's been my thinking, far
from scientific.

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net


Dan, just a suggestion, but I would add 10 cu.ft. of sand to your bed,
plus whatever amendments, like 1 lb. rock phosphate, 5 lb of chicken
manure, 5 - 10% compost (2 - 5 cu.ft.). Mix it in well, and then Never
dig that bed again. In the future, add amendments to the surface
(manure, rock phosphate, wood ash) and keep the bed covered with mulch
(I prefer alfalfa because it gives me a twofer, mulch and nitrogen).

How common manures measure up
Manure Chicken Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N 1.1 3 5
P .80 .1 1
K .50 2 1

For more see Http://www.plantea.com/manuer.htm

If you get out to the coast, take a garbage bag and grab some seaweed
too. Now is a good time to do tat because once the storms are over, the
beaches get cleaned for tourist season, and there won't be any seaweed
until next fall.

Keep the beds covered in mulch, except for when you want to warm the
soil around the plants. If there isn't a plant, keep the bed covered.
The reason for this is soil structure, which gets destroyed every time
it gets dug up. The insects and the microbes will do your tilling for
you as long as you keep them fed, and the bed will develope mycorrhiza
which will work symbiotically with your plants to feed them.

If you have weed problems, pull them or put newspaper over them and
cover with mulch.

When your plants are young, check the soil with your finger to see if
the top inch is dry, before you water. It sounds like once your tomatoes
are established, they will be able to find their own water (no salt
water intrusion I hope).

Once the tomatoes start flowering, hold off on any future nitrogen
additions as given food and water, the vines will prefer to vegetate
than set fruit, which will reduce your crop.

Once the vines are up off the ground, you may want to try some clear
plastic ground cover around them to warm the soil. I find it interferes
with watering, so I'm only going to cover half the soil around my
tomatoes. In your case, you may not need to water at all.

Good luck and have a happy equinox. Kinda looks like barbecue weather.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
  #7   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2010, 02:57 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 10:29:43 -0700, Billy
wrote:

:In article ,
: Dan Musicant wrote:
:
: On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:13:26 -0700, Billy
: wrote:
:
: ry Farming Early Girl is recommended.
: :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Girl
:
: The thing about dry farming them is this:
:
: My soil is pretty heavily clay. I dig a trench that's about 2 feet deep,
: around 30 inches wide and around 10 feet long. I stop digging when I
: encounter standing water. Once I get that deep it's not only hard to get
: more mud out, it just doesn't seem to make sense because I'm seeing a
: pool of water. I don't know if it's at all feasible to get down to 3
: feet depth. Never tried beyond about 2 feet.
:
: So, although I hear that tomatoes are deep rooted and can send roots
: down up to 6 feet, I figure mine aren't going to be able to get down
: below 2 feet. They could maybe get into the clay soil, but there
: wouldn't be much point, because my compost rich soil stops at about 2
: feet. Thus, I figure their wouldn't be much point in their sending roots
: down further just for water that wouldn't be wresting nutrients out of
: sourrounding soil. If I don't water, the compost won't continue to
: deteriorate and give up nutrients. My compost looks better this year,
: but there's still a lot of potential nutrients that won't be available
: to the roots unless there's a certain level of moisture in the soil.
: This is why I water some, usually once a week, what I figure will get
: all the soil wet down to the 2 foot level. That's been my thinking, far
: from scientific.
:
: Dan
:
:
: Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
an, just a suggestion, but I would add 10 cu.ft. of sand to your bed,
lus whatever amendments, like 1 lb. rock phosphate, 5 lb of chicken
:manure, 5 - 10% compost (2 - 5 cu.ft.). Mix it in well, and then Never
:dig that bed again. In the future, add amendments to the surface
manure, rock phosphate, wood ash) and keep the bed covered with mulch
I prefer alfalfa because it gives me a twofer, mulch and nitrogen).
:
:How common manures measure up
:Manure Chicken Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
:N 1.1 3 5
:P .80 .1 1
:K .50 2 1
:
:For more see Http://www.plantea.com/manuer.htm
:
:If you get out to the coast, take a garbage bag and grab some seaweed
:too. Now is a good time to do tat because once the storms are over, the
:beaches get cleaned for tourist season, and there won't be any seaweed
:until next fall.
:
:Keep the beds covered in mulch, except for when you want to warm the
:soil around the plants. If there isn't a plant, keep the bed covered.
:The reason for this is soil structure, which gets destroyed every time
:it gets dug up. The insects and the microbes will do your tilling for
:you as long as you keep them fed, and the bed will develope mycorrhiza
:which will work symbiotically with your plants to feed them.
:
:If you have weed problems, pull them or put newspaper over them and
:cover with mulch.
:
:When your plants are young, check the soil with your finger to see if
:the top inch is dry, before you water. It sounds like once your tomatoes
:are established, they will be able to find their own water (no salt
:water intrusion I hope).
:
:Once the tomatoes start flowering, hold off on any future nitrogen
:additions as given food and water, the vines will prefer to vegetate
:than set fruit, which will reduce your crop.
:
:Once the vines are up off the ground, you may want to try some clear
lastic ground cover around them to warm the soil. I find it interferes
:with watering, so I'm only going to cover half the soil around my
:tomatoes. In your case, you may not need to water at all.
:
:Good luck and have a happy equinox. Kinda looks like barbecue weather.

Thanks for these ideas! I'll try to work with them in the future.
There's one other factor that will have to be worked out to implement
your suggestions:

There's a rather large ( ! ) plum tree (yellow plums) that's just north
of the tomato plot. The long rectangular tomato bed points almost
directly at the trunk of that tree, and the tree limbs overhand about
25% of the tomato bed. I've been here around 25 years and the tree has
grown and the last ~5 years, the tomatoes closest to the tree were doing
very poorly. The last 2-3 years I've experimented with putting barriers
in the soil to keep out the plum tree's roots from the tomato plot, and
pretty successfully last year. Last year I put compressed wood ~1/4"
boards down, about 2 feet deep. I treated one side with wood
preservative. The trench is open right now, so I could replace them, and
maybe I should, but my intention at the moment is to just leave them in
there and see how the crop does this year. At the worst, the last 1-2 of
the 6 plants will suffer, but I'll still get an OK crop.

If I adopt a strategy of not digging a trench yearly, I'll either have
to execute my plan of removing the tree (a big job!), or put down a
barrier that wouldn't require almost yearly replacement.

Dan



Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
  #8   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2010, 03:51 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

Actually, the compressed wood I put in there to fend of the plum tree's
roots was 1/8". I might replace at least some of it. I have a piece
left.

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
  #9   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2010, 04:29 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

In article ,
Dan Musicant wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 10:29:43 -0700, Billy
wrote:

:In article ,
: Dan Musicant wrote:
:
: On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:13:26 -0700, Billy
: wrote:
:
: ry Farming Early Girl is recommended.
: :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Girl
:
: The thing about dry farming them is this:
:
: My soil is pretty heavily clay. I dig a trench that's about 2 feet deep,
: around 30 inches wide and around 10 feet long. I stop digging when I
: encounter standing water. Once I get that deep it's not only hard to get
: more mud out, it just doesn't seem to make sense because I'm seeing a
: pool of water. I don't know if it's at all feasible to get down to 3
: feet depth. Never tried beyond about 2 feet.
:
: So, although I hear that tomatoes are deep rooted and can send roots
: down up to 6 feet, I figure mine aren't going to be able to get down
: below 2 feet. They could maybe get into the clay soil, but there
: wouldn't be much point, because my compost rich soil stops at about 2
: feet. Thus, I figure their wouldn't be much point in their sending roots
: down further just for water that wouldn't be wresting nutrients out of
: sourrounding soil. If I don't water, the compost won't continue to
: deteriorate and give up nutrients. My compost looks better this year,
: but there's still a lot of potential nutrients that won't be available
: to the roots unless there's a certain level of moisture in the soil.
: This is why I water some, usually once a week, what I figure will get
: all the soil wet down to the 2 foot level. That's been my thinking, far
: from scientific.
:
: Dan
:
:
: Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
an, just a suggestion, but I would add 10 cu.ft. of sand to your bed,
lus whatever amendments, like 1 lb. rock phosphate, 5 lb of chicken
:manure, 5 - 10% compost (2 - 5 cu.ft.). Mix it in well, and then Never
:dig that bed again. In the future, add amendments to the surface
manure, rock phosphate, wood ash) and keep the bed covered with mulch
I prefer alfalfa because it gives me a twofer, mulch and nitrogen).
:
:How common manures measure up
:Manure Chicken Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
:N 1.1 3 5
:P .80 .1 1
:K .50 2 1
:
:For more see Http://www.plantea.com/manuer.htm
:
:If you get out to the coast, take a garbage bag and grab some seaweed
:too. Now is a good time to do tat because once the storms are over, the
:beaches get cleaned for tourist season, and there won't be any seaweed
:until next fall.
:
:Keep the beds covered in mulch, except for when you want to warm the
:soil around the plants. If there isn't a plant, keep the bed covered.
:The reason for this is soil structure, which gets destroyed every time
:it gets dug up. The insects and the microbes will do your tilling for
:you as long as you keep them fed, and the bed will develope mycorrhiza
:which will work symbiotically with your plants to feed them.
:
:If you have weed problems, pull them or put newspaper over them and
:cover with mulch.
:
:When your plants are young, check the soil with your finger to see if
:the top inch is dry, before you water. It sounds like once your tomatoes
:are established, they will be able to find their own water (no salt
:water intrusion I hope).
:
:Once the tomatoes start flowering, hold off on any future nitrogen
:additions as given food and water, the vines will prefer to vegetate
:than set fruit, which will reduce your crop.
:
:Once the vines are up off the ground, you may want to try some clear
lastic ground cover around them to warm the soil. I find it interferes
:with watering, so I'm only going to cover half the soil around my
:tomatoes. In your case, you may not need to water at all.
:
:Good luck and have a happy equinox. Kinda looks like barbecue weather.

Thanks for these ideas! I'll try to work with them in the future.
There's one other factor that will have to be worked out to implement
your suggestions:

There's a rather large ( ! ) plum tree (yellow plums) that's just north
of the tomato plot. The long rectangular tomato bed points almost
directly at the trunk of that tree, and the tree limbs overhand about
25% of the tomato bed. I've been here around 25 years and the tree has
grown and the last ~5 years, the tomatoes closest to the tree were doing
very poorly. The last 2-3 years I've experimented with putting barriers
in the soil to keep out the plum tree's roots from the tomato plot, and
pretty successfully last year. Last year I put compressed wood ~1/4"
boards down, about 2 feet deep. I treated one side with wood
preservative. The trench is open right now, so I could replace them, and
maybe I should, but my intention at the moment is to just leave them in
there and see how the crop does this year. At the worst, the last 1-2 of
the 6 plants will suffer, but I'll still get an OK crop.

If I adopt a strategy of not digging a trench yearly, I'll either have
to execute my plan of removing the tree (a big job!), or put down a
barrier that wouldn't require almost yearly replacement.

Dan



Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net


Personally, I don't see a problem with the tree's roots. Maybe someone
can enlighten me. I think the problem would come from the tree casting a
shadow on the tomatoes. Fortunately, the tree is on the north side of
the tomatoes, so just trim it to let more light reach the tomatoes.

Alternatively, take a square nosed shovel and plunge it into the ground
along a line that separates the tree from the tomato beds. You don't
need to dig. You are just trying to sever any roots leading to the
tomatoes.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
  #10   Report Post  
Old 22-03-2010, 11:23 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:29:47 -0700, Billy
wrote:

:Personally, I don't see a problem with the tree's roots. Maybe someone
:can enlighten me. I think the problem would come from the tree casting a
:shadow on the tomatoes. Fortunately, the tree is on the north side of
:the tomatoes, so just trim it to let more light reach the tomatoes.
:
:Alternatively, take a square nosed shovel and plunge it into the ground
:along a line that separates the tree from the tomato beds. You don't
:need to dig. You are just trying to sever any roots leading to the
:tomatoes.

I think the roots are a big part of the problem, not just the shade. I'm
basing this on my experience and also the admonitions and advice in my
favorite book on tomato culture, "Tomatoes, the Multiplant Method" by
Leo Klein. This book's methods enabled me to move from a bumbling
experimenter to an accomplished grower. It's probably hard to find now.
I found it at my local library, and made a copy many years ago. Klein
advised treated barriers against tree root invasion such as I'm using,
and doing this the last couple of years (especially last year) has made
the northern most plant quite productive, while in the preceding 3 years
or so, it has produced, be very meagerly compared to the southerly
plants. Shade is an issue, certainly, but not so much in afternoon sun.
I've trimmed he overhanging limbs some, but I'm convinced that invasive
roots are the major problem.

Cutting those roots will help, but a barrier is the best strategy short
of removing the tree. I should maybe do that anyway, because that tree
is overhanging the property boundaries pretty considerably at this
point.

Dan


Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net


  #11   Report Post  
Old 23-03-2010, 11:21 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2008
Posts: 509
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

Billy said:


Personally, I don't see a problem with the tree's roots. Maybe someone
can enlighten me.


Tree roots are why I've had to give up on the idea of not at least
minimally tilling. My vegetable garden is a fertile oasis in a vaste
sea of sand. So at least once a year each bed gets worked as
gently as possible with a broad-fork and the fresh roots get ripped
out.

Alternatively, take a square nosed shovel and plunge it into the ground
along a line that separates the tree from the tomato beds. You don't
need to dig. You are just trying to sever any roots leading to the
tomatoes.


Would likely have been sufficient at the last place, where the subsoil was
heavy clay rather than sand. (The water table therewas high enough that
we had crayfish burrows at the back of the yard even with no body of
water in sight!)

One shovel blade length is hardly sufficient, in my current garden. The
network of roots goes surprisingly deep here. It's a fossil sand dune,
and the sand goes down for10 feet at least, probably much more.
I wish I could do something about the trees, but my lot is long and
narrow and the trees are in the neighbors' yards.

It's impressive, the lengths tree roots will go to get what the tree needs.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Vegetables are like bombs packed tight with all kinds of important
nutrients..." --Largo Potter, Valkyria Chronicles

email valid but not regularly monitored


  #12   Report Post  
Old 23-03-2010, 01:00 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2009
Posts: 1,085
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

In article
,
Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Billy said:


Personally, I don't see a problem with the tree's roots. Maybe someone
can enlighten me.


Tree roots are why I've had to give up on the idea of not at least
minimally tilling. My vegetable garden is a fertile oasis in a vaste
sea of sand. So at least once a year each bed gets worked as
gently as possible with a broad-fork and the fresh roots get ripped
out.

Alternatively, take a square nosed shovel and plunge it into the ground
along a line that separates the tree from the tomato beds. You don't
need to dig. You are just trying to sever any roots leading to the
tomatoes.


Would likely have been sufficient at the last place, where the subsoil was
heavy clay rather than sand. (The water table therewas high enough that
we had crayfish burrows at the back of the yard even with no body of
water in sight!)

One shovel blade length is hardly sufficient, in my current garden. The
network of roots goes surprisingly deep here. It's a fossil sand dune,
and the sand goes down for10 feet at least, probably much more.
I wish I could do something about the trees, but my lot is long and
narrow and the trees are in the neighbors' yards.

It's impressive, the lengths tree roots will go to get what the tree needs.


Got me looking about. We used to say a trees root system is like the
trees canopy sort of like a mirror image. Still maples were wider it
seemed and our oaks had tap roots. Just folksy musings.

This looked interesting as it suggests size in time.

http://www.vnla.org/Info%20Files/tree_canopy_spread.htm

--
Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/03/benjamin-zander-on-music-and-passion/
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_feynman.html VERY NEAT
  #13   Report Post  
Old 23-03-2010, 01:43 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

In article
,
Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Billy said:


Personally, I don't see a problem with the tree's roots. Maybe someone
can enlighten me.


Tree roots are why I've had to give up on the idea of not at least
minimally tilling. My vegetable garden is a fertile oasis in a vaste
sea of sand. So at least once a year each bed gets worked as
gently as possible with a broad-fork and the fresh roots get ripped
out.

Alternatively, take a square nosed shovel and plunge it into the ground
along a line that separates the tree from the tomato beds. You don't
need to dig. You are just trying to sever any roots leading to the
tomatoes.


Would likely have been sufficient at the last place, where the subsoil was
heavy clay rather than sand. (The water table therewas high enough that
we had crayfish burrows at the back of the yard even with no body of
water in sight!)

What my friends in St. Lucia call gophers are actually land crabs LOL.

One shovel blade length is hardly sufficient, in my current garden. The
network of roots goes surprisingly deep here.

I'm not surprised with sandy soil, but Dan said he puts in a barrier to
keep roots out of his garden. I presumed that because of his high water
table (only 2 ft. down ) the roots would be mostly on the surface. I
would have thought the water would adversely affect the roots for most
trees, willows and mangroves excepted. Spreading across the surface
makes sense (gotta watch my premise), but diving into the water table?
That seems odd to me.
Sand seems like it should be different. Less retentive ability to hold
moisture and nutrients, would justify a tree sending out roots
everywhere looking for nourishment.
Besides the roots, what else do you do to your sandy soil to make it
suitable for gardening?
It's a fossil sand dune,
and the sand goes down for 10 feet at least, probably much more.

This I know nothing about. Is a fossil sand dune still just sand or does
it have other characteristics?
I wish I could do something about the trees, but my lot is long and
narrow and the trees are in the neighbors' yards.

It's impressive, the lengths tree roots will go to get what the tree needs.

That's why I told Dan to sever the roots. Like baloons, if you restrict
them in one place they will just pop up somewhere else.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
  #14   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2010, 10:15 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2008
Posts: 509
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

Billy said:

Pat Kiewicz wrote:


Sand seems like it should be different. Less retentive ability to hold
moisture and nutrients, would justify a tree sending out roots
everywhere looking for nourishment.
Besides the roots, what else do you do to your sandy soil to make it
suitable for gardening?


LOTS of compost and mulch, prior heavy applications of ground limestone
and other mineral soil amendments. It's made a huge difference.
It does take a bit of water to keep things going around here, though.

It's a fossil sand dune,
and the sand goes down for 10 feet at least, probably much more.


This I know nothing about. Is a fossil sand dune still just sand or does
it have other characteristics?


It's a sand dune that used to be perched along the shore of a vastly
larger Lake Erie, shortly after the glaciers retreated. South of us the
land is lower and flatter, with much heavier soils (the old lake bed).
It's been several thousands of years since that sand was blowing.

You can still see active sand dunes along the coast of Lake Michigan,
and as you move inland from that lake there are successive bands of
older dunes (or what I have referred to as 'fossil' dunes).

This year I have to start a new strawberry bed, as the old one is
really in decline. Best be prepared for some major tree root removal
when I renovate it...

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Vegetables are like bombs packed tight with all kinds of important
nutrients..." --Largo Potter, Valkyria Chronicles

email valid but not regularly monitored


  #15   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2010, 03:12 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default Tomatoes - Ace versus Early Girl versus ?

In article
,
Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Billy said:

Pat Kiewicz wrote:


Sand seems like it should be different. Less retentive ability to hold
moisture and nutrients, would justify a tree sending out roots
everywhere looking for nourishment.
Besides the roots, what else do you do to your sandy soil to make it
suitable for gardening?


LOTS of compost and mulch, prior heavy applications of ground limestone
and other mineral soil amendments. It's made a huge difference.
It does take a bit of water to keep things going around here, though.


I have the opposite problem, heavy clay. Organic mater and sand have
improved my situation greatly. Now I rely on rye and earthworms to
complete the soil transformation. I'm trying to switch out the rye for
buckwheat (both put amazing amounts of roots into the soil) because
buckwheat is high in rutin, which would make it healthy for the soil,
and healthy for me.

Have you added any clay to your garden? It would help with water and
nutrient retention.

With all that sand, are there earthworms in your garden? Any idea of the
biotic community in the garden soil?


It's a fossil sand dune,
and the sand goes down for 10 feet at least, probably much more.


This I know nothing about. Is a fossil sand dune still just sand or does
it have other characteristics?


It's a sand dune that used to be perched along the shore of a vastly
larger Lake Erie, shortly after the glaciers retreated. South of us the
land is lower and flatter, with much heavier soils (the old lake bed).
It's been several thousands of years since that sand was blowing.


And several thousand years in the making before that.


You can still see active sand dunes along the coast of Lake Michigan,
and as you move inland from that lake there are successive bands of
older dunes (or what I have referred to as 'fossil' dunes).


I wouldn't have thought of lakes as having sand dunes. California lakes
must just be too small to have this feature.

This year I have to start a new strawberry bed, as the old one is
really in decline. Best be prepared for some major tree root removal
when I renovate it...


Sounds like a challenge, given the breadth and depth of your root
problems.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ace Hardware ad Srgnt Billko Lawns 4 27-05-2008 09:38 PM
Cymbidium Radiant ... Ace of Spades P Max Orchid Photos 0 01-03-2007 11:18 AM
ACE Hardware Fertilizers Robert11 Lawns 4 21-03-2006 02:09 AM
Ace Green Turf lawn seed [email protected] Gardening 1 13-05-2005 08:05 PM
Six-Pack's Tag said Early Girl, Fruit is Cherry Tomatoes........ Richard Shelter Edible Gardening 17 16-07-2003 02:22 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2021 GardenBanter.co.uk.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Gardening"

 

Copyright © 2017