In article ,
Steve Daniels wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:26:01 -0700, against all advice, something
compelled Billy , to say:

There are an increasing number of studies showing
enhanced levels of vitamins in organic produce.



Cite three.

Thank you.

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/the-...e-against-comm
ercially-grown-foods.html



http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/cm/symposium/organics/delate/

http://www.rawfoodlife.com/Articles_...commercial_foo
d/organic_vs_commercial_food.htm

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/107555301750164244

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/susagri/susagri018.htm

http://www.ota.com/organic/benefits/nutrition.html

http://www.organixentral.co.uk/rutgers.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
p.45 - 46
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

The reason Greene County is no longer green for half the year is
because
the farmer who can buy synthetic fertility no longer needs cover crops
to capture a whole year's worth of sunlight he has plugged himself
into
a new source of energy. When you add together the natural gas in the
fertilizer to the fossil fuels it takes to make the pesticides, drive
the tractors, and harvest, dry, and transport the corn, you find that
every bushel of industrial corn requires the equivalent of between a
quarter and a third of a gallon of oil to grow it gallons of oil
per acre of corn. (Some estimates are much higher.) Put another way,
it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy to
produce a calorie of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer
the
Naylor farm produced more than two calories of food energy for every
calorie of energy invested.
...

ok, i see where the 1 calorie amount comes
from, but i see hand waving for the 2 calorie
amount. is that detailed some other place?


songbird

I don't want to seem patronizing, so I'll just give you his bibliography.

CHAPTER 1: THE PLANT: CORN'S CONQUEST
In addition to the printed sources below, I learned a great deal about
the natural and social history of Zea mays from my conversations with
Ricardo Salvador at Iowa State
(www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/home.html) and
Ignacio Chapela at the University of California at Berkeley. Ignacio
introduced me to his colleague Todd Dawson, who not only helped me
understand what a C-4 plant is, but generously tested various foods and
hair samples for corn content using his department's mass spectrometer.

The two indispensable books on the history of corn a

Fussell, Betty The Story of Corn (New York: Knopf, 1994). Columbus's
quote on corn is on page 17. The statistics on wheat versus corn
consumption are on page 215.

Warman, Arturo. Corn & Capitalism: How a Botanical ******* Grew to
Global Dominance.
Trans. Nancy L. Westrate (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina
Press, 2003).
Other helpful works touching on the history of corn include:

Anderson, Edgar. Plants, Man and Life (Berkeley: University of
California Press, 1952).

Crosby, Alfred W Germs, Seeds & Animals: Studies in Ecological History
(Armonk, NY: . M. E. Sharpe, 1994).

‹‹‹‹. Ecological Imperialism: The Biological Expansion of Europe,
900-1900 (Cam-
bridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 1986).

Diamond, Jared. Guns, Germs, and Steel (New York: W W Norton, 1997).

Eisenberg, Evan. The Ecology of Eden (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1998).
Very good on the coevolutionary relationship of grasses and humankind.

Iltis, Hugh H. "FromTeosinte to Maize: The Catastrophic Sexual
Mutation," Science 222, no. 4626 (November 25, 1983).

Mann, Charles C. 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
(New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2005). Excellent on the evolutionary origins
of the plant and pre-Columbian maize agriculture.

Nabhan, G. P. Enduring Seeds: Native American Agriculture and Wild Plant
Conservation (San Francisco: North Point Press, 1989).

Rifkin, Jeremy. Beyond Beef: The Rise and Fall of the Cattle Culture
(New York: Plume, 19 93). The quote from General Sheridan is on page 78.

Sargent, Frederick. Corn Plants: Their Uses and Ways of Life (Boston:
Houghton Mifnin,1901). '

Wallace, H. A., and E. N. Bressman. Corn and Corn Growing (New York:
JohnWiley &Sons, 1949).

Weatherford, Jack. Indian Givers: How the Indians of the Americas
Transformed the World (New York: Crown, 1988).

Will, George F., and George E. Hyde. Corn Among the Indians of the Upper
Missouri (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1917).
-----

I await your report.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
Shooting the shit is fine, but without authority, it is just babbling,

today's authority is sometimes
wrong. i worked for 7 people
who were authorities and they
were a lost cause. and so i
don't trust authorities blindly
and find most popular works
too light on rigor...

Great, so to counter balance lack of rigor, you offer none? What do you
use to justify your beliefs on up and down, good and bad, right or wrong?

because of that i have been
trying to get a hold of more
studious works lately. i was
reading a college level plant
physiology textbook a few
weeks ago and it ignored
so many topics and instead focused
on the pet topics of the various
contributors.

You were reading an anthology by various authors writing about subjects
that they supposedly would know the most?


don't get me wrong, it was a
good book for me to read but
it was very incomplete and i was
afraid that many students who had
this as their only plant physiology
book would be missing so much.

You expected all of plant physiology in one book? Kinda makes you wonder
what the other 40 units were all about.

now i am looking for other
good reads, so recommend away
and i will line some of them up
and see what they have to offer.


and logic is only as good as its premise.

if it's valid.


You quoted links?
Citation please.

only those you included, but
many i did not follow because
i was offline (as i am now).

You argue, but give no supporting authority: divine revelation, inspired
intuition, bull shit? Who knows? You offer no argument for your
denigration of organic food.




tossing citations back and
forth with no personal interpretation
on your part isn't a conversation.

Since we haven't done the original work, it's my authorities against
your authorities.

tell me when you cite a
link what it means to you
and how it is lived by you.
otherwise you are a shadow
boxer.

lame
do you garden? how do
you garden? what do you
garden?
I thought we were talking about the irrelevance of organic food. Why are
you wandering off, or are you jut trying to change the subject?

or i am here to babble then.

Looks like it.


songbird
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
we have wandered far afield,
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?


This is called "Modeling Behavior".

on the catwalk...
shake it Billy.

Well, that lowered the level.


The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
p.45 - 46
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

The reason Greene County is no longer green for half the year is
because
the farmer who can buy synthetic fertility no longer needs cover crops
to capture a whole year's worth of sunlight he has plugged himself
into
a new source of energy. When you add together the natural gas in the
fertilizer to the fossil fuels it takes to make the pesticides, drive
the tractors, and harvest, dry, and transport the corn, you find that
every bushel of industrial corn requires the equivalent of between a
quarter and a third of a gallon of oil to grow it gallons of oil
per acre of corn. (Some estimates are much higher.) Put another way,
it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy to
produce a calorie of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer
the
Naylor farm produced more than two calories of food energy for every
calorie of energy invested.

you need to mark the citations quotes
differently from your own words.

i cannot tell if the following remark
is yours or the "authority" you are citing...

It's one paragraph, what do you think?


From the standpoint of industrial efficiency, it's too bad we can't
simply drink the petroleum directly.

not an EPA approved
use of that material! i am
shocked at you Billywonkanobi. ( )


and the other question for
Billy is how does organic
gardening sequester carbon
dioxide? improving soil is
good, mixing organic stuff in
and making all the various
critters happy is great, but
that is nutrient cycling not
carbon sequestration... we
need carbon sequestration
at this point. can we get
that via organic gardening
methods at present?

Only in terms of bio-mass, unless you include "terra preta", and its
charcoal.

*ding ding!*


Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
Ch.1, second paragraph.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden soils
(for
example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square
meters] of good soil), there is a whole world of soil organisms that
you
cannot see unless you use sophisticated and expensive optics. Only
then
do the tiny, microscopic organisms nematodes A mere teaspoon of
good garden soil, as measured by microbial geneticists, contains a
billion invisible bacteria, several yards of
equally invisible fungal hyphae, several thousand protozoa, and a few
dozen nematodes.

do you know that there are
places where earth worms are
not native and they are considered
alien invasive species?

have you studied any forest
floor ecologies?

Are you trying to say something? It's really not that hard.

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
p.78
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

Like most living things, leaves are made primarily of
carbon-containing
compounds: sugars, proteins, starches, and many other organic
molecules.
...


1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus : Charles C.
Mann
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelatio...mbus/dp/140003
2059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269536235&sr=1-1

...
Trees store vast amounts of carbon in their trunks,
branches, and leaves. When they die or people cut them down, the
carbon
is usually released into the atmosphere, driving global warming.
Experiments by Makoto Ogawa of the Kansai Environmental Engineering
Center, near Kyoto, Japan, demonstrated that charcoal retains its
carbon
in the soil for up to fifty thousand years.

ah yes, that's a helpful
idea and i suspect people
will be amending away.
since it is a lighter
material i may include
some in my tulip bed
topping soil mix.


i really need to study
charcoal production methods...
perhaps a solar oven could
do it... gotta go look now.

still gotta do it. *sigh*
i'm sensitive to smoke though
that it would have to be a
pretty well engineered device.

*mad scientist chuckle*


songbird
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

now i am looking for other
good reads, so recommend away
and i will line some of them up
and see what they have to offer.

"Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1

"How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

Creative Propagation [Illustrated] (Paperback)
by Peter Thompson (Author), Owen Josie (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Propa...dp/0881926817/
ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273249143&sr=1-1

Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition)
(Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158..._p14_i1?pf_rd_
m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=101
&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael Pollan

http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Food-E...114964/ref=sr_
1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238974366&sr=1-1

Stolen Harvest: The Hijacking of the Global Food Supply
by Vandana Shiva
http://www.amazon.com/Stolen-Harvest...y/dp/089608607
0/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238974474&sr=1-10

What to Eat
by Marion Nestle
http://www.amazon.com/What-Eat-Mario...ref=sr_1_1?ie=
UTF8&s=books&qid=1238974909&sr=1-1

Seeds of Deception: Exposing Industry and Government Lies About the
Safety of the Genetically Engineered Foods You're Eating (Paperback)
by Jeffrey M. Smith
http://www.amazon.com/Seeds-Deceptio...y-Engineered/d
p/0972966587/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247180992&sr=1-1
€ ISBN-10: 0972966587
€ ISBN-13: 978-0972966580

Food Politics: How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition, and Health,
Revised and Expanded Edition (California Studies in Food and Culture)
by Marion Nestle
http://www.amazon.com/Food-Politics-...lifornia/dp/05
20254031/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244222934&sr=1-2
€ ISBN-10: 0520254031
€ ISBN-13: 978-0520254039

American Pests: The Losing War on Insects from Colonial Times to DDT
by James E. McWilliams
http://www.amazon.com/American-Pests...l/dp/023113942
X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238975011&sr=1-1

General Viticulture
by A. J. Winkler, James A. Cook, W. M. Kliewer, Lloyd A. Lider
http://www.amazon.com/General-Viticu...025911/ref=sr_
1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238975081&sr=1-1

The Fatal Harvest Reader by Andrew Kimbrell
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_...stripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=fatal+harvest+reader&sprefix=Fatal+Ha

Seed to Seed: Seed Saving and Growing Techniques for Vegetable
Gardeners,
by Suzanne Ashworth and Kent Whealy
http://www.amazon.com/Seed-Growing-T...deners/dp/1882
424581/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238951517&sr=1-1


1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus : Charles C. Mann
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelatio...mbus/dp/140003
2059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269536235&sr=1-1

Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science
of Diet and Health
~ Gary Taubes
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-...ce/dp/14000334
62/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267036694&sr=1-1

The World Without Us (Paperback)
by Alan Weisman
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-...2427905/ref=sr
_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274206221&sr=1-1


Related

The Revolution will not be Microwaved
by Sandor Ellix Katz
http://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Wil...round/dp/19333
92118/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218128128&sr= 1-1
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
we have wandered far afield,
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?


This is called "Modeling Behavior".

on the catwalk...
shake it Billy.

Well, that lowered the level.

oh c'mon, lighten up a little Billy,
i laughed when you got out the
clover tiara and really enjoyed
the grass skirt shimmy.


The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
p.45 - 46
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

The reason Greene County is no longer green for half the year is
because
the farmer who can buy synthetic fertility no longer needs cover
crops to capture a whole year's worth of sunlight he has plugged
himself into
a new source of energy. When you add together the natural gas in the
fertilizer to the fossil fuels it takes to make the pesticides,
drive the tractors, and harvest, dry, and transport the corn, you
find that every bushel of industrial corn requires the equivalent
of between a quarter and a third of a gallon of oil to grow it
gallons of oil per acre of corn. (Some estimates are much higher.)
Put another way, it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy
to
produce a calorie of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer
the
Naylor farm produced more than two calories of food energy for every
calorie of energy invested.

you need to mark the citations quotes
differently from your own words.

i cannot tell if the following remark
is yours or the "authority" you are citing...

It's one paragraph, what do you think?

i said i could not tell... i think " is a good
symbol to use around texts from others...


....
Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
Ch.1, second paragraph.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden soils
(for
example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square
meters] of good soil), there is a whole world of soil organisms that
you
cannot see unless you use sophisticated and expensive optics. Only
then
do the tiny, microscopic organisms nematodes A mere teaspoon of
good garden soil, as measured by microbial geneticists, contains a
billion invisible bacteria, several yards of
equally invisible fungal hyphae, several thousand protozoa, and a
few dozen nematodes.

do you know that there are
places where earth worms are
not native and they are considered
alien invasive species?

have you studied any forest
floor ecologies?

Are you trying to say something? It's really not that hard.

the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.


songbird

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Shooting the shit is fine, but without authority, it is just
babbling,

today's authority is sometimes
wrong. i worked for 7 people
who were authorities and they
were a lost cause. and so i
don't trust authorities blindly
and find most popular works
too light on rigor...

Great, so to counter balance lack of rigor, you offer none? What do
you use to justify your beliefs on up and down, good and bad, right
or wrong?

any study of the history of
science is rigor enough for
the basic arguement i've made
here.


because of that i have been
trying to get a hold of more
studious works lately. i was
reading a college level plant
physiology textbook a few
weeks ago and it ignored
so many topics and instead focused
on the pet topics of the various
contributors.

You were reading an anthology by various authors writing about
subjects that they supposedly would know the most?

it was a textbook called _Plant Physiology_
so i expected a broad overview of
plant physiology, but they missed a lot
of stuff that should be in a basic PP book.

i'm glad it was detailed as it was in some
parts, but it completely ignored many basic
plant phenomena. so i need to find some
other text that gets those covered.

i've quoted it below so you know
which text i'm speaking of.


don't get me wrong, it was a
good book for me to read but
it was very incomplete and i was
afraid that many students who had
this as their only plant physiology
book would be missing so much.

You expected all of plant physiology in one book? Kinda makes you
wonder what the other 40 units were all about.

a college level text should have a
broad overview of all aspects of
plant physiology even if there is not
depth of coverage of some areas it
should at least be mentioned and the
basics outlined.

here i will give you a link and
see if you agree.

http://4e.plantphys.net/categories.php?t=t

i think the following is a more
balanced work:

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyT...HEP000221.html

but i haven't read it yet. i'm putting it
on my request list at the library today.

still that looks to be also set
up for talking about only certain
kinds of plants and my interests
are in other forms which don't
seem to be covered by either of
these books. i'm going to have
to keep looking...

ah, much better:

http://www.amazon.com/Physiology-Flo.../dp/0444874984

that's on my list now. i think i'll
bump this ahead of the last since i've
already been through most of that
already.


now i am looking for other
good reads, so recommend away
and i will line some of them up
and see what they have to offer.


and logic is only as good as its premise.

if it's valid.


You quoted links?
Citation please.

only those you included, but
many i did not follow because
i was offline (as i am now).

You argue, but give no supporting authority: divine revelation,
inspired intuition, bull shit? Who knows? You offer no argument for
your denigration of organic food.

denigration? no, no way,
healthy skepticism towards
the new priesthood yes.


tossing citations back and
forth with no personal interpretation
on your part isn't a conversation.

Since we haven't done the original work, it's my authorities against
your authorities.

hold it, original work would
mean what here? nutritional
studies which include liver
function tests? long term
liver cancer rates vs
life span increases? (which
is probably available but
not really accurate enough
because it's not pre-agrichem).


tell me when you cite a
link what it means to you
and how it is lived by you.
otherwise you are a shadow
boxer.

lame

no, i just want to see if you
live what you quote.


do you garden? how do
you garden? what do you
garden?

I thought we were talking about the irrelevance of organic food. Why
are you wandering off, or are you jut trying to change the subject?

irrelevance? i don't think i've
ever said that organic gardening is
irrelevant, what i have said is that
it's wise to keep some healthy
skepticism.


songbird

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives...rthworms/index.
html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.


Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

Ch.1, paragraph 2
"In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden (HELLO)
soils (for example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09
square meters] of good soil), . . ."
----

We were talking garden soils so she segues into forestry. She is either
dense or a troll.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives...rthworms/index
..html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

On Jun 26, 10:50*pm, "songbird" wrote:

* all these chemicals that plants make to defend
themselves from predators (including herbivores/
omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing
some damage and perhaps organic gardening
which increases certain chemicals may be increasing

Interesting point, obviously the plants have no idea what chemicals
they produce contributes to human wellness nor do they care

and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/



....but I wanted songbird to do the work.

That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't
thought about their takeover affecting native species.

It stands to reason that they would, and that that they would be a
problem.

In article
,
fsadfa wrote:

On Jun 26, 10:50*pm, "songbird" wrote:

* all these chemicals that plants make to defend
themselves from predators (including herbivores/
omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing
some damage and perhaps organic gardening
which increases certain chemicals may be increasing
Consider your source. The chemicals that organic farming increases (more
accurately: that factory farming depresses) are flavonoids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoids
Plant toxins are usually alkaloids that taste bitter, and are normally
avoided because they are repugnant.

Interesting point, obviously the plants have no idea what chemicals
they produce contributes to human wellness nor do they care
Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they
are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.

and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet

Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/



...but I wanted songbird to do the work.

That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't
thought about their takeover affecting native species.

It's not a matter of native species. Apparently, northern forests have
adapted to piles of un-decomposed leaves. The invasive earthworms do
just what all gardeners want them to do, they decompose the leaf litter,
thereby changing the forest environment. It is my understanding that
this changed environment "may" threaten some species of trees, and
plants, but has not done so, so far. Probably need a forester to answer
this question.



It stands to reason that they would, and that that they would be a
problem.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene