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Old 30-06-2010, 07:49 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article wildbilly-DC0460.08400230062010@c-61-68-245-
199.per.connect.net.au, says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,

says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/



...but I wanted songbird to do the work.

That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't
thought about their takeover affecting native species.


It's not a matter of native species. Apparently, northern forests have
adapted to piles of un-decomposed leaves. The invasive earthworms do
just what all gardeners want them to do, they decompose the leaf litter,
thereby changing the forest environment. It is my understanding that
this changed environment "may" threaten some species of trees, and
plants, but has not done so, so far. Probably need a forester to answer
this question.


Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down mulch
and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the colder
northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.

Gotta fly...
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Old 30-06-2010, 10:51 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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On Jun 30, 11:30*am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they
are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.


you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you

and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet


Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--


facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO
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Old 01-07-2010, 01:13 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
phorbin wrote:
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:08 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article b3ee3ed1-0e4d-41cb-a392-7e7aab3978e8
@i9g2000prn.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jun 30, 11:30*am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they
are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.


you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you


Life isn't 100% good for us but look at how hard we hang onto it.

There are a lot of assumptions you can't make about plants.


and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet


Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--


facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO


It's not cheap calories so much as it is the type of calories and the
combinations they come in.

If by "everything else", you mean reasonable eating habits and common
sense, I agree.

I suggest that having sugars, starches, fats and salt in certain
combinations acts on the brain in much the way that drugs do.

I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study
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Old 01-07-2010, 03:11 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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"Billy" wrote in message news:wildbilly-
fsadfa wrote:


and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet


Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.


Note to self: read all of thread before responding - someone may have
already made the point you're about to.




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Old 01-07-2010, 03:23 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article
,
fsadfa wrote:

On Jun 30, 11:30*am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they
are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.


you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you


And you can't make the assumption that organic farming is making a
traditional food more toxic.

and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet


Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--


facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO


Not if the cheap calories that are causing life shortening illnesses;
metabolic syndrome includes obesity, hypertension, diabetes, high
cholesterol. One of the reasons that grain was processed was because
pests avoided it in favor of whole grains.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:23 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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phorbin wrote:
....
Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down
mulch and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the
colder northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.


this is a fact, also the removing of
the leaf cover opens up the forest
to more deer grazing and digging
which is very destructive and
challenges the previously less
exposed species further. it's
a keystone change.

and now here in Michigan we
have wild pigs getting established.
you think deer/raccoons cause
garden troubles...


songbird

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Old 01-07-2010, 04:29 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Billy wrote:
....
We were talking garden soils so she segues into forestry. She is
either dense or a troll.


we were talking about
feeding the world using
organic methods vs.
current agri-chem-oil.

asides and tangents happen
in usenet.


songbird (for most bird species the male sings
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:46 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


OMG!!!!!! That is simply appalling! True junk food, but that category
includes just about anything that involves any degree of processing!


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Old 01-07-2010, 05:13 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Billy wrote:
In article fsadfa wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:30 am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise),
they are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be
eaten.


you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you


And you can't make the assumption that organic farming is making a
traditional food more toxic.


you can't assume that traditional foods are
less toxic to begin with.

i didn't even know until a few weeks ago
that rhubarb can be troublesome if you
eat it shortly after a frost.


and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then
ever on mainly a corn syrup diet

Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--


facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO


Not if the cheap calories that are causing life shortening illnesses;
metabolic syndrome includes obesity, hypertension, diabetes, high
cholesterol. One of the reasons that grain was processed was because
pests avoided it in favor of whole grains.


one of many reasons. shelf life/storage concerns,
uniformity of texture/moisture levels, avoiding rancidity
(removing the germ/oils), residual fungal toxins, and of
course getting rid of the impurities to a greater extent.
as one person said "no rat/mice feces is the acceptable
level in flour used to bake my bread!" or at least they
feel psychologically better if the word "bleach" is used
for the remains. i don't, i like whole grain multi-grain
breads and if there's a rat dropping in it i probably
won't notice because of the toasted sesame seeds
anyways.

the stuff about too much sugar is probably true,
yet the fault of cheap calories is not the companies
producing but the consumers who are buying and
feeding their kids this stuff repeatedly (not in
moderation as a treat) and then letting them sit
around all day and play video games.


songbird



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Old 01-07-2010, 05:48 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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FarmI wrote:
fsadfa wrote:
songbird wrote:


all these chemicals that plants make to defend
themselves from predators (including herbivores/
omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing
some damage and perhaps organic gardening
which increases certain chemicals may be increasing


Interesting point, obviously the plants have no idea what chemicals
they produce contributes to human wellness nor do they care


not directly as they don't "mentate" (there
is rumor most people don't either ), but
if they kill off all of their seed dispersers
then they will eventually be outdone by
the other plants that are "nicer".

it's an interesting dance that they
must do, protect their green stuff
from predation, but make their
fruits yummy so that they get their
seeds moved. Mr. Pollan in
_the Botany of Desire_ is very
good at observing this dance in
several forms.


and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet


we can credit medical science for most of
this change (not diet). if diet were a major
contributor to health i know many children
who should be dead. they live off a very
restricted diet of primarily heavily processed
nutritionally poor foods, but somehow they
manage to grow taller than me, they graduate
from high school with honors, play sports at
a high level, etc.

medical science might even be going fast
enough to keep these people healthy and
functioning long past what they would be
otherwise blowing out kidneys and hearts
due to long term poor diet. i believe it's a
race at the moment and junk food is winning.

why it is winning is simple, the brain loves
sugar, salts and lipids and makes sure to
get those. it's very hard to avoid junk food.


songbird
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:12 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
We were talking garden soils so she segues into forestry. She is
either dense or a troll.


we were talking about
feeding the world using
organic methods vs.
current agri-chem-oil.

asides and tangents happen
in usenet.


songbird (for most bird species the male sings


Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:50:20
"actually, what i am wondering more and more
about is while i'm sure that some of the things
that plants make are ok for us, many other
substances are either going to be somewhat
toxic or neutral and the end result is that the liver
is the primary sorting ground. so any nutritional
studies which do not analyze long term liver
function/toxicity are basically crap.

all these chemicals that plants make to defend
themselves from predators (including herbivores/
omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing
some damage and perhaps organic gardening
which increases certain chemicals may be increasing
the burden on the liver. we really are not very far
along in this sort of "entire system" analysis when it
comes to all the chemicals the body can ingest
and the waste products and how they are transported
and etc... some things are stored in fats and thus in
the fatty cells in the body. some things come out of
the fats given certain diets and such, etc. all of this
is not really completely understood either.

take it all in combination and we are many years
from "knowledge" in the sense of completeness, but
at least we are on the way if we don't manage to do
ourselves in first. it's a race IMO. considering what
we knew a hundred years ago we've made a lot of
progress, but much of what we know now is still
likely to be flat out wrong. i trust science to figure
it out eventually, i do not trust "organic religion" any
more than i trusted "atkins diet religion" when that
became a craze." (quotation marks are mine, lack of punctuation, and
capitals, is all songbird's)
-------

So that is what we were talking about, this crazy organic gardening
thing. You know, the way in which all food was grown before 1945.

So now you propose that eating the way we did before 1945, and reaping
the benefit of flavonoids as we did before 1945 is some kind of "organic
religion".
----

Then on Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:53:45, I try to show carbon sequestration
in the soil, in part by describing the flora and fauna found in good
garden soil, and you are off to the races with "forest floor ecologies".
We were discussing organic gardening, and suddenly this bright, flashy
thing came to your mind, that had nothing to do with what we were
discussing, and now it's "Save the Leaf Litter". Are you ADHD by any
chance?

I repeat. You are either very dense or a troll.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:16 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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"songbird" wrote in message
...
FarmI wrote:
fsadfa wrote:
songbird wrote:


all these chemicals that plants make to defend
themselves from predators (including herbivores/
omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing
some damage and perhaps organic gardening
which increases certain chemicals may be increasing


Interesting point, obviously the plants have no idea what chemicals
they produce contributes to human wellness nor do they care


not directly as they don't "mentate" (there


Please be more careful about your attributions songbird. I did not write
anything to which you have responded.


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Old 01-07-2010, 06:16 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article wildbilly-DC0460.08400230062010@c-61-68-245-
199.per.connect.net.au, says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,

says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/



...but I wanted songbird to do the work.

That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't
thought about their takeover affecting native species.


It's not a matter of native species. Apparently, northern forests have
adapted to piles of un-decomposed leaves. The invasive earthworms do
just what all gardeners want them to do, they decompose the leaf litter,
thereby changing the forest environment. It is my understanding that
this changed environment "may" threaten some species of trees, and
plants, but has not done so, so far. Probably need a forester to answer
this question.


Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down mulch
and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the colder
northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.

Gotta fly...


Wikipedia doesn't mention that any plant species have been lost. Why do
you? Can you say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that species have been lost?

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:20 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

phorbin wrote:
...
Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down
mulch and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the
colder northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.


this is a fact, also the removing of
the leaf cover opens up the forest
to more deer grazing and digging
which is very destructive and
challenges the previously less
exposed species further. it's
a keystone change.

and now here in Michigan we
have wild pigs getting established.
you think deer/raccoons cause
garden troubles...


songbird


And this has what to do with the "organic religion"? Is this ADHD again?

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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