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Old 01-07-2010, 06:21 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article
,
fsadfa wrote:

On Jun 30, 11:30*am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they
are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.


you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you

and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet


Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--


facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO


"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:26 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article fsadfa wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:30 am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise),
they are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be
eaten.

you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you


And you can't make the assumption that organic farming is making a
traditional food more toxic.


you can't assume that traditional foods are
less toxic to begin with.

i didn't even know until a few weeks ago
that rhubarb can be troublesome if you
eat it shortly after a frost.


and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then
ever on mainly a corn syrup diet

Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--

facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO


Not if the cheap calories that are causing life shortening illnesses;
metabolic syndrome includes obesity, hypertension, diabetes, high
cholesterol. One of the reasons that grain was processed was because
pests avoided it in favor of whole grains.


one of many reasons. shelf life/storage concerns,
uniformity of texture/moisture levels, avoiding rancidity
(removing the germ/oils), residual fungal toxins, and of
course getting rid of the impurities to a greater extent.
as one person said "no rat/mice feces is the acceptable
level in flour used to bake my bread!" or at least they
feel psychologically better if the word "bleach" is used
for the remains. i don't, i like whole grain multi-grain
breads and if there's a rat dropping in it i probably
won't notice because of the toasted sesame seeds
anyways.

the stuff about too much sugar is probably true,
yet the fault of cheap calories is not the companies
producing but the consumers who are buying and
feeding their kids this stuff repeatedly (not in
moderation as a treat) and then letting them sit
around all day and play video games.


songbird


"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/ma...ml?pagewanted=
1&ei=5090&en=e8328c69f0b3f4be&ex=1334894400&partne r=rssuserland&emc=rss

A few years ago, an obesity researcher at the University of Washington
named Adam Drewnowski ventured into the supermarket to solve a mystery.
He wanted to figure out why it is that the most reliable predictor of
obesity in America today is a personıs wealth. For most of history,
after all, the poor have typically suffered from a shortage of calories,
not a surfeit. So how is it that today the people with the least amount
of money to spend on food are the ones most likely to be overweight?
(cont.)
------

Seems like the problem is the distribution of wealth.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:28 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
phorbin wrote:
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


Truly, an excellent presentation.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:30 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


OMG!!!!!! That is simply appalling! True junk food, but that category
includes just about anything that involves any degree of processing!


Like the man said (I paraphrase), most modern illnesses would go away,
if we ate a paleolithic diet.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:17 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article
,
fsadfa wrote:

On Jun 30, 11:30*am, Billy wrote:

Tomato leaves are poisonous, as are rhubarb, however most poisonous
plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they
are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.


you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous,
it is 100% good for you


And you can't make the assumption that organic farming is making a
traditional food more toxic.

and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever
on mainly a corn syrup diet

Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children
aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
--


facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things

I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO


Not if the cheap calories that are causing life shortening illnesses;
metabolic syndrome includes obesity, hypertension, diabetes, high
cholesterol. One of the reasons that grain was processed was because
pests avoided it in favor of whole grains.


Another was to extend shelf life. Then wealthy style setters said it
was cool and beside dental caries can be fixed. It truly is good to
live below the salt. This when "a pox on thee" was a real curse

Gaudette 2:25 Steeleye Span Below The Salt Country MPEG audio file
2005 7/1/10 6:14 AM

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?


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Old 01-07-2010, 02:35 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article wildbilly-CE9EA3.21163430062010@c-61-68-245-
199.per.connect.net.au, says...

Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down mulch
and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the colder
northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.

Gotta fly...


Wikipedia doesn't mention that any plant species have been lost. Why do
you? Can you say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that species have been lost?

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"


A fair comment.

I have just enough time to drink my morning coffee, and rub a few
thoughts together and say something mildly irksome. Then I'm away to
weed someone's garden.

I'm reasoning on the fly and not claiming my reasoning as a statement of
fact. Someone else may have the facts. It's summer busy season and right
now I have just a little time for reasoning, and no time for research.

I trust Wikipedia up to a point.

I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that species have been lost but to
work that one out properly I would probably have to be able to go to the
native peoples' and ask if their oral tradition names plants that have
vanished from the landscape and at least correlate the loss with the
change in forest floor. -- Or maybe someone's already done the work.

Anyway, coffee's finished. NOT looking forward to today.

I have a giant hogweed to deal with. I'm glad it's in someone else's
garden.

Wish me luck.
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Old 01-07-2010, 03:12 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article wildbilly-CE9EA3.21163430062010@c-61-68-245-
199.per.connect.net.au, says...

Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down mulch
and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the colder
northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.

Gotta fly...


Wikipedia doesn't mention that any plant species have been lost. Why do
you? Can you say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that species have been lost?

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"


A fair comment.

I have just enough time to drink my morning coffee, and rub a few
thoughts together and say something mildly irksome. Then I'm away to
weed someone's garden.

I'm reasoning on the fly and not claiming my reasoning as a statement of
fact. Someone else may have the facts. It's summer busy season and right
now I have just a little time for reasoning, and no time for research.

I trust Wikipedia up to a point.

I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that species have been lost but to
work that one out properly I would probably have to be able to go to the
native peoples' and ask if their oral tradition names plants that have
vanished from the landscape and at least correlate the loss with the
change in forest floor. -- Or maybe someone's already done the work.

Anyway, coffee's finished. NOT looking forward to today.

I have a giant hogweed to deal with. I'm glad it's in someone else's
garden.

Wish me luck.


Go get 'em. This does seem to be more of a wintery discussion, when we
have more time to chew on it. I'm afraid that I let myself get ****ed
off (note to Aussies: this is American ****ed off ;O) The thought that
going back to traditional agriculture was going to poison the food
supply, is just profoundly dumb. If anything, to be healthy, we should
step away from agriculture altogether, and return to hunter-gathering. I
know, right now it doesn't seem to have a future either.
http://www.environnement.ens.fr/pers.../mistake_jared
_diamond.pdf

Good luck with that hogweed.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 03:31 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

all these chemicals that plants make to defend
themselves from predators (including herbivores/
omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing
some damage and perhaps organic gardening
which increases certain chemicals may be increasing


Interesting point, obviously the plants have no idea what chemicals
they produce contributes to human wellness nor do they care


not directly as they don't "mentate" (there
is rumor most people don't either ), but
if they kill off all of their seed dispersers
then they will eventually be outdone by
the other plants that are "nicer".


Try to get it into that dormant organ that resides between your ears,
that "organic agriculture" doesn't increase flavonids, it simply doesn't
suppress them as insecticides do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavono...gical_activity

Biological roles
Flavonoids are widely distributed in plants fulfilling many functions.
Flavonoids are the most important plant pigments for flower coloration
producing yellow or red/blue pigmentation in petals designed to attract
pollinator animals.
Flavonoids secreted by the root of their host plant help Rhizobia in the
infection stage of their symbiotic relationship with legumes like peas,
beans, clover, and soy. Rhizobia living in soil are able to sense the
flavonoids and this triggers the secretion of Nod factors, which in turn
are recognized by the host plant and can lead to root hair deformation
and several cellular responses such as ion fluxes and the formation of a
root nodule.
They also protect plants from attacks by microbes, fungi[3] and insects.
[edit]
Potential for biological activity
Flavonoids (specifically flavanoids such as the catechins) are "the most
common group of polyphenolic compounds in the human diet and are found
ubiquitously in plants".[4] Flavonols, the original bioflavonoids such
as quercetin, are also found ubiquitously, but in lesser quantities.
Both sets of compounds have evidence of health-modulating effects in
animals which eat them.
The widespread distribution of flavonoids, their variety and their
relatively low toxicity compared to other active plant compounds (for
instance alkaloids) mean that many animals, including humans, ingest
significant quantities in their diet. Resulting from experimental
evidence that they may modify allergens, viruses, and carcinogens,
flavonoids have potential to be biological "response modifiers", such as
anti-allergic, anti-inflammatory,[5] anti-microbial[6] and anti-cancer
activities shown from in vitro studies.[7]
[edit]
Antioxidant activity in vitro
Flavonoids (both flavonols and flavanols) are most commonly known for
their antioxidant activity in vitro.
Consumers and food manufacturers have become interested in flavonoids
for their possible medicinal properties, especially their putative role
in prevention of cancers and cardiovascular diseases. Although
physiological evidence is not yet established, the beneficial effects of
fruits, vegetables, and tea or even red wine have sometimes been
attributed to flavonoid compounds rather than to known micronutrients,
such as vitamins and dietary minerals.[8]
Alternatively, research conducted at the Linus Pauling Institute and
evaluated by the European Food Safety Authority indicates that,
following dietary intake, flavonoids themselves are of little or no
direct antioxidant value.[9][10] As body conditions are unlike
controlled test tube conditions, flavonoids and other polyphenols are
poorly absorbed (less than 5%), with most of what is absorbed being
quickly metabolized and excreted. The increase in antioxidant capacity
of blood seen after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not
caused directly by flavonoids themselves, but most likely is due to
increased uric acid levels that result from metabolism of
flavonoids.[11] According to Frei, "we can now follow the activity of
flavonoids in the body, and one thing that is clear is that the body
sees them as foreign compounds and is trying to get rid of them."
[edit]
Other potential health benefits
[edit]
Cancer
Physiological processing of unwanted flavonoid compounds induces
so-called Phase II enzymes that also help to eliminate mutagens and
carcinogens, and therefore may be of value in cancer prevention.
Flavonoids could also induce mechanisms that may kill cancer cells and
inhibit tumor invasion.[11] UCLA cancer researchers have found that
study participants who ate foods containing certain flavonoids, such as
catechins found in strawberries and green and black teas; kaempferol
from brussel sprouts and apples; and quercetin from beans, onions and
apples, may have reduced risk of obtaining lung cancer.[12]
Research also indicated that only small amounts of flavonoids may be
needed for possible benefits. Taking large dietary supplements likely
provides no extra benefit and may pose risks. However, certainty of
neither a benefit nor a risk has been proven yet in large-scale human
intervention trials.[11]
[edit]
Diarrhea
A study done at Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland, in
collaboration with scientists at Heinrich Heine University in Germany,
has shown that epicatechin, quercetin and luteolin can inhibit the
development of fluids that result in diarrhea by targeting the
intestinal cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator Cl*
transport inhibiting cAMP-stimulated Cl* secretion in the intestine.[13]
[edit]
Capillary stabilizing agents
Bioflavonoids like rutin, monoxerutin, diosmin, troxerutin and hidrosmin
have potential vasoprotective proprieties still under experimental
evaluation.[citation needed]
[edit]
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:04 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

phorbin wrote:
...
Sorry, native species of plant life.

The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.

Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down
mulch and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently
occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant
species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the
colder northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.


this is a fact, also the removing of
the leaf cover opens up the forest
to more deer grazing and digging
which is very destructive and
challenges the previously less
exposed species further. it's
a keystone change.

and now here in Michigan we
have wild pigs getting established.
you think deer/raccoons cause
garden troubles...


songbird


Wild Boars in Michigan? Can They survive the Michigan winters?
Excellent! I can have Prosciutto! Cool!
I have the fresh eggs, soon to have fresh milk and beef.
Now pork! No need to raise my own pigs, yesss!!!!
I never cared for venison

--
Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:10 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


OMG!!!!!! That is simply appalling! True junk food, but that category
includes just about anything that involves any degree of processing!


I am in sad shape
I make my own junk food: potato chips, peanut brittle, mayo...
However, my own processed junk food does not contain exotic chemicals
The food processor is my friend.

--
Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.


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Old 01-07-2010, 06:11 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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FarmI wrote:
....
Please be more careful about your attributions songbird. I did not
write anything to which you have responded.


sorry, people are using
different versions of quoting
than what i am used to.


songbird
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:42 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
"Dan L." wrote:


I am in sad shape
I make my own junk food: potato chips, peanut brittle, mayo...
However, my own processed junk food does not contain exotic chemicals
The food processor is my friend.


Potatoes fried at a high temp with good oil is a treat. Fresh
mayonnaise the same. Brittle with black walnut more to my liking. The
term process has much to do with scale and attention to the product in
this case food. I'd submit that poorly made home made with fresh
products beats large scale reasonable well presented foods. Style after
all is not substance by itıs very definition.
A food processor slices and dices. Food processor companies do that too
but just as Christ said 12 is enough many more and the relationship is
diminished. Cutting to sparse where it all came from and the
connection to all life. After all chickens come in a bag and milk in a
bottle and forget Veal.
Then there is the mater of grateful and being or not being and does it
work on a thymus ?

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:22 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.

Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


OMG!!!!!! That is simply appalling! True junk food, but that category
includes just about anything that involves any degree of processing!


Like the man said (I paraphrase), most modern illnesses would go away,
if we ate a paleolithic diet.


Excellent video and may have answered some questions I have.

I use to have sky high triglycerides. However, the doctor recommended a
low gluten diet. It worked within 6 month's my triglycerides was normal.
Now I wonder, by not consuming bread products, I also cut back on the
sweeteners. At the same time many Non-Gluten books also states no
consumption of HFCS. Now I am thinking, perhaps it was not the gluten,
but sweeteners that dropped the triglycerides?

I consume more honey (fructose) now than sugar, is that a good move?

The one spot hit me was the large amount of HFCS in baby formulas!

--
Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:22 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
"Dan L." wrote:


I am in sad shape
I make my own junk food: potato chips, peanut brittle, mayo...
However, my own processed junk food does not contain exotic chemicals
The food processor is my friend.


Potatoes fried at a high temp with good oil is a treat. Fresh
mayonnaise the same. Brittle with black walnut more to my liking. The
term process has much to do with scale and attention to the product in
this case food. I'd submit that poorly made home made with fresh
products beats large scale reasonable well presented foods. Style after
all is not substance by itıs very definition.
A food processor slices and dices. Food processor companies do that too
but just as Christ said 12 is enough many more and the relationship is
diminished. Cutting to sparse where it all came from and the
connection to all life. After all chickens come in a bag and milk in a
bottle and forget Veal.
Then there is the mater of grateful and being or not being and does it
work on a thymus ?


One other item one cannot find in super market other than veal, is a
meat from a rooster. My chickens are old enough to have connective
tissue that makes them better tasting (in my book). Hens for eggs and
roosters for dinner.

--
Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.
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Billy wrote:
....
-------

So that is what we were talking about, this crazy organic gardening
thing. You know, the way in which all food was grown before 1945.


false. some food was grown
organically pre 1945, but much
of the rest of it was grown in a
kind of slow motion slash and
burn agriculture. the slash and burn
was not tropical forests, but the
result is still the same, the topsoil
is used up in many places and
there is no cheap fix.

have you made any claims about
pre-history and sustainabilty? other
than your general waving of the word
organic at it, but i suspect that much
of what you think about pre-history
isn't accurate either. i'll admit i don't
know either.


So now you propose that eating the way we did before 1945, and reaping
the benefit of flavonoids as we did before 1945 is some kind of
"organic religion".


it is if science eventually shows that
the pathways that flavonoids take in
the body are not universally beneficial
then my point is valid. i mentioned the
liver in specific because it is vital to
any debate about nutritional health
and various effects from different
sources.

also, there is such a thing as too
much of a substance not being a
good thing. folic acid, vitamin A,
copper, selenium, iron, and many
others, required in small amounts,
but beyond that amount possibly
toxic. what makes you think that
flavonoids escape that type of problem?
do they flush out of the body without
any cellular intervention -- does the
liver not have to regulate them or
their byproducts? i'll admit i don't
know, i'm not sure the science is in
on them completely. or at least i
would be very surprised if any
reputable scientist says they are a
100% solved item. there's much we
still do not know.


----

Then on Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:53:45, I try to show carbon sequestration
in the soil, in part by describing the flora and fauna found in good
garden soil,


your effort failed, most people
agree with me that healthy garden
soil does not sequester carbon, for
the most part it cycles it.

if you want to argue that changing
poor soils to better sequesters carbon
then i'll give you that, but that is still a
small and limited amount compared
to what is actually needed. and then,
eventually the poor soil improves to
the point where it mostly cycles carbon
again, but it is not the same degree
of carbon sink as compared to a forest.
but even the mature forest will be a
relatively carbon neutral cycle.

note: there were some interesting
hints in the literature i scanned about
some sequestration by certain bacteria
in soil that already had charcoal/char/etc
in it, but i'm not sure this is a phenomena
that will be repeatable world wide. it
might require tropical jungle conditions
with a certain level of moisture or some
other factors not very transferrable. i.e.
the science is still out on this. a small
glimmer there from what i've seen so far.
i'm always looking for more such hints
of hope.


I repeat. You are either very dense or a troll.


most often i'm amused, but whatever makes
you happy.


songbird

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