On Fri, 27 May 2011 00:10:31 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:


"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water
, It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non
burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)

Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.



Its not very deficient. All I wanted to know is why this stuff dont
burn.

1) It isn't very concentrated in soluble salts to start with
2) You are applying it in VERY dilute solution

And why isnt it commonly used.

Availability, marketing, fashion, ignorance,............

Because it jump starts whatever I use it on.
bigtime.


Not knowing the composition of this mix I am guessing but it may
contain beneficial trace elements. OTOH maybe your observation is
subject to confirmation bias. There is a lot of it around.

David

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa
meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration
is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that
is
why it can burn plants?

It's bleedingly obvious that he's not saying that. Your strawman is
silly.

Fran, Booby, first David said that the cause of fertilizer burning was
concentrated salts.

Yes he said that (amongst other things).

Then he asks me,"How do you know there are no salts
in lucerne meal?"
This I found to be clever and, simultaneously, a sinister attempt at
miss direction as I wasted time trying to look-up salt contents of
plants, instead of working in the garden. (Why is David so un-American?
Oh, right, he's from over the rain-bow ;O) Anyway, what's a boot to the
groin among us gardeners?

Yes he also asked you that too.

The ONLY cause of fertilizer burn that David addressed
was salt (any freakin' kind of salt). To what do you ascribe the ability
of chook poo to burn plants? Hmmmm?

Sigh. I don't know and I don't care either. I've never yet burned any
plant with chicken poop, and that is whether I've taken a pile of it
straight from under the night perch or just used yard scrapings.

And I'll bet David or you haven't burned plants with chook poop either.

My beef was about the introduction of the strawman when it is obvious that
David was talking about concentrations of manure. It is because we
understand concentrations that we haven't burned anything despite decades of
gardening. Strawmen are becoming a bete noir with me as seemingly they are
becoming the new vogue all over usenet - I'm beginning to think the origin
of it must result from infected water or some viral disease.

Don't you just love a good conspiracy? ;O) Although I must admit some
confusion as to the strawman (C'est qui?). David addressed the burning
abilities of chemical fertilizers (they're salts), but he didn't speak
to organic fertilizers. I tried to fill the gap by questioning the salt
content of organic fertilizers, and riposting with the phytotoxic
effects of ammonia.

Sadly, I have burned plants with chook-poo, but not for some great time
now as I've become frugal in my application of it (18lb/100sq.ft.). I've
also managed to burn plants (squash) with coffee grounds :O(any salts
should have been long gone), go figure. I've since restricted the use of
fresh coffee grounds to potatoes and blue berries.

Always nice chatting you up. Here's hoping that your bête noirs don't
become nuits blanches ;O)
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

In article ,
"DogDiesel" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water
, It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non
burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)

Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.



Its not very deficient. All I wanted to know is why this stuff dont
burn.
And why isnt it commonly used.
Because it jump starts whatever I use it on.
bigtime.

If you add it "neat", it will burn your plants. Dilution is the
important factor. Conventional wisdom has it that if something is good,
more must be better . . . . NOT. The benefits from fish emulsion come
from many bi-monthly feedings of your plant. Pouring a jug of it on your
plant, and calling it good for the season, wouldn't be the same thing:O(

(concentration #1)(volume #1) = (concentration #2)(volume #2)

The above formula, disregarding the obvious joke, allows you to adjust
the concentration, if you know the original concentration, you can
figure the volume to which it needs to be diluted to arrive at a desired
lower concentration. It will work with dry manures as well, if you use
weight instead of volumes.

Overcast with more rain predicted for tomorrow.
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2011 00:10:31 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:


"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water
, It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non
burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)

Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.



Its not very deficient. All I wanted to know is why this stuff dont
burn.

1) It isn't very concentrated in soluble salts to start with
2) You are applying it in VERY dilute solution

And why isnt it commonly used.
My guess is that it stinks.

Availability, marketing, fashion, ignorance,............

Because it jump starts whatever I use it on.
bigtime.


Not knowing the composition of this mix I am guessing but it may
contain beneficial trace elements. OTOH maybe your observation is
subject to confirmation bias. There is a lot of it around.

David
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

On May 25, 8:32*am, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*David Hare-Scott wrote:




Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down.

This truly is USDA Prime 100% Unadulterated Bull Shit!

(political propaganda snipped)

You will never get the answer to "How do you know this?" David. He
has already re-framed his faux pas to "facts" he can weasel
word .....so down the rabbit hole he goes, again

The burning rate is not specifically associated with natural and synthetic You can save the plant easily with manure directly from chicken, There are about as natural as you can get. Due to the fact that this is common with the synthetic, shop, bought, that they are very
concentrated, with little or no fiber or water and they are mostly or completely soluble, so it is very It's easy to over dose.

In article
,
Gunner wrote:

On May 25, 8:32*am, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*David Hare-Scott wrote:




Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down.

This truly is USDA Prime 100% Unadulterated Bull Shit!

(political propaganda snipped)

You will never get the answer to "How do you know this?" David. He
has already re-framed his faux pas to "facts" he can weasel
word .....so down the rabbit hole he goes, again

David Hare-Scott
On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.


David,
sorry to have to use this wacko's post to reply to an old discussion
about whether only salts from commercial chemical fertilizers can burn
plant roots, or whether they can be burned by ammonia from decomposing
proteins as well. I was rummaging around old "postings", and found this.

It is part of an ancient discussion that Fran and I had about the merits
of fresh vs. aged organic fertilizers (poop).

From: "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible
Subject: Ping Billy
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:54:34 +1000

snippity, snippity, snip

The Rodale book of composting*By Deborah L. Martin, Grace Gershuny
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...lpg=PA123&dq=N
PK+%22fresh+manure%22&source=web&ots=40vqJHGGn4&si g=i3jd5aL_vv2kQE0cegX6u
vfsoe8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=resul t

I have found the Rodale books are good ones so what it said made sense
to me.

It says of fresh vs rotted/aged manure that:
i) in the composting process, manure can lose up to half it's moisture
content and thus concentrate nutrients
ii) nitrogen in composted manure is fixed whereas in fresh, it's soluble
iii) solubility of P and K is greater in composted manure
and on P.125 it says

that "when manure is added directly to the soil, it
generally releases highly soluble nitrates that behave similarly to
chemical fertilisers,

** as well as ammonia, which can burn plant roots and interfere with
seed germination." **
----

I would have liked to taken the credit for finding this quote, but we
can't know or remember everything, and that is why we are here, to get a
little help from our friends ;O)

Thank you, Fran.

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

On Jun 26, 10:27*am, Billy wrote more stupid
BS:...

"...that "when manure is added directly to the soil, it
generally releases highly soluble nitrates that behave similarly to
chemical fertilisers"


Really little billy?

Seems its the Ammonia Hydroxide concentration breakdown from fresh
manure that "burns" plants. So why does this organic chemical
behave similarly to
"chemical fertilisers" ?

Hummm? So I wonder if the chemicals might be similar because they ARE
the same? Wouldn't it be weird to discover that organic stuff you
worship so much makes the very salts as the devil Chemfertie thingie
you so ignorately use in your old think hippie political diatribes?
Wow, that would be weird and make your many stupid cherry picked
Amazon “citations” so ….well, ignorant comes to mind.

So again, David tops ya billy.